Helping Noobs that POOF!! UUURRGH

[Yarsgo]

I like to help newbies. Really I do. Well, really, until last week, I did...

I should have learned by now. Last week was the 4th time it's happened in the last several months. About 3 weeks ago, I made a newbie a complete set of armor for his t1 character and made another set for when he hit level 21. I threw in multi-level weapons (teched the t2 stuff), gave tips, showed him where to hunt, helped heal/rez him for awhile so he could get on his feet. Showed him how to craft, stressed the importance of quests at his level, gave him a little coin, etc...I was the model "Guide to Istaria". It was looking soooo good...

Then last week, it was all thrown in my face, AGAIN. Through an acquaintance of his, I found out that he left the game after a 2 week stint. AAARRGGHH...NOT AGAIN!!! Yes, again. Apparently he got frustrated because he couldn't gain levels fast enough. I can only guess why the others left.

Can someone restore my faith in this regard?? I could have been out helping my much-more established friends level-up, or making higher grade goodies for them, but noooooo...For the 4th time in just a few months, I had to spend those countless hours on someone who was a complete waste of time. I don't want to give up helping new players, but dangit, major frustration has set in!!

OK, I feel better now...still angry, but better

Am I alone in this experience? Am I really so gullible? Is my faith in new characters one of false hope? From now on, should I just throw the noobs to the beetles- and help only those who have reached, maybe, level 40 and possibly proved their dedication to Istaria??

[Shian]

If I didn't have a few sets of armor thrown at me during my trial, I surely would have gotten bored very quickly. Fortunatly comps and low level armor are easy to obtain and make for a high level player.

Whatever time you lost hunting big stuff you can make up. I know that time is the most precious commodity here, but so is new blood. Every chance we have to possibly interest a new player, we should take it. Even if five new players decline and move on and only one stays, that is still one new valuble member. Everything else can be replaced.

I don't know if you've seen the "bloodline of Order" scroll but it's common for parent dragons to make new alts and play the childeren of thier childern. The lines fly in circles and we all know each other's style by now. If we don't have new players come in and shake us up a bit, we'll get bored and eventually leave.

Who else do we have tto make us feel smart by answering 'dumb questions'? :P

[Tzael]

It is one thing to be generous by helping the newcomers, in so much as supplying them with what is actually very good equipment. However, what is the point of simply gifting them with the best gear for their level when they haven't done anything to earn it other than turn up and declare themselves a newcomer who would like some help?

Teach them to fish, it will improve the probability of them sticking around as opposed to simply handing them the fish and removing the sense of accomplishment from their gaming experience altogether. In other words, by teaching them you are instilling the ability for them to achieve goals through effort, which is distinctly more gratifying than being handed everything on a silver platter. Gaining levels is not a gratifying experience unless effort has been invested.

I'm not saying you are in the wrong for being generous; you simply have to consider that generosity isn't always the answer when it comes to retaining players and new friends in this genre of online games.

[Dhalin]

Unfortunately, for bipeds, they made it so that it is very difficult... I mean very difficult.... to get through Tier 1 and beyond. The skill requirements to make Armor alone is absolutely ridiculous. My Saris is meant to be a Warrior + Cleric of sorts, so I need metal armor, and lots of it.

The Refurbished Armor is nice and all, but... is nowhere near as good as the crafted pieces, and the crafted pieces... well, I have Lv17 outfitter, and I can *only* make Platemail Bracers. I can't even make a CHAINmail body yet. They have the requirements to make a Chainmail body jacked way up to 190... that's almost 200, the skill required to make Iron Bars and Iron Tools. I can only wonder what the Platemail Body is...

So lemme get this right. To make a Tier 1 item, I have to have skill way into Tier 2, to do it? That's a bit ridiculous. It seems crafting is _required_ to get anywhere lately, and with new players bailing (I think I'd bail too if it weren't for the fact I have a high-level dragon alt), it is difficult to get help, for all I know, I am another newbie who is gonna bail on them.

People don't like feeling helpless. Getting through Tier 1 is much too harsh for a biped, and equipment acquisition. I hate having to constantly beg for help time and time again with nothing to offer in return.... maybe when the game was full of newbies helping each other, it was better back then.... but now... with so many high level players, busy with their own conquests... it isn't so good to have T1-T2 equipment so hard to obtain by oneself.

[Reisende]

Some of my troubles when I first began to play, is probably based on what this thread talks about.

Maybe along the lines of "O if she gets through her rop, she will quit playing after getting to fly." (that was stated in another thread.)

Only a few noticed my crafting lvl was quite high "for some one who might quit after ascending" and they came to my aid.

I maybe wrong, and then I maybe right.

As well, there were personal problems of which a few took the time to listen and give a shoulder for me to cry on. Sue me, I am a girl so I have the right to cry :P )

I made my ascension, and I lvled my crafting to cap, wasnt far from it by the time of my ascension ).

I went out of my way to help others, to share what the others had shown me when I needed it most.

And I continue to do so, some I have never seen again, but you know what? I am sad they didnt stay, but like Shian said, it is the one out of a few that stayed, that was my reward for helping them in their time of need.

I am an ancient now with my crafting caped long before I ascended to ancient. And it was due to those who did help, and those who gave me a shoulder, that I am still here.

Had it not been for them I would of come to believe what my husband came to believe, and I would of been gone.

You never know what will happen by helping or not helping a newbie, till you make the effort or dont make the effort.

(psst, the dumb questions Shian mentions were mine :P , but like she and Grakke and Nida always told me as Well as Sephiranoth and Dranslin, there are never any dumb questions except those not asked, so according to them I never asked a dumb question, guess I was being smart )

[Kumu Honua]

You can thank the dumbed down MMO's for this type of thing.

Instant gratification or nothing! Work for things? You gotta be kidding!

The quality of MMO players has plummeted in the last 10 years or so. If you look back to games like Everquest, Ultima Online, or Meridian 59, you will see where the genre has gone. Death is no longer meaningful. You don't lose all your equipment, you don't lose experience, you don't lose time retrieving your corpse...

I know that when I had to work to get things for my character, whether it was equipment or levels, I was defensive of those items. Giving away things may sound good in practice, but really it's not. You have given them things that mean nothing to them. And since you have given them the best they can get. They have nothing to gain.

Also, Horizons does have that as a problem for them. There is no loot. Nothing to get from your kills other than more crap you don't need. That doesn't help.

[Shian]

(psst, the dumb questions Shian mentions were mine :P

Actually, I was refffering to myself. Nothing like graduating from 'noob' status when you can start answering those questions instead of asking them. It's a good feeling ^_^

New MMOs- Instant gratification or nothing! Work for things? You gotta be kidding!

Hmm.... there's an article around here about a guild of FFXI players getting seriously ill because they had to fight a boss for 18 hours straight. Not exactly what I would call 'no work', especially from a group of players that fought something like this once before. (the article didn't say how long the last battle was)

You don't lose all your equipment, you don't lose experience, you don't lose time retrieving your corpse....

Was that fun though? Did you still want to play or is it when newer games came out, you played those because one would rather keep the equipment they worked so hard to get? (this is hypothetical) The game is not fun if you sit yourself in a tavern all day for fear of losing your gear.

I know that when I had to work to get things for my character, whether it was equipment or levels, .

We still have to work for levels. No matter what you give them, there is always something else to work for. You may have given them a good hunting set, but now they have to work for the 6 or 7 crafting sets they'll need. Or maybe the hand-me-down dosen't have the exact techs they want so they have to re-build the set. Sure, I had two high level dragons help me on one of my combat quests... kill frost pygmies or some sort? Yeah, it was fun sitting on a ridge watching two adult dragons lay waste to everything in that valley, but the other nine in that series I had to do myself. And crafting in HZ is 'work' no matter how you paint it.

I was defensive of those items.You have given them things that mean nothing to them. And since you have given them the best they can get. They have nothing to gain.

We still have to work for gear. Are you really going to just GIVE someone a full set of TV gear with health techs on them? If so, send them my way please. It's highly doubtful you have given them 'the best gear'

And the stuff you gave them means nothing? Pah. I still have a set of T2 combat gear my A'mea crafted for me. I've had several adults tell me they've kept such and such scale from a set *I* crafted for them and it still bears my mark, so don't try and tell me that the gesture means nothing.

Also, Horizons does have that as a problem for them. There is no loot. Nothing to get from your kills other than more crap you don't need. That doesn't help.

Problem? I consider it a blessing. This game has other 'attractors' than the loot grind vice that every other MMO in existance decides to use. Whenever something new comes out, the old gear is immediatly no longer 'top gear' and you must go get new stuff. After three years of it, I got really tired of chasing that carrot as the stuff I worked long and hard for was voided within a week.

If this game ever gets to the point where your gear means more than you do, I'll be back in those other games where you are just what you wear and the toon means nothing. This is one of the only games I've played where my character means more than what she's wearing and I adore that.

[Tzael]

It's quite simple really - the age-old risk / reward equation. The bigger the risk, the bigger the reward. If there is no risk, then there is no reward by way of a sense of accomplishment.

Shian asks Kumu if the way of the older MMO was fun. Simply put, yes it was. By constantly having a risk, you were rewarded by a persistent sense of accomplishment.

Unfortunately nowadays a fair percentage of the people are expecting an instant gratification from these sorts of games, and that is what eliminates the most important element - the challenge. Without the challenge there can be no true sense of accomplishment, and we might as well all simply treat MMOs as glorified 3D chat rooms.

[Kumu Honua]

Hmm.... there's an article around here about a guild of FFXI players getting seriously ill because they had to fight a boss for 18 hours straight. Not exactly what I would call 'no work', especially from a group of players that fought something like this once before. (the article didn't say how long the last battle was)

That's one game. What about Conan? Vanguard? WoW? EQ2?...

Was that fun though? Did you still want to play or is it when newer games came out, you played those because one would rather keep the equipment they worked so hard to get? (this is hypothetical) The game is not fun if you sit yourself in a tavern all day for fear of losing your gear.

YES! BY GOD YES!

The fear of loss was something that drove people to succeed in the face of the possibility of that loss.

Without that possibility of loss you lose all sense of tactics as it becomes: Everyone at once. Go. Do whatever to kill it! Darn we died? Oh well, try again, there were no consequences...

We still have to work for levels. No matter what you give them, there is always something else to work for. You may have given them a good hunting set, but now they have to work for the 6 or 7 crafting sets they'll need. Or maybe the hand-me-down dosen't have the exact techs they want so they have to re-build the set. Sure, I had two high level dragons help me on one of my combat quests... kill frost pygmies or some sort? Yeah, it was fun sitting on a ridge watching two adult dragons lay waste to everything in that valley, but the other nine in that series I had to do myself. And crafting in HZ is 'work' no matter how you paint it.

We still have to work for gear. Are you really going to just GIVE someone a full set of TV gear with health techs on them? If so, send them my way please. It's highly doubtful you have given them 'the best gear'

And the stuff you gave them means nothing? Pah. I still have a set of T2 combat gear my A'mea crafted for me. I've had several adults tell me they've kept such and such scale from a set *I* crafted for them and it still bears my mark, so don't try and tell me that the gesture means nothing.

You can't pick apart that one sentence to get 3 separate things to discuss.

The OP stated that they gave them the best hunting gear for a full 21 levels of their classes existence. About 1/4 of their time would be spent fully decked out.

With that in mind, their first set meant nothing. They would outgrow it in X levels and they knew it because they already had set 2. They had nothing to upgrade because it was already teched. There was no loot to get that was better than what they had. Killing monsters became a treadmill that is worse than the treadmill in other games.

I didn't say that they had the best they would ever get. I said that they were given all they needed and they had no goals for the next 1/4 of their playing time. No incentive to stay at all. No goals.

Problem? I consider it a blessing. This game has other 'attractors' than the loot grind vice that every other MMO in existance decides to use. Whenever something new comes out, the old gear is immediatly no longer 'top gear' and you must go get new stuff. After three years of it, I got really tired of chasing that carrot as the stuff I worked long and hard for was voided within a week.

Yes, for you. Obviously the OP has seen the other side that you are not. The new player that shows up and is given all he needs for the next 1/4 of his perceived game time with nothing to go after...

Yay! I'm in Istaria!

"Welcome to Istaria, I am giving you some equipment for the next 21 levels!"

Awesome! I will now go kill monsters!

DIE MONSTER! Loot 3 copper and a sandstone. DIE MONSTER! Loot 4 copper and a salt rock. DIE MONSTER! Loot 5 copper and blighted sandstone...

Hey guys? Is there any loot to be found?

"Sorry, in Istaria everything is crafted. Monsters drop craft items to make better items!"

Well, what's the point. I can get another level but then what? Another level?

"Hey guys, where did that newbie go?"...

If this game ever gets to the point where your gear means more than you do, I'll be back in those other games where you are just what you wear and the toon means nothing. This is one of the only games I've played where my character means more than what she's wearing and I adore that.

Yes, and it would work if the Withered Aegis attacked. If it was back to the event status of old. If there was a goal. If there were things to do that weren't simply a treadmill that doesn't even have a carrot...

[Silverblaze]

This rant more or less discusses different views of the state of this game, or so it seems.

Many good points have been made thus far, I actually enjoy reading this one.

I can say though perhaps rather than ranting, you join me in my crusade to make constructive suggestions or criticisms in an attempt to better the game.

For example...loot.

As for the new players. i too have become jaded. I have even helped aid my RL best friend play this game. he still pays his account, but even he left. I assume his leaving is more Rl related, but... perhaps its the other game factors. You've certainly given me something to think about.

[Dhalin]

Um, Kumu, there is a difference between Work and Needless Tedium, and the feel of wasting 5+ hours of your time and barely putting a drop in the bucket, and not seeing much of any improvement to your character.

I do not enjoy logging on, spending 5+ hours, only to realize that during those 5+ hours, any "progress" I made, isn't even visible. It is even worse, when I am doing the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

It just doesn't seem fun to me when I drag a disk full of metal bars to a smelter, make and decon the items (not gaining ANYTHING from it, other than XP) and spend several hours doing this, and get a 3-4 levels. Meanwhile, those 3-4 levels -might- make my character able to make something new, then again, maybe not. Or maybe what I can make, is of no use to me. What was the point? I just blew 5+ hours and got nothing much out of it. I can blow another 5+ hours and maybe, maybe then I might see an improvement.

In WoW, you start out, the first 10 levels snap snap snap snap... but as you get into the high 60s, still a decent pace, and then once you hit 70, your TRUE game starts. Yes, WoW, you level Quickly and you kill things Easily, and crafts zip right up, until near the end.

When you get to the end though... there are a whole smorgasboard of dungeons you can do, you can go into the PvP side instead (I don't like that kinda thing myself, honestly, but hats off to those who do) if you wished, there's just... so much to do. WoW makes you work, just as much, if not more so than Horizons itself does!

The difference? In WoW, your work is VARIED. My Lv70 (Max Level) Warrior there has a lot of things to do:

1). I could build Reputation. My Aldor Rep still needs maxed.
2). I could do daily quests for money.
3). There are several dungeons that have pieces of armor I need.
4). My Blacksmithing still needs leveled, I got 15 more levels to go.
5). There are even more dungeons, that I could obtain crafting formulas from.
6). I could always PvP on my off time, if I were into that kinda thing.
7). I could help my GF get materials for her enchanting.
8). I could work on my other characters, who I made to support my Warrior, with their crafts and farming abilities.

That's a whole variety of stuff to do. My Dragon?

1). Kill crap over and over and over again.
2). Adventurer quests. Nice, I love these, something Different to do! They don't last long, however.....
3). Lairshape (fun, but it gets old.. I have to take breaks, or I suffer burn-out)
4). The endless hunt for Expert Forms for DCRA... I got a lot of them, but still a few I'm missing.

What else is there to do?

Well, there's my Biped.... Warrior 8, Cleric 4.... but... I need armor and weapons. Guess what I gotta do? Yup, I gotta level Blacksmithing (or Weaponsmithing) and Outfitter (or Armorsmith) up to at least Lv25 so I can make a full set of Tier 1. I Adventure up until Lv20ish, and... oh wait, I gotta make More Armor... probably need to get up to at least 35 to do half of the Tier2 armor... gah.

What does leveling craft involve? Yup, making/deconning the same item hundreds of times. At least DCRA had quests every 10 levels...

In Horizons, you do the same thing over and over and over again. Just how many times am I supposed to collect a cargodisk full of Iron, drag it to a shop and make/decon tools, and continue to find that fun? It might be fun the first 5 times, but.... 500 times later, I'm thinking "oh God when will I ever get to do something different?"

[Kumu Honua]

All you did was focus on my tangential mere mention of WoW. I won't even respond to your post till you re-read what I have said.

[Shian]

That's one game. What about Conan? Vanguard? WoW? EQ2?......

Conan... I can't get past my crafting quests at ALL. I've been in that game for months and still don't have my "rare T1" quest done on anything but ebon ash. Same with Vanguard. Making any sort of progress is just too slow but that's definatly tedious work that rivals our grind.

EQ2 has the mentor system, so rarely had to work for anything as I had high level friends besides run an instance 5 times for a Raincaller or any other loot I needed. There was only two things I really found I had to work for- camping server uptime so I could get all the discoveries on my crafter and getting a high safefall. Man was cliff jumping a thrill.

Wow.... I can't play Wow. The game is too 'basic' for me and every mechanic they have, another game does it better.

Without that possibility of loss you lose all sense of tactics as it becomes: Everyone at once. Go. Do whatever to kill it! Darn we died? Oh well, try again, there were no consequences...

Hence why time is the most valuble commodity here.

I didn't say that they had the best they would ever get. I said that they were given all they needed and they had no goals for the next 1/4 of their playing time. No incentive to stay at all. No goals

DIE MONSTER! Loot 3 copper and a sandstone. DIE MONSTER! Loot 4 copper and a salt rock. DIE MONSTER! Loot 5 copper and blighted sandstone...

Hey guys? Is there any loot to be found?

"Sorry, in Istaria everything is crafted. Monsters drop craft items to make better items!"

Well, what's the point. I can get another level but then what? Another level?

The game is what you make of it. If they're so blindsighted by the 'loot vice' that other games have put them through, then maybe it's good to be in a game where that's not there. I wasn't sure what to make of this game either.

What kind of game is this? No loot, no economy, everything handed away.... how are people playing this game? I stayed because I was curious for answers. I found a strange niche game that dosen't have such outward or obvious qualities like 'best game mechanic X'.

If this game ever gets to the point where your gear means more than you do, I'll be back in those other games where you are just what you wear and the toon means nothing. This is one of the only games I've played where my character means more than what she's wearing and I adore that.

Yes, and it would work if the Withered Aegis attacked. If it was back to the event status of old. If there was a goal. If there were things to do that weren't simply a treadmill that doesn't even have a carrot...

I think you misunderstood my statement. It was meant to say, (using the Wow example,) if you link a purple item what is that player on the end admiring? The loot. He couldn't give a flip about your character and how he fits into the world much less what your name is. Here, your players actions mean more than what level you are or what gear you're wearing.

As a tiny hatchling I was RPing with people in dragon channel that were Ancients, people that had been here for three years and they didn't care what level I was. They were happy to see what my character would do. Heck one of our most respected shard members is what... 32?

In what other game do you get that where your level dosen't matter or how long you've been playing?

I do not enjoy logging on, spending 5+ hours, only to realize that during those 5+ hours, any "progress" I made, isn't even visible. It is even worse, when I am doing the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!

I will say I agree with this, but I'm not sure how to fix it. It's disheartening to work on crafting or lairshaping with days of hours of prepwork with no visible progress until you're finished.

[Sayamie]

Hmm.... there's an article around here about a guild of FFXI players getting seriously ill because they had to fight a boss for 18 hours straight. Not exactly what I would call 'no work', especially from a group of players that fought something like this once before. (the article didn't say how long the last battle was)

The NM battle you refer to is that against Absolute Virtue who is the single hardest and rarest boss in the game (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Absolute_Virtue)

Just a random fact *used to play FFXI*

[pevil2000]

What we need is for less 'WoW' clone (yes I know wow is a clone of EQ and even older games) MMOs and have some variety. I grew up in the MMO world on UO and witnessed it turn from a unique experience into what is, effectively, another 'WoW' (but still way better ) and Hz is the nearest I've found to another UO. I personally can't wait for Darkfall, as it will (in theory) be far, far different to the other MMOs out and about now. And I personally like a mix; for when I just want to do things the 'easy' way I enjoy playing WoW, and if I want a bit of a challenge, the time was that I'd get on UO and go do a tough dungeon that I'd never explored before, or on here I'll go comp hunting, or perhaps hunt an epic.

Anyhoo no, you're not the only one who gets 'owned' by newbs hehe. I tend to do the same thing, though I'm more of a 'give them basic items and teach them to make the good stuff'. Mainly hatchies of course; I've been known to give them fully teched T1 chest, head and wing but then leave them to work the rest out for themselves (I will often give them that set before they're even level 10, so they have something to aim for in those early levels).

I have to say though... while Hz may seem to be the 'simpler' of games, it is more varied by a long shot for me (same with UO). UO and Hz allow you to do what you want and become what you want, which means the grinding... doesn't feel like a grind. In WoW or EQ2 no matter what I do, at the end of it I'm still just gonna be another one of those 9 classes, with 1 of 3 possible specs... so why do anything? Sure, I can gain rep, or do dailys, or level a craft but all of those things are the same day in day out, just like crafting on hz and feel like I HAVE to do them. If I don't then I won't get taken to a dungeon, or will lose out on the epic flyer or *insert multiple possibilities here* In Hz I *can* lairshape if I feel like it, or I *can* craft my own set of armour, or I *can* go hunt random mobs... or I *can* just sit and chat and not feel like I'm gonna get yelled at, or left behind, or miss out on anything. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy WoW But... well in more 'open' games like UO or Hz... if the grinding feels like a grind, maybe you're not really playing to be the character you truly are?

What can I say, I'm in love with the open worlds, do what you want, be what you want, go where you want. A persistant world, without zones, or instances, where everything is an adventure and everyone is a character, not just a bunch of pixels with a few blues/purples stuck to their paperdoll.

[Kumu Honua]

Conan... I can't get past my crafting quests at ALL. I've been in that game for months and still don't have my "rare T1" quest done on anything but ebon ash. Same with Vanguard. Making any sort of progress is just too slow but that's definatly tedious work that rivals our grind.

EQ2 has the mentor system, so rarely had to work for anything as I had high level friends besides run an instance 5 times for a Raincaller or any other loot I needed. There was only two things I really found I had to work for- camping server uptime so I could get all the discoveries on my crafter and getting a high safefall. Man was cliff jumping a thrill.

Wow.... I can't play Wow. The game is too 'basic' for me and every mechanic they have, another game does it better.

That's what I mean. All the newest incarnations of MMO's are "basic". There's no consequences and nothing changes.

Horizons started as the good idea. You impacted the world. You built things, you defeated the aegis! Then it went to hell in a handbasket with the buying and selling and stagnation.

Now it's an MMO treadmill like all the rest, but it doesn't even have that carrot unless your only goal is to be a dragon or craft. You can't go after "Uber_Sword_of_0.01%_better_than_you_have_now" really.

The game is what you make of it. If they're so blindsighted by the 'loot vice' that other games have put them through, then maybe it's good to be in a game where that's not there. I wasn't sure what to make of this game either.

What kind of game is this? No loot, no economy, everything handed away.... how are people playing this game? I stayed because I was curious for answers. I found a strange niche game that dosen't have such outward or obvious qualities like 'best game mechanic X'.

Yes, but the OP met "The adventurer" instead of "The crafter" or "The role-player". The OP met the adventurer and took away any incentive to stay by taking away any sort of goals for 1/4 of his characters existance. He didn't do it on purpose but Istaria didn't help in that regard either.

I think you misunderstood my statement. It was meant to say, (using the Wow example,) if you link a purple item what is that player on the end admiring? The loot. He couldn't give a flip about your character and how he fits into the world much less what your name is. Here, your players actions mean more than what level you are or what gear you're wearing.

As a tiny hatchling I was RPing with people in dragon channel that were Ancients, people that had been here for three years and they didn't care what level I was. They were happy to see what my character would do. Heck one of our most respected shard members is what... 32?

I understood you perfectly. You want you to mean something. Great, that would work if Istaria went back to it's days of events. Not only would it keep the current player base even more interested, but these new players would have more incentive to stay. Which is what the topic of this post is all about.

Yes, you are there, but that person who was given 21 levels worth of equipment saw nothing for him in the near future and simply left...

In what other game do you get that where your level dosen't matter or how long you've been playing?

Eve. And Eve has consequences.

[Justa Mirage]

Not mentioned too much in this thread is community interaction with said newbie...

We had a new player wandering around the maple treants the other day, 0 level in both craft and adventure. We talked to him at my plot down in Sanctuary bay. He said he was exploring the world, to see what this game looked like. (a noble cause)

He said... I keep running from monsters that will kick my butt. So we explained to him how hoard worked, how armor rose as you leveled, and that you will soon find that the mobs won't kick your butt so quickly.

He went back to Skulkaar and finished his quests and last I looked he was 5/4

I feel for the OP because, yes, it happens to all of us who lend a community helping hand to assist new players, just to have them POOF! they are the risks we take when taking on new players.

Kumu... Low level mobs drop refurbished equipment now, along with beginner forms, and if you fight the WA near parsinia, you can get blighted items. Not all loot is coin and sand. My wife flew her dragon into the Dead Pool and fought the undead there and pulled out many crystals, blighted items, and hoard. There is "loot" just not enough of it on regular mobs. Only the WA seem to have the good stuff. You won't find a magic sword or piece of armor, or a crystal, off of a desert wolf. The game forces you to do battle with the WA if you want anything you could consider "loot worthy of using"

[Silverblaze]

I have the greatest compliment I can ever give HZ. I never run out of things to do...different things. I've heard many arguements to the contrary. I still disagree.

Until someone has mastered all crafts, gotten a 26 million hoard (rounding), mastered all teh adventure schools, built a plot, built a lair, tersted out what races have abilites that seem to matter most, seen the wonders and views of the towers of magic, collected end game gear, and many otehr small things one can personally accomplish. (quests [big thing for some], guild relted thigns, collected rare hoardables, colelcted X crystal, amde X cash to buy X item...when one gets bored with this game, it is a conscious choice not to try to find something to do.)

When one has matered all of these things, they stop playing. I can think of only one whop has does this, and I question the speed he accomplished it all in. Alas, I consider this man a friend and will not accuse him of anything. I also hope he comes back.

Again, rather than arguing or ranting about this...or picking at/on each other, perhaps construct ways to make istaria a better palce for newbs and vets alike?

***Edit: in a rush, too many typos to fix, forgive me.

[Veruliyam]

Dude. I think my dictionary just exploded.

[Dhalin]

The NM battle you refer to is that against Absolute Virtue who is the single hardest and rarest boss in the game (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Absolute_Virtue)

Just a random fact *used to play FFXI*

Actually, you're looking for a mob called "Pandemonium Warden".

A linkshell fought him for 18 hours and gave up, stating that at least another 5 was needed.

Myself? I think that is incredibly ridiculous.