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Thread: Epic Madness Medley

  1. #1
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    Default Epic Madness Medley

    Disclaimer: guilds/players/groups henceforth included in this rant will be nameless, but you KNOW who you are. Exclusions are the very kind and thoughtful people who maintain the EpicBattles chat channel on Chaos shard, who try to avert what I am about to launch into. This is something that has been bugging the hell out of me for ages; threefold, the fact that successfully arranging a group has become barely viable unless you are in the right social circles (a different argument entirely, but one that applies here nonetheless), the growing problem of guilds becoming introverted, and the continuing problem of camping epic mobs.

    Point in fact is that there are only a few guilds with the strength to take epic mobs, although there are a good few players capable and willing of such hunts rattling around other less fortunate guilds. If you are not a member of these uber-guilds you are lucky to even hear if a hunt is on, and even if there is your chances of getting an invite are slim to nil when asking as people will cite 'guild hunt'. Not many people are willing to change guild just to hunt epics, and trying to put together a group from the chat channels is fishing an empty sea. If you are not one of the more 'well known' players you will be lucky to even get a response on MP half the time, and the other 99% of the time it will be something along the lines of “not right now, sorry�.

    This is a major embuggerance. People lucky enough to belong to such a guild ask for groups in guild rather than publicise a hunt. This is because publicising a hunt gives you less chance of looting the very rare and devastating weapons and items that some mobs drop, and some circles at least go out of their way to keep an active hunt a secret to avoid competition. People who can solo mobs solo them. People who can guild mobs, guild them. Only a very few people are considerate enough to ever publicise epic hunts and offer to invite others who otherwise never get a chance to tackle these rare and challenging creatures because they are wrapped up in their own selfish desire to make better their chances of scoring a hit on the random for dropped items. It is a monopoly that they are not willing to break because they have it all their own way, and it is exactly that; their OWN way.

    But then someone cries "but put together a group of your own!"... Easier said than done. It’s not even a question of concerted effort because no matter how much pleading and hand wringing (and a third phrase also comes to mind) you still can’t get a top-notch group unless you already have the contacts or are invited to one. Anyone with a mind to have a spot of harmless fun hunting epics with a few friends (socialising, role-play, any of a dozen different reasons) had better just turn around and recall because epics are not so much about cooperation as they are an inter group arms-race to see who can get it and kill it first, which for the leisure seekers is hardly ever. You can’t have just a bit of harmless fun when the militants arrive with bayonets fixed, kick down the door and steal the show. I have seen people patiently wait out spawns for days at a time only to have someone else with a bigger/better group of hardcore epic hunters arrive at the spawn, steal it, ninja kill it in 30 seconds before you can even get buffs up and then skip away with the loot. Whilst I acknowledge that epics are mostly hunted for their items, this by no means takes precedence, and by NO MEANS gives anyone the god-given right to kill epics forever until they get what they are looking for- denying anyone else with a less able group a chance in the process. The only way to prevent this is to claim precedence of your own by camping the mob, which I will now deal with.

    On the point of mob camping, it is still happening; less so now that the spawn time has been jacked up, but it’s still prevalent. Some people find it acceptable, others do not. The point is that it shouldn’t be a NECESSARY asset of game-play because some selfish people will cyclically kill every epic as soon as they spawn, and if you don’t get there before them you have no chance at all, and when you do more often than not someone will start a flame war, both groups report each other for kill stealing, and the world ends in a short sharp shower of Sh*t.

    Camping is an issue twofold; first off is that a lot of players regard camping as cheating because camping a spawn(s) essentially prevents anyone else get a look in, so by the methods you employ to avoid the dreaded ninjas you are pierced from your own hypocritical quiver. Rather than an element of friendly competition as some claim, the entire idea of camping is to stop anyone else getting the spawn. If you are a fair minded person playing by these dirty tricks isn’t an option, and to be frank, having to stoop to that level just to be able to hunt an epic (which is everyone’s right, not just said ninjas) is not palatable. There is a "nyah nyah I was here first!" attitude that hardly encourages cooperation and brotherly love. Second is that not everyone has time available to sit out a spawn all night or day trying to get the drop on these epic-ninja groups/guilds. People have jobs, people have to sleep, people have to PEE for crying out loud, and if you blink some other selfish git jumps in and nicks it! Where’s that caffeine!? I need to stay up all night trying to get the mob before THEY do!

    Solution? Take turns. Yet again not as easy as said. No matter how often you suggest this these groups will say 'get the spawn before us'... and then immediately camp every spawn site, thus preventing anyone getting the spawn first unless you have reactions like a Jedi and can type faster than J.K Rowling on amphetamines. As said before, this is not such an issue today, but is still happening and is still immensely frustrating.

    Conclusion: The little guy doesn’t get a look in; epics are the ball parks of the big players with big guilds stuffed with high level players and who can put together a group at the snap of their fingers. If you are an epic-capable player outside of said guilds/social circles your time is better spent smashing your head off a wall unless the relevant chat channel has been prodded into activity and you have the fortune to be on at the right time. That basically means there are now only a very small percentage of players who actually meet the requirements to hunt epics, and more importantly who can successfully get together a group that is outfitted to deal with them before someone else jumps in. If you are lucky and know the right people you might get an invite, but generally asking anywhere is a wasted effort. The vast majority of people wanting to hunt epics will not get the chance any time soon.
    Melanath- level 100 ADV/ 60 DCRA -
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    For Lunus, for Dralk! Death before Dishonour!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    To be blunt.

    This is how it is in every single MMO in existance. The only other option is instances, and those games lose the second M.

    Again, this must be a Chaos thing cause unless things have drastically changed on Order, anyone and everyone could get "Epic" stuff.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumu Honua View Post

    Again, this must be a Chaos thing cause unless things have drastically changed on Order, anyone and everyone could get "Epic" stuff.
    Definatly. It might be because we don't really have 'uber guilds' that have to have everything for them and thier alts, but I'll see groups forming all the time in market channel, often having to ask a couple times if anyone else wants to go.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    Definatly. It might be because we don't really have 'uber guilds' that have to have everything for them and thier alts, but I'll see groups forming all the time in market channel, often having to ask a couple times if anyone else wants to go.
    I agree. When a group gets started, there will be asked in various channels if anyone wants to join. Sometimes we don't even get enough together for a group. Seems to be a Chaos only thing.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    huh?

    How can anything on a 20 minute respawn timer be camped to the point that no one else can kill the mob at least once during a 24 hour period?

    Do you want the respawn timer moved to 5 minutes?

    Do you want the devs to form a group for you to be able to kill an epic mob?

    What you are seeing is 1 of 2 things:

    1. An attempt by those who have already gotten all the items they personally want off the epics to sell at inflated prices, when they know that the price is actually worth a few hundred silver if even that much. By not participating in hunts with "outsiders" and knowing that few others even care to bother killing the epics, they know that they can try and gull players into thinking that these items are rare and unload them for 1-10 gold each.

    2. Ennui of doing the epics and players preferring to pursue their own goals in game, i.e., crafting, hunting comps, leveling and have no interest in killing the bosses.

    This "majority" of players is a minority. There is very little continued interest in killing the epics, in fact, most are up sometimes for days at a time.

    The fact that you can't get enough players interested in killing an epic should be proof of this.

    The problem doesn't lie in camping or anything other than a population that wants to do what THEY want to spend their time in game doing, after all, that's what they pay their subscription fees for, to play the game doing what THEY want, not necessarily to spend their time in game pleasing someone else.

    It's the same reason 20 players don't jump right up and volunteer to make a set of gear for another player. Because THEY are busy doing what THEY want to do in game and don't want to put it aside to do something else.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    I'm on Chaos, and most of the epic groups that I've seen contain players from multiple guilds.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    Creme-

    First of all i never suggested a majority of the playerbase was interested in hunting epics, because the majority of the playerbase arent at levels high enough to hunt epic mobs. What i said was that the majority of people who CAN hunt epics never publicise hunts because it would spoil their chances of getting epic items. It is at these people my rant is directed; i cant abide cloak-and-dagger stratergies as this kills all sense of community, and feeds the increacingly secular nature of the game.

    This results in anyone not in said guild/group/social circle/whatever being effectively unable to hunt epics. The chat channel mentioned in the disclaimer goes a long way towards bringing together the isolated groups of people who want to hunt epics but who arent lucky enough to be able to put together a group for whatever reason, for which i am eternally grateful.

    Granted, the issue of camping is a dead topic, which i did state was less of a problem these days in the rant. That was directed at a very specific group of people.

    The problem i addressed in this rant is a growing lack of cohesion as groups become more introverted. I thought it was worth a mention. If i failed to make this clear im sorry.
    Melanath- level 100 ADV/ 60 DCRA -
    Shas Mackard- Saris Berserker/Outfitter et al

    For Lunus, for Dralk! Death before Dishonour!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    I guess I don't get it. This has nothing to do with camping and simply that you aren't being included in guild X's activities?

    I'm afraid that you will find that just about every game whether it is an MMO or FPS or even an RTS will have guilds/clans/teams that will do X, Y, or Z. Most of the time they don't go around making public announcements of their plans.

    Some guilds/clans/teams are introverted and do not wish to play with "outsiders". Other guilds/clans/teams are quite willing to invite friends. It's the way of the worlds. Adapt.

    If your personal goal is to kill epics and you cannot do this on your own, then you will have to join those who do. If they do not want to include you then you will have to set out on your own to gather a group. It's as simple as that.

    Edit: Again, my experience is from Order. On Valkor I would join whoever was waiting to kill him. If no-one was killing him I would either announce a hunt and gather people from the public channels or simply call a friend and we would kill him ourselves. Same with Gigaroth. There was a group that liked to hunt him. I joined them, and when they weren't killing him I would again start my own group. Sometimes, the epic guys would be dead already and I wasn't there. The world didn't end...
    Last edited by Kumu Honua; August 17th, 2008 at 01:07 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    I spent all my time on order since the merge and can say maybe 5 times in my life there did i ever see a mob or epic get stolen, twice explained with a sry didnt see you guys. So its not an issue as i ever really saw.

    But i do have one question, it seems your problem lies with either one or two groups, but i read it to be one, are they so well set up that theyve got all the epics set up on different timers to spawn differently so they can be camping them all at once. I find it hard to believe theres any guild with the strength left, with dwindling player base to camp them all, couldnt you just pick another epic if someones camping one of them.

    But oh well over the years everything about playing hz has gotten easier, might as well just stick the epics on every corner too, give everyone a shot at them. As it sits killing the epics is hz end game, it should only be done by the best of the best, i always prefered hunting them with friends, more fun winning, and always certainly more fun losing with peeps you know. I was of level to kill them over a year before i was able to built a group of friends that had a chance, thats what the end game should be about, time invested, skill, and to those complaining hey ill warn you, once youve got them once the thrill sure goes away, its a life of grinding after them.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    Quote Originally Posted by Melanth
    Creme-

    What i said was that the majority of people who CAN hunt epics never publicise hunts because it would spoil their chances of getting epic items. It is at these people my rant is directed; i cant abide cloak-and-dagger stratergies as this kills all sense of community, and feeds the increacingly secular nature of the game.

    This results in anyone not in said guild/group/social circle/whatever being effectively unable to hunt epics.

    The problem i addressed in this rant is a growing lack of cohesion as groups become more introverted. I thought it was worth a mention. If i failed to make this clear im sorry.
    First I want to relate a story of a player I spoke with at Reklar (after the timers went to 20 minutes). This player had been waiting @ Reklar for a couple hours with a guildmate (another dragon). No one was actually killing Reklar during this time. The player told me that she and her guildmate were waiting for another guildmate or friend to log in so that they could kill Reklar. This would have brought their party size to 3. I told them they would need more than that, and that she should just wait for another group to show up and join that one. She responded that they "needed" the items for themselves and so didn't want to take their chances randoming with a larger group. I told her that their chances would be better by randoming with an existing group that was killing him every 20 minutes then waiting around for hours (and not killing him at all) with a group that would be unable to kill him. They refused, even when I later sent them a tell to let them know that a group large enough to kill Reklar had finally arrived. They did NOT want to random for an item in a large group.

    There are no cloak-and-dagger strategies, or at least, I very much doubt that there are. What's the point of announcing that an epic is up, when it's been up for days and will be up again in 20 minutes?

    What you have is very simple. If a group feels like going out and killing an Epic, they kill him because they can and have the right number of players to do so. I also heard of a situation where one Epic stumbled across a group where they are hunting and interfered with their hunting, they either kill him for being a pest, or they ask some of their friends to get rid of the guy and hope that he doesn't spawn in the same spot 20 minutes later so they can hunt in peace.

    I don't understand your expectation that players should include someone they don't know in their hunts. And why Epics? No one would expect to be invited if someone is hunting rare comps if you want/need them also.

    You made a lot of claims of things occurring that don't. You stated that players wait for days for an epic and then it gets stolen before they have time to buff. There is no multiple day epic timer in Istaria, however there are for the world bosses in WoW. Of the THOUSANDS of players on each shard for WoW, only a very small percentage have ever participated in killing a world boss; most guilds/groups never have the opportunity. Why? Because it takes work and dedication and yes, a huge amount of resources/time put into the effort.

    Regarding your concern regarding a "growing lack of cohesion as groups get more introverted."

    When has that NOT been the case? Guilds, by their very nature, tend to do things together and with friends/partner guilds. But it has always been who knows who and who is friends with whom. Not only in this game, but in life also. When picking teams for dodgeball, just as an example, the captain picks his friends and/or the best player available, then the other team captain does the same. That goes on until the teams are full. Are there benchsitters? Of course, that's in every sport/game.

    In the real world, take treasure hunters as an example. They don't broadcast a find to the entire world and hope that rival treasure hunters show up to help them, instead, they follow their clues and hope that they find something worthwhile.

    There are usually enough players in the epic channels so that if EVERYONE in there were ready to drop what they're doing, they could take out an epic. That it isn't happening shows a lack of desire to do so, unless it's at the mutual convenience of those in the channel.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    Quote Originally Posted by Creme View Post
    There are no cloak-and-dagger strategies, or at least, I very much doubt that there are. What's the point of announcing that an epic is up, when it's been up for days and will be up again in 20 minutes?
    Wait...

    20 minutes?

    This is a pathetic rant.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    Bit of a late response, but I play MANY mmos, and every game by far has had worse campers than horizons could ever have. On other games i've been everything from cursed at to PKed(on games that allow PKing) and all the stuff in between because I simply just GO to a spot where someone is camping. In those games, you're lucky to even get to see a boss mob without some random person getting mad at you.

    Yes, I agree that "certain" campers on Chaos are pretty bad, but not bad comparred to what it could be.

    As for guild-exclusive hunts, the only one of those I've been on is Fafnir, who is a major pain anyways, and it usually is just a spur of the moment thing Otherwise, I've only seen bunches of groups in different guilds do hunts, and I've only participated in such hunts.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiamarra View Post
    Yes, I agree that "certain" campers on Chaos are pretty bad, but not bad comparred to what it could be.
    From my point of view, there ARE NO CAMPERS on Chaos.

    I've recently seen Fafnir and Daknor up for several hours with no one hunting them. I know Reklar has been up for several hours during the same timeframe, and I believe SoG was also.

    I know of a handful of people, from at least 4 different guilds who do epic hunts on a semi-regular basis, and from what I can tell, anyone is invited.

    I hunted Daknor with a very mixed group of guilds one day. We killed him four times (hour and a half or so). During that time, no one else showed up and no one was asking about him in a public chat channel.

    I just see Melanth's whole rant as completely baseless.
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    I tend to try avoiding rants. My opinions can be...caustic at best. I'll keep the acidic saliva (text) at bay.

    I honestly believe 20 minutes for a respawn on a mob that drops the "leetest" loots is a poor idea. it makes them worth little, and it certainly doesn't help the lack of economy. Selling pieces and weapons happens now yes, but its for so litttle coin, I could make it hunting blights for a short time.

    AROP/ROP mobs have a longers respawn. Most named mobs do. I personally see that as a problem. I'm not going to even touch the camping part of the topic with a 100 foot pole. I've been in circles with so many people about it, people know how I feel.

    The timer however bothers me. Feel free to PM me on here or Chaos if you really care about my stance on it that much.

    I can't agree with Kumu more. No items that drop from a 20 min respawn is rare. Wait anotehr 20 min. You'll get it in days where as a demon claw or blood talon could take months.

    Also when i heard they made the named less evil to fight I was a little concerned, but I just ignored it. When SoG is soloable by dragons I think we have an issue. Its not just one dragon who has done it either, I know of a few now. Kinda makes me sad.

    Which leads me to the fact that resistances I feel are mildly overpowered, but thats for another day. I just don't think its impressive to win if your foe can't hurt you. I have sets made for it, its a very one sided fist fight, Robot Chicken style.(for those of you who watch it that line will make sense). the one sided ness stands for any.

    I'll be honest, here comes a hint of venom. Sorry. I'm glad I collected the loot I wanted when they were harder, glad i learned the hardcore tactics it took. makes me feel better and I give myself a pat on the back.

    They did get easier. I don't mind people taking advantage of it, I would have had I not had what I wanted. Just kinda my treatise on epics. hope I didn't offend anyone too much. I'm trying to watch my mouth/fingers lately.

    Have a great day in istaria.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Epic Madness Medley

    well, my thoughts here:

    There are still a lot of players, who never hunted epics, and have no epic weapons. New players but long term players too.
    And I understand that they are frustrated.
    But this is nobody`s fault atm, as far as I can see.

    Epic hunts have to be well organized, and experienced players are essential, to help and train the new generation.
    And I think it`s hard for new or unknown players to get a group together, or get invited to a hunt.
    Why? I do not think there is anyone to blame. It`s for many reasons.
    Different reasons, depending on the shard you play.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

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