The death of a REAL Istaria.

[Shian]

I don't think there's such a thing as 'the perfect game' where you can feel totally immersed even if you design it yourself. Chances are, there's going to be something that simply can't be fixed or put in due to code restraints.

Or later on you find that something you wanted for immersion, like the example requirement to eat and drink every 30 minutes, turns out to be something that's more of a hinderance than helpful. (How long is a typical blight hunting session?)

It's extremely difficult to try and stay immersed in a game when there are so many bumps and hiccups that is often very difficult to explain away.

Multiple game mechanics that just don't feel right, players that don't follow lore or RP something you as a player don't want to follow. The 1337 crowd that is only interested in number crunching and playing a game, which thankfully is not rampant in Istaria. It's difficult, but every so often you get those little sparks of "I'm there" and for a few moments, the game is what you want it to be.

[AmonGwareth]

Callak, what I meant by "it can't come again" was mostly that we can't restore the world to pre-merge status, either in an existing shard like Chaos and Order, or on a new shard. Same with the old events, they cannot be redone without being truly redone. That is, there is no way to just say "dryad event, go!" or something like that.

All we can do is move forward and work to try and bring about a new Istaria that feels alive and dangerous. As far as mixing the tiers, there is a little that is done. You can find some t2 resources on Lesser Aradoth (not much, but a little) and there are mobs that are above 20 there. The same will happen when we do the T2 revamp.

[CallakDW]

No no game is perfect, but I have yet to see one that has as poorly considered rules as some that HZ has.

I haven't brought up other games simply because I don't want to hear the usual cop out response: "well go play those games then if they are so much better" There are several reasons why I don't. I don't want to pay for two accounts, and I don't want to loose my lair that I have put a lot of painfull work into, since I know I will want to come back eventually, I allways do. Second is Horizons is the only game I can play a dragon in. That means a lot to me. So now withat said, here are some more reasons I feel HZ can do better, though I understand the primary reason developement is so slow, is HZ has so few developers:

The rules established for WoW and the rules in Oblivion and in Fable, just for a few examples sertainly make a lot more sense than many of the ones that Horizons has set up.

I understand that two of these are single player games and that WoW has an army developing on it. But my point is that reasoning behind the way things work has to be considered well beyond "its magic" for it to become more than an artificial solution to a problem.

[CallakDW]

Callak, what I meant by "it can't come again" was mostly that we can't restore the world to pre-merge status, either in an existing shard like Chaos and Order, or on a new shard. Same with the old events, they cannot be redone without being truly redone. That is, there is no way to just say "dryad event, go!" or something like that.

All we can do is move forward and work to try and bring about a new Istaria that feels alive and dangerous. As far as mixing the tiers, there is a little that is done. You can find some t2 resources on Lesser Aradoth (not much, but a little) and there are mobs that are above 20 there. The same will happen when we do the T2 revamp.

Understood, however we know there were good things that were removed from horizons in the past that were cool. Some of these things can come back with time and mabe more so with increased staff I would think.

[Shian]

If the large dragons are what bothers you, why don't you remove the Ancient mod? From what I understand, Ancient is not that much bigger than adult and could possibly aleviate some of your "my/other dragons' heads are going through the roof" issue.

[CallakDW]

You got me all wrong, it's not the large dragons that bother me, though dragon size is part of the issue. Its the fact that Kutit is a really cool idea that once had a reason for being, and the reason it existed made a lot of sense. But then it's reason for existance was removed and now it doesn't make sense. Yes dragons have ways of working around their biological differences and kutit form should have been one of their solutions, but it's not really anymore. I like the fact that dragons should have a few difficulties doing things they don't normally do because of their biology, it makes me feel more like I'm playing a dragon. Remeber dragons are supposed to be aloof of bipeds, using their inefficiant equipment should be benieth them in the first place and in sertain situations they might be stooped to the level of altering themself to use it because there is no other choice or it happens to be extreemly inconvenient to not use it.

[Shian]

Right, except there are a number of issues with it- go get a coffee while your dragon is changing, players having to relog in order for it to work properly, etc.

Maybe the issues with khutit will be fixed someday, but it seems counter productive to gun for requiring implimenting something that's halfway broken.

As others have pointed out, there are other matters that need attending first (like I dunno... being homeless for four weeks) and very little manpower to do it with.

What we have right now works. It may not be immersive or even make sense like being able to craft through walls, but having something that works is far better than having something that dosen't work some times, but correct.

This may sound silly, but I appreciate the fact that with the number of bugs this game has, there is a workaround, a mod or other solution that fixes or lessens it. Maybe it's because I came from a game so riddled with bugs and 'incoviniences' that it was real work to play it. It was an immersive game RP-wise and mechanically, but there was only so many errors before the game became not fun at all, no matter how well it catered to an RP crowd.

[CallakDW]

It works, yes. Though I'm a bit frusterated with a lot of things "just working". I feel that nothing immediate will happen due to this discussion, but by stating my feelings, I'm making it very obvious in which direction I would like to see things go in. Obviously the problems with Kutit will have to be resolved before it becomes a key step in importaint processes like crafting, but I feel it should eventually become a key step just for one example of somthing that can create some depth in the game, because there is a good reason it should have to be done, not just because I want to make the game annoying to people.

[Dhalin]

I don't know why people whine about the Tier system so much...

I don't know about anyone else here, but I hate being put up against things I have no chance of winning against, and one of my pet peeves are those Lv15+ super mobs right outside Kion. Now thankfully there are only 3 - two skeletons and 1spider huntress, but that's enough.

Nothing like having to come to a grinding halt because nobody can be bothered to kill the stupid thing so you can keep going with what you were doing. And trust me, the average Lv10ish player will last all of what, 10 seconds against that spider? It is "Flee or Die" ... but then, if you're fleeing away from it, you aren't doing what you went there to do (to, say, craft at the smelter).

I rather like the tier system, and the reason why so many newer MMORPGs have areas of similar level (maybe not a straight-cut 'Tier' system, but still) is because it is tried, true, and proven to work. Why does it work? It is very simple. Nothing sucks more than being expected to wade through areas with mobs that can kill you with the blink of an eye. That is my main beef against the RoP quest: The mobs near the quest objectives are _way_ too strong.

That isn't "Prove yourself and become better, and earn the right", it is "Prove you have enough biped friends to heal and resurrect you" or "Prove you could try often enough until you finally succeeded" or "Prove you had the patience to eat away the massive DPs you accrued". Proving Yourself, and Earning your Rite of Passage is doing a challenging solo fight against a boss (instanced battlefield that only you can enter, maybe?). THAT is Earning your Rites. Not having some bipeds healing/ressing/killing your way through an area with Lv110+ mobs.

[Velea]

No no game is perfect, but I have yet to see one that has as poorly considered rules as some that HZ has.

If that's truly the case, then you haven't played many MMORPG's.

And please, you can't compare a single player game (static) to an ever changing, dynamic MMORPG. It's like comparing a 2 hour movie to a 500 page book. Both are an entertainment experience of a world, a story of what happens in that world. But I dare say that anyone who has ever both read a book and seen the movie will come out saying that the book was very different from the movie (and usually better).

I think the reason that others bring up the size of your dragon as where the "sticking point" seems to be for you is because, at least from my perspective, I don't see you saying anything else that is specific game rules and systems. Yes, I saw the comment about the spawn system, but as has been said this is something we're working to improve as we revamp the tiers. So I'm a bit at a loss as to what the real problem here is.

How can what Virtrium is doing now, five YEARS after the merge of the servers, be the "death of the real Istaria"? Why even hold onto that world, whatever it may be? Frankly, though I played it for a time, I don't remember it in the least. The Istaria we have now, with dragons who can fly, build their own machines so they don't HAVE to use biped ones, multiple new races, and the wealth of other changes that have been added in the years, is the only world I remember. It is always rather ironic to me that when asked about what was so great about "pre-merge Istaria", no one can be specific. No one can tell me just exactly what made it so much better than the world we have now. (Keep in mind you have to take away everything that was added in that time when you make that comparison.)

I'm not saying that there isn't a great deal of work that's needed still to improve Istaria. But I look at the progress made over the years, and the last year especially, and can't fathom how the game at release was so much better, so much more "real" than what we have now.

[Velea]

It works, yes. Though I'm a bit frusterated with a lot of things "just working". I feel that nothing immediate will happen due to this discussion, but by stating my feelings, I'm making it very obvious in which direction I would like to see things go in. Obviously the problems with Kutit will have to be resolved before it becomes a key step in importaint processes like crafting, but I feel it should eventually become a key step just for one example of somthing that can create some depth in the game, because there is a good reason it should have to be done, not just because I want to make the game annoying to people.

In my opinion as a roleplayer, it would be way more "realistic" to say that dragons can not use machines designed for bipeds when crafting than it would to say that somehow going into Khutit form allows dragons to craft. If we're assuming that the machines in lairs are "designed" to allow a dragon to craft in dragon form, but the ones in biped machines do not unless they change form, the logical conclusion, in my mind, is that it's two different styles of crafting. Like sewing on a regular, in home sewing machine versus an industrial one. While I've done both, and in theory know how on the industrial, there's no way I can turn out the same quality of item as I can on my small machine.

So what I'm wondering is why even use a machine designed for someone with hands, fingers, an opposable thumb, etc, when you were born with claws and learned to craft on "claw appropriate" machines? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Khutit form still leave you with clawed "hands" (rather than finger/thumb)? So the only thing that it really does is allows you to get close enough to the machine, not use it as a biped would... if you really want to get technical, that is.

[Shian]

That isn't "Prove yourself and become better, and earn the right", it is "Prove you have enough biped friends to heal and resurrect you" or "Prove you could try often enough until you finally succeeded" or "Prove you had the patience to eat away the massive DPs you accrued". Proving Yourself, and Earning your Rite of Passage is doing a challenging solo fight against a boss (instanced battlefield that only you can enter, maybe?). THAT is Earning your Rites. Not having some bipeds healing/ressing/killing your way through an area with Lv110+ mobs.

Yeah.. Lem is one of those impossibles.

I wanted to do that quest myself as Lem was quite the pushover, but having to have an Ancient fetch him out of his spiral, I felt cheated that I couldn't go down and get him for my own ROP.

We're getting there though. No more swamp runs. I'm also a fan of the tier system as I've glimpsed many a time in the dragon channel, hatchies trying to get the 50 spiders west of Aug, difficult in itself but then having to contend with creatures 20 levels above them if the anchor is at Frostwatch.... Run or die is far from fun.

The occasional roaming named or boss mob that can surprize you out of nowhere-that's fun. One that paths -like the leutenants right were you are known to be every time is not fun. I wish they would walk a path that maybe goes across the road then off to the side instead of straight up on the road so that at any given time, you might run into them, you might not.

[babyfly]

i find the point of not needing allways to fight for any resource good and more realist to a real and fantasy world. And jsut to say it is the reason way i play this game. what me nervs is only the vanishing of the shops near resources. In non kind of world a worker was walking 1 and more days to come with his material to his mashine.

By the way shapshifting blocks some players to play this race.

If a Dryard can fly and still drawn in the water without landing, a dragon can walk in to a smal room. it is magic to get a camel throught a needle, isnt it ?

[lightning claw]

"it can't come again" was mostly that we can't restore the world to pre-merge status, either in an existing shard like Chaos and Order, or on a new shard. Same with the old events, they cannot be redone without being truly redone. That is, there is no way to just say "dryad event, go!" or something like that.

So the return of the blight attacking the citys can not be done ?

All we can do is move forward and work to try and bring about a new Istaria that feels alive and dangerous.

Sadly Amon, with the new death point system that was installed, has almost stopped the flow of liquid metal to form the fine Dwarvern weapons and armor, as well as dragon claws and scales. Many warriors have hung up there weapons and exchanged them for crafting tools.

The players that dwell in Istaria have become far to complacent in this time of peace and are likely to fall victim to the blight if they should attack again

If defend them self at all
I see biped and dragon alike crafting, and possibly defending the resource node they are gathering, but I do not see them completely obliterating the area and honing there combat skills .

Yes long ago I was a Hatchie during the time of the raids and I grew up in true fear when porting was I porting in to extreme danger? Or was I safe for the moment.

I do long for that time once more now More than ever

The blight can not stay content in there little area they got to wander gather there forces golems wolves pigmys and what have you, and rain down on the city's so Istaria finest might pick up there weapons and remember the thrill of the hunt.

[Justa Mirage]

Heh! I love the skeletons and spider huntress. It gives the new adventurer a sense of excitement, caution, and alertness. It's the big chicken! RUN!

Devs: How hard would it be... to put some sand beetles outside the walls of Tazoon? or some "Baby Fire beetles" outside of Dralk?

Perhaps some angry gruoks outside of Augendell where they were before, wandering the foothills of the Augendell mines?

You "can" bring back pre-merge sort of, if you wanted to, just park a few low level mobs outside the racial cities based on environment for new players to experience, giving them an alternative to being sent to LA for their next tier of mobs.

[Silverblaze]

I miss some things in "old istaria" also. I like much of the new stuff also.

It really is give and take. I think we need as many players as we can get. However, if someone is truly unhappy, I would rather they "take their ball and go home." Constant complaint or ranting, serves to demoralize the player base and that I dislike.

I see both side to this, I truly do. I wish you as much fun as you can still find Callak. I also hope to see Istaria broguht back to its glory days to some extent.

[Velea]

I also hope to see Istaria broguht back to its glory days to some extent.

But again I have to ask, why aren't NOW the "Glory Days"?

I hope it does not feel like a personal attack, Silverblaze, because it isn't. I hear people say that, or something like it, all the time, and personally don't understand. Now it could be I'm biased because I'm part of the development team, but I try to step back and look as a player too, and I see right now as the "Glory Days of Istaria".

The game has a team who is dedicated to developing the game. We listen (though obviously don't always agree with) players when they speak out. We communicate actively as a team, both with players and internally. We use the best abilities of everyone on the team (meaning we aren't asking artists to code, for example).

Seriously... what am I missing here? What was so great about the Istaria and the development team of 5 years ago that I'm not remembering that makes IT the "Glory Days" and not now? And I promise, I won't be personally offended by anyone's answer. This is honestly and truly a sincere question that I've finally gotten brave enough to ask.

(And sorry to derail the thread a bit, but hopefully it still seems somewhat relevant to listening to the original reason for the rant.)

[Hoberton]

Hoberton, I find it pointless to discuss this with you because you obviously see at as nothing other than a game. Yes it is a game. But when I play it it should not feel like one. You were the one that stated in my deer thread that the deer is nothing more than a node to you after all.

I see this as nothing but a game which I enjoy playing around in. Main reason: It is a game, NOT real. Deer are nodes that players get Animal Hide and such. Just because they look nice and walk around does not diminish the fact that they were put in for the resources we obtain from them.

The Developers have done quite a bit on the improvement on this game. Some of the Old events would be nice to see happen again but I do not see them bringing any of them back. I missed out on a few of them do to many reasons but I am not sorry that they are not around anymore. The Devs have a lot they are working on. Biggest at the moment is getting reclaimation and Plot resizing going so players will be able to get plots, long unused, freed up for purchase/auction.

This next is probaly going to get me in trouble but will say it anyways. Taking time away from the Devs time so a Dragons neck flap fits properly or the Scales that do not have the exact color or eyes and teeth not being the proper color or furniture in houses or Capes being seen or Dragon riding or....(list is endless), is not really important. Give the Devs time to do important fixes. Only then work on the Eye candy if it really is that important. Get the problem bugs taken care of first.

Roleplaying is important to many and I would not hinder its use by anyone. Just playing this game is enjoyable because it is a Fantasy world and that is roleplaying enough for me. But, to think this a REAL world and escaping into it is a little bit extreme. No one is a REAL Human/Saris/Dwarf - Warrior/Druid/Cleric or Dragon. We are all playable characters in a game. Nothing more.

[GalemThawn]

Yeah.. Lem is one of those impossibles.

Not to derail, but as a quick aside:

Lem is completely possible.
Just today I took out Lem without any help. Once I got into the area, I just ran down the western ledge and altered between F10 for nearest opponent and a hotkey for /select Lem. When the closest mob was selected, I avoided closing into it. Once Lem was found, I closed the distance and used the hotkeyed phylactery. He was dead in 2 hits. The only thing even close to him at death was a level 40 mage. I jumped into the hallway, killed him quickly, and was able to loot both without interference.

[Kumu Honua]

I remember posting about "Plastic" istaria back when they segregated mob spawns. Worst idea ever had.