Things I wish were in Horizons.

[Seikojin]

:o That is why there would be ways to track the theif... And on top of that they wouldnt be able to steal from your character when your logged off... Maybe your house... But not your person...

There could be doors and windows with high level locks. In ADND the most simple of locks is soo hard to pick that most theives alone cannot pick them. So the most basic of security measures could be hard to do even for a simple thief.

This could also form a way to insure items. Have some magical house augmentation that locks items to the house. and a special button has to be used to unlock each item. That would curb the paranoia on house theft... And also be a gold sink...

Also a theif should get a mark on him for each person he steals from. That way that person alone could openly pvp the theif.

Oh heres a super idea for PVP... Allow WA characters... they have PVP... Almost the same class structure is set up for them... You'd just be undead.

Have some speed penalty or something, but with class mods and techs could be equal to a player version...

[LaughingOtter]

I disagree very, very strongly with the mere IDEA of someone being able to steal anything in the game - no matter from whom or by what means.

Stealing from one another can only be balanced by PvP - if you steal from me, I get to kill you and take all your stuff, plus whatever you got from me. The natural consequence would be a glut of high-level bullies that have everything and who roam around picking on lower-level folk, looking foranyone foolish, angry, or inexperienced enough to try to take them on. Without PvP, there is nothing to keep everyone from robbing each other blind, and that destroys the game. Why should I spend hours teching upa suit of silk cargo gear when someone can swipe it with impunity?Why putitems in my house vault when somerandom sphinctercanloot itwhenever they wish?

Why spend my moneyon a game thatallows that level ofgriefing to occur? I won't. Stealing from NPCs would be just as bad - If I consign a shoulder parrot for two gold (Hah! As if I would...) and someone nicks it off of the consigner, they just stole from me, not the consigner. I'm not even going to comment on stealing from the Vielo...

Sneaking, stealth, sniper attacks - those aspects of a rogue class could well have a place in Horizons, provided they are used against the WA alone.

PvP in the form of arena duels, by consent, may be workable. PvP zones and any form of non-consenting PVP are totally inappropriate to the game world.

The initial post in this thread asked for feedback, even disagreement. Here it is.

Fundamentally, PvP and PvE are like tofu and top sirloin - they might work together to an extent in some circumstances, but you can't plop a nice juicy steak into a cup of miso or mix chunks ofslug-belly white,slimy bean curdinto steak tartare and expect happy results.

[Ellah]

Well, my Character has a scarred left Side from a fellow Hatchling charring him pretty badly and has gotten into 2 Fights Adult Dragons have needed to break up, also he has lost 2 Teeth to another Fellow Dragon.
While yes, it was not acted out, maybe you should look into RP and find a competent group.

I did escape from NWN Online because I spawned at the N00b area and was killed 5 times by a Level 19 Paladin. Because he was collecting N00b Rags for a Quest. Thank you very much. In EVE Online,I have been PK'd several Times for daring to cross into a Territory where I could pick upthe Skill to start shootingCruise Missilesat NPC Pirates.

If you want PvP, you should consider Neverwinter Nights, which is an awesome MMO, very original and generally has alot of PvP "Social Servers", where EVERYONE is a Level 20 Ranger with Dual Wield. EQ2 is also coming out soon.

In all honesty, I do not enjoy being "pwned" by someone who is 10 Levels above me, neither do I enjoy walking through an Area and getting 5 Duel Invites, from random people none the less. And neither doI like Mining in a "Mining Ship" andgetting shot at by a "Combat Cruiser" or a "Battleship" because they feel they need to prove something.

Personally, I hate PvP, and should they allow for certain Areas that accomodate PvP, they better not put anything useful in them that I might need, because I would be royally pissed.

[Phillip]

the general understanding here is that on one side, people want certain implementations to enhance the game (ie PvP or whatever that is gravely missing in an MMORPG), and doing so will draw more subscriptions hence making HZ better in the long run.

the other side, believe that such implementation will "pissed off the current player base". this side believe that the game should be improved without such implementation and hence, making HZ better in the long run.

my take is simple: my guild had 60 solid players. it now has 6. are the 6 of us the representation of the current "player base"?

yes.

are we the "happy" representation of the current "player base"? the answer is NO.

we're either just plain STUPID or overly optimistic and excellentin abusing the term "potential". we live on it. that's all there is. we have become proffesional HOPERS.

the people that are still here, will not give HZ longevity. their numbers are so low, AE won't be able to pay the bills. in order to grow, it isn't about making the game for the leftovers, but actually making the game better for those who WERE here, or those who find it a good thing to actually be here, such extending the 7-day trial instead off removing HZ from their PCon day 6.

i don't think general PvP will work in this game. the design is flawed for such. however, arena PvP will do just fine. consentual, fun PvP. it will NOT affect the current player base. if people don't want PvP, stay away fromthe ******** arena. it isn't trivial. it doesn't take more than an IQ of 12 to see the truth in that.

one of the single aspect that give this game it's current status (which is crap), are the hardcore HZ loving types, and loving types because the game CATERS to their style, is good for them. they don't want change unless the change is good for them. they will squeal and breathe heavy if certain implementations isn't to their liking, might remind them of games past, or not having to do with their agendas or what they think HZ is SUPPOSE to be about.

they don't care if these implementations do NOT hinder them. they don't care of their character, orgameplay WILL NOT be affected. they only want what is good for them.

there is very little tolerance for change.

if HZ is suppose to be about this, then it SUX. i know it, you know it, the devs know it too.

AE, in order to make this game more apetizing, to making the number of subscription rise, will need to see through the current player base, and their corroded state of mind, and follow through with the CORRECT changes regardless.

in other words, just do it.

[Ellah]

What kind of correct changes, aside from Arena PvP are you proposing ?

[Rhaiannon]

I fall somewhere in the middle with PVP.
Yes, I think it should exist here
No I don?t think it should be everywhere

There should be an island, accessible through portals with all kinds of terrain from mountains to valleys, rivers, lakes etc, places where you can set up an ambush even.

This island and the arena in tazoon alone, would be a PVP haven. Then only way to get to this island is through the portals that would be set up in the arena in tazoon.

This island would be about 1/2 the size of lesser aradoth, with two minor towns on either end. much like lesser aradoth.

On this island, you could PVP to your hearts content, however, there can be no way to get to this island otherwise. Make it a plateau higher than a dragon can fly, or place a red barrier around it. No one can get there or escape except through the portals and recall.

On this island, you could not loot the other player, but you get points per kill you get IF the kill's rating is within 5 of your rating. This would prevent someone from logging in with a noob and killing him over and over. Each point gains your choice of encampment the point, and after enough points are gathered, the bases usability gets increased. a guard tower for 100 points, a moat for 500, things like that that would happen automatically. After a month, each of these places would be returned to their wooden palisades and no towers setup and the games begin again with a fresh start.

there would be an exit portal in each of the bases, and a bind shrine. These bases would be walled off so that there is only 1 or 2 ways in that can be defended. You could even have a capture the flag type thing going here if you can figure out how to code it. or you could have it going to where you destroy the opposing gate and bind shrine (which would respawn in 20 minutes) for a thousand or so points each. However, if both the bind shrine and the gate are destroyed, that encampment would revert to its original configuration with no extras from previously earned points.

Enjoy, flame to your hearts content, this would be a place to relax for those that enjoy pvp.

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

I think Rhaiannon has some really good ideas. :)

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

jeez Laughing Otter...lighten up...its a game and in RL you can be robbed..you gonna go kill the person? yeah it would suck to get pickpocketed but by having certain areas only (pvp) or being able to pickpocket NPC's is a good idea..they could use die rolls like in DnD and having X % chance of getting nothing or 3 copper or a silver etc. You act like it would DESTROY the entire game.

[Andrew Zozulya]

Beside more things so disired to be founden in game ( like loot...did i say loot? LOOT!, Some unusual enchances for crafters (signigically altering gameplay for wearer/wielder such "altered" item) - not tech, some ability for adventurers to change item towards thier spetiality - everything with approprietary loot, heck, may be an ability for gear to earn part of exp and advence due leveling of players) i want say some points on pvp.

PvP such it means by most unmature people is "Gank'em loot'em spell'em res'em gank'em again". Such art of behavior will for sure upset much more people as pleasant ones. And therefore i think if PvP would be put in - nothing more is requred as pvp arenas. I thnk sometime that such community as we have is only because no pvp is in game and every persone you meet is for you a partner but not potential enemy.

[Ellah]

Rhaiannon, or something like that has a good Idea. The Problem that occurs with Arena PvP is this: You will gain certain Things, 99% of the Time it's Skills, or even Items, that non PvP'ers will not, giving you an Edge over the Peacelovers.

Also I do agree with the Fact that the Community is so good, because there are no Baddies on the PC Side.

[Seikojin]

:o I have noticed something common here... Alot of people who don't like the idea of PvP either
A. Got PK'd early on or alot.
B. Heard and seen the whining by people from group A.

The PvP we are talking about is not Fellucia, or relm. Its like a fighting pit in Tazoon where people have to go through gates to get in.

I don't like that idea at all personally. I think it reeks of problems. I believe it would be much easier to add some checks to the guild menu, or a new small feature to players.

In guild menus it would be declaring war. Choose a guild from the list of names on your server, and hit declare war. They Have to accept or decline. No penalties from declining (unless a whole system for war bonuses arises, then people who cower from a challenge could suffer), you just don't want to PvP.
When war is upon two guild they will se opposing players with a different colored name, or some icon indicating enemy.

As a personal flag, you set yourself to open PvP mode, or duel request mode. Again other players see your name or an icon representing the PvP mode your in.

Pros: It give PvP to all who want to participate at any time, in any place.
Cons: A miner guildmate or townie could get ganked by a warring player. In this case you could retire from the guild to clear the war flag, or fight as you should, because your at war.

That's it people. All the bunny-petting Pvm'ers will be able to get that, no one would be ganked without knowing they can be, and with an option out.

There is no downside to this kind of PvP. It would draw in thousands and add soo much to the game; you wouldn't even begin to understand unless you experienced it yourself.

[LaughingOtter]

jeez Laughing Otter...lighten up...its a game and in RL you can be robbed..you gonna go kill the person?

In Colorado, if someone enters my house and gives me a reason to fear for my life or my family, yes, I can kill them with total impunity. However, that is getting off the subject.

You act like it would DESTROY the entire game.

PvP in the manner Rhiannon described would not be too bad. PvP by consent in specified locations seems reasonable. Theft, though, is different. By definition, theft occurs without the target's consent. That lack of consent is the issue.

I have no doubt that there are many folks that would enjoy this option. I also have no doubt that many would not, especially if they were the targets. Regardless of what possible outcomes exist for a theft attempt, there must be some consequence for both success and failure. As far as I'm concerned, if you attempt to steal from me - attempt, not succeed - I should have the ability to immediatly attack you if I choose. You attempted a hostile act against me, and it is my right to respond.

This is only possible with at-will PvP. Systems for tracking noteriety or setting an "open season" flag onrepeatoffendersimpose a few limits, butit is still at-will PvP.

I know that there could be an opt-in option for those that wanttheft. However, I doubt those who wantto be able to steal from other players would be happy with that arrangement.

This community is as open and helpful as it isprimarily becausethis is not an environment wherewe have to assume that everyone we meet is a potential attacker. Arena PvP won't change that. Theft will. Theft would destroy our ability to trust one another. Theft would destroy our economy; why buy something whwn you can steal it? Why try to earn a living crafting when everything you make is at risk of being taken from you?

I act like theft "would DESTROY the game" because that is exactly what I see it doing.

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

and LO I retort by saying having only npc's you can pickpocket from would not ruin the game, it can be balanced by die rolls or some balancing system. Sorry but rogues have been in fantasy games for YEARS and those games weren't 'destroyed'
How on earth would it affect you/your char to have an npc pickpocketed? Because you feel you work to earn your money and some rogue can just steal right? Well with proper implementations it can be set up so a thief isn't just getting filthy rich pickpocketing.
X% chance of being caught by guards, fined, imprisoned etc. I'm no way saying thieves should be allowed to run rampant all over the world and steal people blind, in fact as someone who plays rogues I'd be bored doing that...no challenge, no fun. the risk of being caught and killed or imprisoned is half the fun.

[LaughingOtter]

How on earth would it affect you/your char to have an npc pickpocketed?

Depends on which NPCs you're talking about, first. Consigners? Pawn brokers? The Vielo? When you say, "NPCs", that's a pretty broad brush. I assume you mean consigners & the Vielo. If you steal from a consigner, you are stealing items another player has for sale. That's not stealing from an NPC. As I said, if I consigned a shoulder parrot at two gold and you swipe it, I'm going to be looking to kill you, rez you, and kill you again and again and again until eitherone of us quits the gameor I get my parrot back.

Personally, I don't think that qualifies as fun. YMMV.

Stealing from the Vielo? However much it might be warrented or desired, this is a bad idea. Any reasonable degree of success is a multi-gold per hour bonanza - one dragons would be totally excluded from, by the way.

Vaultkeepers? What valuables do they have? Stuff that, again, belongs to other players.

Pawnbrokers? OK, that you could do - and then sell the stuff right back to them. Yet more rampant cash farming.

Trainers and QMs? Well, OK. A ton of forms sold to the PBwon't break the game.

Quest NPCs? Sure, swipe some of Dennison's maggot hides. He probably won't notice.

As to consequences...

Imprisoned? What's to stop you from logging out or recalling?
Caught by the guards & killed? Right, death is such a big problem in Istaria. Just go to another city where they aren't mad at you. Unless you were exiled from all citiesand all the guards in the game tried to kill you on sight, that means very little.

As I said, using rogue abilities against the WA is probably very workable. An infiltrator, a sniper, an assassin in the service of good - those roles are totally appropriate for the game and I thnk they would be good additions.

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Silvanathan Shadowbane wrote:How on earth would it affect you/your char to have an npc pickpocketed?

Depends on which NPCs you're talking about, first. Consigners? Pawn brokers? The Vielo? When you say, "NPCs", that's a pretty broad brush. I assume you mean consigners & the Vielo. If you steal from a consigner, you are stealing items another player has for sale. That's not stealing from an NPC. As I said, if I consigned a shoulder parrot at two gold and you swipe it, I'm going to be looking to kill you, rez you, and kill you again and again and again until eitherone of us quits the gameor I get my parrot back.

Personally, I don't think that qualifies as fun. YMMV.

Stealing from the Vielo? However much it might be warrented or desired, this is a bad idea. Any reasonable degree of success is a multi-gold per hour bonanza - one dragons would be totally excluded from, by the way.

Vaultkeepers? What valuables do they have? Stuff that, again, belongs to other players.

Pawnbrokers? OK, that you could do - and then sell the stuff right back to them. Yet more rampant cash farming.

Trainers and QMs? Well, OK. A ton of forms sold to the PBwon't break the game.

Quest NPCs? Sure, swipe some of Dennison's maggot hides. He probably won't notice.

As to consequences...

Imprisoned? What's to stop you from logging out or recalling?
Caught by the guards & killed? Right, death is such a big problem in Istaria. Just go to another city where they aren't mad at you. Unless you were exiled from all citiesand all the guards in the game tried to kill you on sight, that means very little.

As I said, using rogue abilities against the WA is probably very workable. An infiltrator, a sniper, an assassin in the service of good - those roles are totally appropriate for the game and I thnk they would be good additions.

Well they could add NPC's, random people walking around, and have the recall button disabled in thief mode, there are SEVERAL ways to make it work. And definetly no pickpocketing consigners/pawnbrokers. Instantly being caught if you do or getting a fail message everytime the attempt is made etc. It could have have wanted signs if you somehow managed to escape the guards. Bounties on your head etc. Its not as impossible or game destroying as you act like it is.

Well enough of this because its like talking to a wall and its not like its going to be added.
Its pretty sad you'd quit (hence blackmailing any devs reading this into thinking you'd quit the game over it and they'd lose a customer)

[Seikojin]

:o What I find odd is how it is believed by parties of players who have been the victim of or heard of victims from some Pvp or grief looting scenario. If you have an issue about how something was done in a game and then come here, see our requests for PvP and thieving; then that enraged experience fuels a fire that does not need to start.

I say why not take a step back and look at the process involved. Taking something from someones inventory.

To do that you have you either use some skill while they are targeted or double click them to perform said action. Doing so can raise any number of flags to the game. In turn this could signal events to occur, like guards rushing to you, or a bolt of death to strike from above, or turning the victim to face the aggressor.

If the aggressors skill in stealing is high enough the flag will be delayed, or smaller...

Or better yet it could raise a special flag. One that takes time to play out. Like a pool of infamy. Every time you steal, the more known it becomes, until you cannot go anywhere without being noticed and apprehended.

In a non-pvp world you would turn to the would-be theif and he would be rooted by your grip, your items returned, and authorities would come and take him.

Jail can be anything. They could cut exp, take levels, items, skill, block recalling, whatever they desire...

There could be items that yeild penalties to theivs...

And on top of it all, they could be good guys where they open something not really seen in the game... chests. Locked hidden rooms. backstab bad guys for a heafty amount of damage... cloak others in secrecy...

So I dont see the problem.

I went through this a page back... It should make simple sense how it could be added.

[LaughingOtter]

Well enough of this because its like talking to a wall and its not like its going to be added.
Its pretty sad you'd quit (hence blackmailing any devs reading this into thinking you'd quit the game over it and they'd lose a customer)

"Buddha once sat before a wall, and when he arose, he was enlightened."
"Do you compare yourself to Buddha?"
"No. Only to the wall."
- Cord & the Blind Man, 'Circle of Iron'


Consider what you described.

I agree that there are ways both PvP and stealing COULD be added. As a functional reality, though, for either request to be realized, the implementation has to fit in to what IS. It is a fundamental truth of the game world that all the Gifted have put aside their differences to unite for the common good. Theft may be fun for some players, but it makes no sense in the context of the game story.

Again, I'd support a rogue-type class as an infiltration specialist; use of those skills against other players is what I object to.

So, being a good wall, I echo this back to you: given the game world as it is and using only internal reasons, justify theft as you see it. "It's fun for the player" is not a valid reason. "It sells subscriptions" is not a valid reason. The usefullness of theft and infiltration against the WA is a given.

I'm not mocking you in this. I'm asking you to do your best to convince me.

[Andrew Zozulya]

Seikojin, duno why you want PvP in almost freely mode? Problem in each case it if anyone can engage you in PvP without yours decision (and not just by popping a messagebox with "accept" - because it will be hugely exploited by immature people...do you carefully read boxes that popped up due massively laggy fights?). Only arenas are somwhat acceptable but this will lead to widely "rebalancing" and this will mean huge nerf for many many classes. Sure no one will be o hitted from Zerk + boar rage. They will scream and cry and nerf comes. So better no PvP at all. This game miss so much content that should be implemented before pvp that this idea about pvp looks premature in whole. I prefear better comunity to evironment like near Yew gate in felucca ( sure you know what about i speak ).

[Seikojin]

:o the thing is things like this can be a bindable key. So you hit a key to toggle pvp. In Uo you by default get a warning message when you go to attack an innocent. There is an option to stop that from happening because it gets annoying when your out in a faction war or guild war or Pk'ing.

The same can be said here. It could be an annoying pop-up that can be disabled.

On top of that I am not asking for near-free pvp. Im saying consentual pvp is better than no pvp. guild checkboxes for war declaration, or toggles to go to an open pvp mode personally, whatever. I know from years of playing that people who are into whining about being pk'd dont use these features because they dont like pvp.

I also know from years of playing on the pvp side how exiting it is to test your skills, mettle and character against someone besides a computer opponent. The thrill of a hard won pvp battle in mmo games is unmatched. Why do you think games like UO, Daoc, Shadowbane, and planetside keep their numbers up? Because the thrill of danger, real people wanting to put an end to your character for a multitude of reasons from the innane to the outrageous.

And Otter, what about my ideas for theiving? How do you still see that it is impossible to add theiving, or why is it bad?

Whining? People whine all the time about useless stuff. Adding theiving wont change that. And it wont bring a huge surge of calls to the support center either.

Andrew... I do know what you mean overall and I understand it... And I agree at least that the game needs its content foremost... But these ramblings for ideas are just food for thought, and we hope someone of higher authority jumps in and chimes their opinion...

[Andrew Zozulya]

Sure i can discuss pvp like PK, GvG etc. but most hateable for is Player vs PKs on spawns. Are you really think that there will be not such situation like Killstealing in order to engage you in pvp and then gank you with whole party of PK's friends? Or like steadly war taunts from another peeple or guilds? It becomes so wired that no one will be able even little enjoy from Hz ( im not speaking about kiddy PKs ). Even simple dueling with confirmation can become annoing in quite few ways... I think this game simple not for pvp...Sure Fightings pits could be implemented but there should be not any little profit from it beside happy deathmatching there. If not it will be exploited without any limits. From UO times - every single possible bug was used from PKs on champ spawns in UO. Endless luring/PKingdue fight of mobs, ganking, even killing in Townhad happens every single day i was in UO.

I bet if there where Freddy vs Aliens vs Chopper vs Predator vs Whatever online this will be a nice bloodymassaker game. But i think its not for Hz or any of upcomings on MMORPG scene.