Things I wish were in Horizons.

[Ken]

Do you know what a conditional statement is?

Where they have something like this for tageting:

if(target.isEnemy)
{
//Attack code goes here.
}
else
{
//Friendly code goes here.
}

They change it to:

if(target.isEnemy || (area.isFriendlyHostile && target.isFriend))
{
//Attack code goes here.
}
else
{
//Friendly code goes here.
}

That is pseudo-code and is likely nothing like the logic or object properties in the actual game code, but the point is they may very well simply be able to change some conditions of behavior in some action code.

I would also bet that alignment is still in the engine and is the mechanism by which they determine friend or enemy. They simply hid it from the player as they turned it into a two value boolean friend/enemy, versus degrees of alignment. Or the degrees of alignment are there still and affect under the hood aspects we don't realize.

On to the lore of Istaria. Who cares? A set of races united against a common foe? Sure, they can all be united against a common foe, but still be at each others throats or trying to profit or gain power in ways that others would not like...but all for the common goal of defeating the foe of all people of the planet. Many unscrupulous people do things for the common good that not all those commoners would agree with (*cough* Bush *cough*).

[imported_Ssilmath]

Ok, I told myself I wouldn't do this, but time to take the offensive...

Ken, have you seen the code for HZ? Do you know for certain that a PvP element was just hid from us...please, if you have this concrete proof, then show me, so that I may benefit from your wisdom...If not, then just stfu...

As for PvP in the game, if it happens, then cool...if not then cool...But the whole point of the game is not to fight each other, but to fight the enemy that threatens us all...that is the point of HZ, the core of it, and changing that will anger many people who have said, in no uncertain terms, that they do not like the idea of PvP...

Gilresk is correct that if it is implemented, there will be an uproar to balance the classes against each other, to expand the PvP area, to nerf other classes cause they are uber, etc...AE doesn't need that headache...

And please do not bring RL polotics into this forum, there is an off topic channel for that...it looks unproffesional and childish if you do...

[Ken]

I'd say the attack I am under shows who is childish and thinks they are uberspecial for having been here first.

Anyway, as I said, that is pseudo-code...if you do not understand me, then just don't reply. Thanks! ;)

As far as class balance. OMFG, they are already majorly unbalanced when weighing which class you want to play. I am spending most of my time trying to determine strengths and weaknesses instead of playing the class (which can also be seen as a style of play) I naturally prefer. YOu don't have to have PvP to be thouroughly annoyed by the lack of balance in this game. Did I mention the fact that I can go back to the same group of creatures after upgrading my armor and they are now doing twice as much damage? *nerf* *Bunker Busting Bush Nerf* Mr. forum cop!

/me waits for you to go running to a moderator to attempt to explain that something I have done is a bannable offense.

[Gilresk]

I understand the pseudo-code, I'm a programmer. The problem is that it only works if you're only going to have everyone against everyone else, and therefore, no friendly rezzes or heals to anyone else in the zone. Also, unless they call that out to a subroutine, that could mean changing that line of code in many, many places, some of which might not be desired. Possibly it could be a simple search and replace, but coding is rarely that simple, there are also quirky bits that get missed and cause no end of trouble. It could be done, but it's hardly a quick change. It's not a simple addition, like adding customization to armor, like currently exists with weapons, because in that case it would simply be building on part of their existing structure.

I'm also fairly certain that any old code from when it was meant to have alignments has been long since ditched, since they basically scrapped everything (including an old graphics engine) when they had a change in management and direction of the game in development.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Once again, you have taken what I said out of context, ignoring the bulk of what I have said and instead focusing on what you want to hear...If I told you you were 100% right, I am sure that there could be some way you would be angry and feel I had attacked you personally...

Go back and read, with an objective mind what I have said, and you will understand my meaning...Till then, I guess I will be a mean, attacking, childish forum cop to you...

Though I would like to point out that I have not jumped down the throats of people who disagreed with my suggestions (As far as I can see)...I'll listen to their points and try and argue around them, or listen to their experience...

I'm not perfect, but until someone comes along who deserves a good attacking, I try and at least stay open minded...

[Ken]

Maybe I should just attempt to return the $30 POS I bought (just a few days ago)before discovering this vaporware is now a free download and wash my hands of those that cannot fathom a change even if it is a choice of servers or where to play. I mean, to believe that adding characteristics to an item type that was added to another item type previously is any less difficult than changing some if/switch statements and doing some QA (just as you'd do with any change, I hope) without knowing the code first-hand, is ridiculous. I never attempted to imply I knew the code structure and neither have you, yet its just fine for you to attempt to paint a dismal "this engine has no way to do it" picture. Think about it.

BioWare said bags of holding and other containers were not possible in Infinity Engine games either, until us 3rd party game modders showed them how to do it in BG1 with a store file and some AI trickery. They then proceeded to implement a cleaner tweaked version of that method for official content in IWD1 and 2 and BG2. So, tell me again how unweildy and jello like the codebase for Horizons is, If it is so fragile, then maybe I should be doing daily backup images of my harddrive! *yikes!* Thanks for letting me know that Horizons code is so terribly convoluted, mysteriousand unstable.

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

Gosh....did I just walk in to a kindergarten? *looks around for food on walls and pulled hair*

Look, you all have opposing views. Why insult people for them. If you don't like pvp then you say hey, most of your ideas are good cept I don't really care for pvp with a short statement as to why you don't. Instead this is turned into bixby's flame war and over what? Opinions? Ken is entitled to his opinions. Some may agree...some may not...jeez you guys are acting like some dev is going to read this and do EXACTLY what he suggested and pissed in your pudding. He's made some suggestions. Why can't Ken have his opinion and let others that share it have space to discuss it without opposition drowning everyone out and scaring them from ever daring to express their opinions? People that agree with him are going to be hesitant to post because of the fear of mob mentality. No one wants to be attacked for their opinions. I think Gilresk and Ssilmath have let us all know how against pvp they are. I myself prefer not to have it, but I'd be open to certain islands or neighborhoods or areas where its allowed. I'll just stay out of them. Sorta like a tv show you don't like...turn the channel...no one is making you watch it.
As long as it doesn't get turned into the nightmare some MMO's are why not have it in the game, implemented properly and with out chance of pker's hurting people who don't wish to go pvp. Parts of Horizon have "Danger" signs. so why not signs saying "PvP area" then people are adequately warned and if they go in anyhow and get jacked then they chose to do it. But fighting like little boys over opinions is a tad silly don't you think?

IMO *casts flame shield*

[Ken]

Good points. I apologize for retorting to opposing opinions. I suspect we can each point at each other and claim "he wouldn't stop, I had to reply." [:#]

[pi] pizza anyone?

[Aziroth]

Calm down Ken. Flaming others will get people less likely to listen. In the current state of things the last thing devs should focus on is adding PVP when they could work on fixing all crashing to desktop issues with construction, the bugged quests, tweaking the spawn engine to a level that everyone is happy with, etc. Right now the adventure schools are anything, but balanced so PVP wouldn't work just yet. Also the dev team is working on getting lairs, ancient rite of passage and thats just off the top of my head that they are trying to get it in by sometime in December.

I've played Everquest, Shadowbane, UO, RO, along with Horizons so I seen all sides of the spectrum so I seen the good and bad points of it.

[Ken]

Sure, I understand these things...which makes me angry they are charging premium monthly fees and not much break on annual cycles. This is beta quality.

I am not attempting to prioritize my hopes above/before anything (did I?), I am simply stating *my* opinion. I thought this forum board was called "Suggestions", not "What bugs I hope get fixed first." ;)

*Ken looks for a flame in this reply and cannot find one. *click Post*

[Henry Redacre]

I want to apologize to Ken first off. My original reply way up at the top there was never meant to "shoot down" ideas, and after re-reading my own post, I can see how it can be construed that I was trying to blow off his ideas. Sorry about that Ken, my bad. hehe

I've spent a fair bit of time thinking about my own ideas, suggestions, wishes, etc., on what I'd like to see in game, and even my (really very uneducated) guesses about how it might even be implemented. That being said, I tend to think some of my ideas are actually pretty good ones, so I know how I'd feel if I took the time to think about something, put some polish on it, proudly present it, and watch half a dozen people rip it to shreds for various reasons, rather than offer some constructive feedback about it. Me, being human and all, would prolly get all bitter towards those folks, and either keep my mouth shut about my suggestions in the future, or else tear apart their ideas simlpy on principle, rather than objective consideration.

Anyway, that being said, when I ask questions in a "feedback" post or reply, I'm not doing so to be a jerk, I'm actually asking questions because I'm curious. When Ken replied, and explained how Resting/Inns could be implemented, I genuinely admit, I hadn't thought of that. The only way I had it pictured in my head was from the old Dargon Warrior days, where teh screen goes dark for a second, a little chime plays, and the game tells you "8 hours has passed..." heheh. So yeah, I really think that the current implementation of Taverns (and possibly a new "Inn" structure even) could very well benefit from this sort of thing. For instance:

After gaining a few Death Points, and wearing down your stamina for a few hours (personally, I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of having a "stamina bar", but lets roll with for the moment =) ), you recall to your plot (again, just work with me here), sorely shuffle over to the Tavern at the end of the road, and pull up a chair at a table in the corner. Perhaps, "anchored" to the building "bone", is an Area Effect called "Rejuvenation" or some such, which slightly steps up the rate at which you regain your stamina, as well as slightly stepping up the rate at which your DPs fade. Different tiered furniture could affect the rate change in different ways - Tier 1 "Wooden Stools" arent too comfy, so cause your regen to be slower than, say, a Tier 5 "Overstuffed Chair".. Also, while in the Tavern, there is of course food to be had, which can also shave off chunks of your DP at a time, and/or refill chunks of your stamina as well. This whole picture could be considered "resting", as opposed to actually trying to figure out how to sleep (which, I wasn't very effective at doing earlier, personally).
So really, whether you agree, or disagree with the concept, it's simple enough to say "I don't really like that idea" and either other a suggestion on how to take the concept, and modify it a bit to where you *do* like it (thats called constructive feedback, yay!), or else, end your post the way it is.

Now, as for the PvP aspect of the whole thing. I'd love to see it to some degree. *ESPECIALLY* if we ever get my oh-so-beloved Rogue/Assasin/Thief(/Bard too maybe?) class put in game. One thing I will absolutely be 100% stubborn on, is that no one else could possibly want this class more than me. =P
Two warriors duking it out in a duel in the arena over there? Perfect, while they're distracted, I'll just Stealth my sneaky little arse, and go lift a few coin from them while they're not looking. Maybe one of those warriors smacked me around a few days ago, and so graciously gave me a Death Point.. Well then, after a discreet approach, a dagger between his shoulderblades, or a stiletto to his kidney might return the favor. Also, as much as I like crafting, standing in a field, plinking away at an Iron Node while looking over my shoulder for an Iron Golem isnt even on the same Fear Chart as standing in a field, plinking away at an Iron Node, while watching over my shoulder for another player. I'd definitely be interested in exploring the PvP aspects of the world -- given that is is implemented in a manner in which I can agree with.

Currently, while I may think PvP could add a fun new element, and even an attractive new element, I fear that if it is added, it will be done so.... awkwardly. I'd rather not see it added at all, then have it added poorly, and have it ruin what was otherwise an enjoyable game. If it were to be added, I (personally) think it would be a Herculean effort to add it in a way that I (personally) would enjoy. I'd want Thieves. I'd want Class Balancing. I'd want more varied equipment (it's a bummer when you can take a quick glance at someone, and with some quick math, know *exactly* what theyre capabilities are). I'd like layered clothing (a robe or cloak over some armor can really hinder someone elses ability to evaluate your equipment). I'd like Mounts. I'd like a synchronized Day/Night cycle, that actually cast shadows, and gives Rogues ways to disappear into the night. I'd like all sorts of things in order for me to be happy with a version of PvP.

MY Bottom Line: My concern over PvP being added haphazardly, and potentially crippling the game as it currently is, coupled with the fact that I personally think it would take too much Dev time, effort, and focus away from other things that I'd prefer to see first/more/sooner/faster/etc., is why I tend to lean away from a PvP aspect at this time.

Again, all that I've said are simply my opinions, and I tried to be more careful about how I wrote this post in an increased effort to make sure it didnt sound like I was tryign to shoot down anyone else's ideas.

Respectfully Open-Minded,
~ Henry

[evilkarl]

I wish for Containers that are containers, that is the items inside them do not count towards the item count in your vault, and the container has the bulk of the sum of its items.

I'm against open PvP (anywhere any time) and not to fond of pvp regions however duals however would be great, group/guild vs group/gruild duals as well. With stakes at risk for either side such as betting coin on who will win.

Introducing duals for PVP eliminates the huge requirement for class balancing (even though it is so desperately needed) required because people only accept battles they are willing to participate in.

I personally would love to do battle with some of my friends on order in my main class of spirit disciple even though I know most of them would slaughter me It would be fun

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

After gaining a few Death Points, and wearing down your stamina for a few hours (personally, I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of having a "stamina bar", but lets roll with for the moment =) ), you recall to your plot (again, just work with me here), sorely shuffle over to the Tavern at the end of the road, and pull up a chair at a table in the corner. Perhaps, "anchored" to the building "bone", is an Area Effect called "Rejuvenation" or some such, which slightly steps up the rate at which you regain your stamina, as well as slightly stepping up the rate at which your DPs fade. Different tiered furniture could affect the rate change in different ways - Tier 1 "Wooden Stools" arent too comfy, so cause your regen to be slower than, say, a Tier 5 "Overstuffed Chair".. Also, while in the Tavern, there is of course food to be had, which can also shave off chunks of your DP at a time, and/or refill chunks of your stamina as well. This whole picture could be considered "resting", as opposed to actually trying to figure out how to sleep (which, I wasn't very effective at doing earlier, personally).

After gaining a few Death Points, and wearing down your stamina for a few hours (personally, I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of having a "stamina bar", but lets roll with for the moment =) ), you recall to your plot (again, just work with me here), sorely shuffle over to the Tavern at the end of the road, and pull up a chair at a table in the corner. Perhaps, "anchored" to the building "bone", is an Area Effect called "Rejuvenation" or some such, which slightly steps up the rate at which you regain your stamina, as well as slightly stepping up the rate at which your DPs fade. Different tiered furniture could affect the rate change in different ways - Tier 1 "Wooden Stools" arent too comfy, so cause your regen to be slower than, say, a Tier 5 "Overstuffed Chair".. Also, while in the Tavern, there is of course food to be had, which can also shave off chunks of your DP at a time, and/or refill chunks of your stamina as well. This whole picture could be considered "resting", as opposed to actually trying to figure out how to sleep (which, I wasn't very effective at doing earlier, personally).


Now, as for the PvP aspect of the whole thing. I'd love to see it to some degree. *ESPECIALLY* if we ever get my oh-so-beloved Rogue/Assasin/Thief(/Bard too maybe?) class put in game. One thing I will absolutely be 100% stubborn on, is that no one else could possibly want this class more than me. =P

I like your tavern./inn thing and HA! I want the rogue/assassin class even more then you...its all i play in dnd and and fantasy pc games. I was totally bummed no rogues in Horizons....pickpocketing,rolling drunks,.mugging, murder for hire, catburgaling (oooh breaking into houses here could be ooo so fun ;) and various misdeeds are a rogues deepest enjoyment, that and suckering old ladies out of thier retirement funds (j'/k) haha

[Henry Redacre]

....... murder for hire........

I know it's not likely to ever happen, but I'd do terrible things if I thought it would increase my chances of getting "Murder" as the Epic Ability for Rogues.... for example, something like a (picks a relatively low number) 10% chance for a one-shot kill against a mob (or perhaps a scaleable percentage, based on the player/mob rating difference), with like a 3 hour recharge time or something like that. An ability that you don't get to use often, and even when you do get to use it, it's not a guaranteed success, but oh man, it's deliciously Rogue-ish, and would add a very dangerous, useful, and desireable reason to have a Rogue in your group..

Dreaming of all things Rogue-ish,
~ Henry

[Seikojin]

I think that sleep can be introduced without much hinderance to gameplay as well. They could have a camping item that you use. It could have limited uses or unlimited uses. When you use it, a timer along with an animation starts. During this time you build the fire and set a bedroll and sitting spot up. When done you sit down and rest. This could drain the all devestating stat penalties from being fatuiged (sp... BTW I spell horribly in some cases... ok alot of them). This camp can be set anywhere relatively flat. During the resting period you see some mobs appear. You have some options when breaking camp to fight them. You can leave the camp and let it start decaying or sit there until someone takes it down, or sever maintainence. Or take the time to break the camp down and put it back into your packs... There would be obvious server resource tracking, but I think this and other server end ties would be fixed up by my much funner (yes I said funner) idea: Super resource nodes!

Instead of having little nodes pop up out of the ground, have an animation (in the case of minerals and ore) of a rock comming loose and tumbling to the base of the mountain. This rock would have thousands of resource points. Players would run up to it and mine it to pieces. During the process it would shrink down at various points relative to the amount of resources it has left. When its gone, time goes by (dependant on the amount of resources it provides in comparison to a value of resources consumed to players) and another rock falls.

For trees; simmilar design in data, but just have fewer bigger treest that dont re-appear so often, or in so many packs. Or have resource trees grow to a certain resource value then die and fall, when on the ground they can be harvested until they are gone.

The same can be true for flax. Clustered feilds that are one target with many resources. When used it has to regrow.

I cant wait till digging or terrain modding can be done. Building a cave plot would be soo sweet. go down your mineshaft and pick at the walls for resources... Yeah I love that idea...

And for housing... This game has a housing system that allows for secure building placement and modification. The "plot size deed tool" idea for dynamic housing wouldnt work too well. I think dynamic housing placement would bring a heavy burden to the servers resources.

But I do agree housing needs customization (not in this thread I believe, but still a good thing to have).

On top of it all, I think there needs to be tons of more mobs, and npc's. I think towns need to have at least 5 times the number of npcs. Little stories, useless information, possibly something else for theiving and whatnot.

And speaking of npc's this brings me to questing. Ahh the mighty idea of quests. This game is filled with masive amounts of classes with very generic quests. There are alot of story based quests, which is fine and dandy. But there is little outside of this in terms of real quests. They already have the structure to make this system a million times better. they just need to tweak it. It will take a bit to write, but I have a solid idea... Ill paste it in when im done writing it (timer from being idle will run out if i do it now).

[Seikojin]

:o Sorry for the double post; this forum script is kinda lame... I went to edit my old post and it didnt automatically put my old post in the upper window... So my edit just replaced the old post. Fancy...

I basically said I though consentual or guild based PVP would be easy to do, but that for a long time in this games history have people fought for and against pvp in any and all forms.

I also said theiving would be sweet, and could work without pvp. Just steal from npcs, have guard notice players, have a bulliten board for criminal names...

I also talked about the old super spells that would destory terrain and buildings...

And I will properly edit my post next time... Sorry.

[Safire]

[*]Maybe I just haven't seen some of this yet, if so...please excuse my newbiness.

1. Thieves and thieving.
2. Inns and rental housing and the need to/benefit of sleeping.
3. Character created quests which other characters could perform.
4. Player versus player (PvP). I know many people hate this, but many love it. I find myself in the healthy middle. I think PvP should be possible in the game, however there should also be limitations, such as:
   (a) Maybe a server with PvP enabled.
   (b) Maybe only on some islands/continents is PvP enabled.
   (c) Maybe PvP is enabled on all servers, but you cannot attack a character with normal 'attack' action, you must perform a distinctly different 'attack character' action.
   (d) Maybe do as described in point c, but simply have zones/regions where guards or all NPCs will come after you and either attack or you are fined or put in jail for assault or murder. I see no problem with having 'no man's land' and 'waste lands' and 'bad neighborhoods' and 'shady towns' where you may very well be attacked if you are notwise enough to pay attention, gather information or read signs with regional laws or warnings on them.
   (e) A form of PvP which would be very interesting would be the ability to subdue and capture a prisoner/victim.
   (f) Voluntary character dueling, at a minimum, needs to be available.

[/list]


I believe these elements are missing and would greatly increase the enjoyment of the game.

Please, if you agree or disagree with my thoughts, feel free to reply. I hope that player feedback helps shape Horizons content in a way that leads to its greater and greater success. That is something that makes my own gaming more fun, after all...better and more interesting game with more people and variety in it.

please explain how there would be theinveing i mean you wouldent be able to steal from npcs (people would be rich from veilo)and from other players you wanna see someone enraged steal there pretty stuff hehe and monsters what are you gonna do steal a tuff of hair froma wolf?

[Seikojin]

[|-)] I can chime in on this. I was saying the issues stealing from NPC's could cause. Especially if the target was a cosigner.

But you could have all npc's targets. Just some like the cosigner wouldnt have anything stealable on them.

Stealing from players without a quick way to report it or do something about it is a solemn reason to not have STEALING... But Backstabing, stealth, and lockpicking would be VERY useful in PVM situations.

But yes, as far as stealing from Mobs, it would be stealing their loot. Ooo... you took a couple of copper from a maggot. Stole the weapon from a monster that doesnt use that weapon. The loot tables give a variable "random" set of loot, so stealing it wouldnt be too hard (if it were not the case, all maggots would have hide only, and skeletons would have their equipped weapons only).

Something odd I noticed. Level 35-40 mobs dont have more than single piece loot. Whats up with that? Are level 100 mobs the same?

Furthermore, if they were to add theiving for players against other players, they should add it for players to housing. And if this were the case, there would definitly have to be some reporting feature to tell guards that you have been robbed. Or NPC guards hireable for housing. Personal items would be nearly impossible to steal mainly because you would see the other person. Unless they stealthed to you. But even then you can see an item dissapear from your loot bag, and report it. Looting can add a tag onto a player so that when reported, the guards would query the characters tags and see the looted from tag and believe the victim. Then whenever said player comes near guards (there could be a timer to spread the word from one town to the next, and eventually to other Npc's) they run up, arrest, and throw in jail. Like death points, but stip the freedom away for X amount of irl time. Stealing could make you unhide. This would make it possible to get caught easier. Or Npc's could have a spot skill and notice hidden players and keep an eye on them. If the player steals, they immedialty yell about it, revealing the player, and slerting the victim. Guards would rush in and aprehend the theif. The more npc's about, the higher the chance to spot someone stealing. Like a synergy bonus. Only master theives would be able to walk into a town completly unnoticed, steal a bunch of items and leave without being caught.

Even murdering can be done this way. Theives and assassins can kill NPC's, get some loot, or access to building horde and take it. Players or time (by nightfall or sunrise) will tell the deed to guards. After X amount of time, or by the players, the name is given to the guards and townspeople. Again with the word spreading timer, and soon enough, only the master assassin will be able to get away with it.

Rewards and bounties could be placed by players against theives and assassins. Mainly theives who steal from players.

To help curb the flood of massive theft of player items, there could be a way to "lock" items to you with a magical amulet. The amulet would die out after a certain time and require more power.

Simple enough to me... Now for my quest idea...

I believe dynamic questing is possible in horzons and here are my personal ideas on what could be done.

There could be/are NPC's that offer quests. There could also be Quest givers; people who handle quests of all kinds. Including quest tokens given to them by players (like a cosigner).If done right quests can be loot from mobs.

Quests that are pregenerated by the game itself can have several stats and figures to help facilitate in a creative execution.
Hook: What starts the quest. Hooks can be things like a book found on a monsters body, given by an NPC, or found in various areas (treasure chest spawns perhaps?). The hook will lay out some kind of story leading to the trigger. This can be a story, link, or a map with coorinates.

Trigger: Where the questing actually starts. This typically will be some coorinate zone that will trigger the problem/puzzle for the quest when the player's Biote enters the zone (I think hunt quests do this already).

Resolution: The problem in the quest and its solution. This would be what you need to do; fight a mob, open a box, solve a riddle with link based answers, or type a response with X certain words included... Lost of things can be here for the problem and the solution. Very simple to make a functional.

Reward: This would be the obvious reward for completing the resolution. This could be a XP gain, an item deposited on scene, or triggered to be available for free at the quest giver, or another hook for another part of a much bigger quest.

As for player token quests... These would be very simmilar to the above but you the player would get a free quest token from the quest giver, set the values by using dropdown menus for predefined functions/wuest variables, pay for the reward by having the items and or money in your inventory, then put on the quest giver for use. You could even have something interesting like having player created quests be paid to never decay from the list. Or even have it become a quest giver quest depending on popularity by how many people take it or feedback on it (something that can be added to a logbook the questgiver can have).

Pretty simple, lots of robustness and extensibility with the way you the player can make missions up or have developer made missions given in a up front format.

Now an issue comes up. What about the current quest system. Although I would think it can be added to this system, I think it is different enough to become a major hassle to merge. So instead I say let the trainer missions and current NPC missions stay. These mission givers can offer very big, multi tiered missions that take groups days to complete if need be.

Imagine fighting some mobs, grinding for exp. One of the items in the loot is a book. The books title is something like Shard Templeston. Opening it and realize it's a journal. It details the days and nights of conquest out on the sea. And how one day a port patroller found them and nearly caught them. Now they buried their horde and left it for later retreival. But this jounral is dated some 15 years ago. In the journal you see references that lead you to believe the loot was buried on or near Dalimond. So you go looking and sure enough you find a buried treasure near a wall in Dalimond. In the box is a note from the captain of the ship who promises to return in 15 years to recover the horde. While your thingking, that would be now... A group of NPC Pirates pull into port and begin looking for the loot.

At that point you have several options. Give them the loot, take it and run, hoping they dont find you, or fight them and keep both loot hordes. You could give it up if they spot you and hopefully they will let you join them? Not! they want it to themselves of course, and try to kill you. (but it would be very interesting if a player could join an NPC villan group).

After this mission ends, its token basically is gone. It can have a respawn timer for REAL time that can be any value... minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, or years...

I think this kind of mission is a simple taste of what could be possible. I now am thinking of many ways this system itself could be used to make quests that last for years. Simply because you can have the reward be a hook.

So let me know. A link for more on pvp http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=669

[Seikojin]

Sorry *bump* I think People should paste their topic urls into here.. if this topic swarms to a dozen pages quickly, then some people will see whats going on, expecting flames and trolls come to find out theres a big discussion on changes the players would like to see... And link this topic in the Dave bowman topic on racial abilities given from racial quests...

Im adding this topic to my sig

[imported_Ssilmath]

Ok, I have got to say something about the whole theiving issue...

If I logged in one day to find that my armor or my weapon or heaven forbid my 250 silver mining pick were missing, I would be irate...If there was PvP, I would hunt down and destroy every theif in the game until one of them coughed up my stuff...but if there is no way to catch the perpetrator or punish them, then I would probably quit the game entirely...

So I am completely against anything that allows the stealing of my stuff, and if I get my gear taken, you can say goodbye to me, I'll be gone...