Novians - And Novian Farming

[Steele]

Attach the type of object and you can fill a vault even if it's empty. Yikes! That's why I suggested it be for the whole structure instead.

Aaaah... but if you know you're not going to be able to use Novian Shop resources for a silo or guild hall, and you don't intend to build a compatible shop, you might be more inclined to simply destroy the leftover unused ones instead of storing them, lessening the propensity for having Novian alts. Maybe.

You also might be less inclined to go after a plot in auction if you know the "effective Novian value" vs. the cash investment isn't gonna be that great a return, thus distilling the competition down more toward those who would use it as-is or for similar structures... which might also help the community retain some key public structures. It's all a hedged bet at this point, but it's an idea.

Ah. Okay. Handy, that. Back to the "what are we willing to give up if we want to stop this" eh?

*nod* indeed... if I put in the time, I'd like to retain the fruits of that labor - but at the same time, how complex a system do we ask the devs to implement (and when does it become not worth the manpower to design and code)? And how hard would it be for new (or even veteran) players to understand? Gotta find a middle ground somehow.

[Steele]

Easy way to solve all this: When Auctions come up just delete all structures from the plot and all you are auctioning on is the plot site itself. No novians available. I thought from previous posts and threads that the most sought after item was a better plot.

Do away with the Novain farming all together.

When a player finally decides to quit the game and his account is no longer payed up then do the same. Delete the structures and have the plot come available for sale. Nothing on it.

...this way you can guarantee that the community will inevitably lose key structures, instead of giving the community a chance to preserve them?

I mentioned this idea in my post a few above, but I personally don't think it's worth forcing a retiring player to either a) turn their retirement into a plot derby, b) risk upsetting the server community by selling privately to someone the community doesn't approve of or who betrays that trust, or c) guarantee burning their bridges by not selling to anyone and having all that hard work go *POOF!* - ESPECIALLY if the community pitches in to help build, say, whatever new wood shop eventually gets built in Harton Valley. I don't want to imagine the nightmare situation that would be.

[Aaelefein]

Out of all this discussion...I think one very important thing should be mentioned...

Irritation of farmers aside...

I DO NOT want to see Novians removed from the game...

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And I do like the idea of a "Novian <enter structure name here>"...and there's no reason that when placing it...it is 80% Complete...just like it would have been if broken down into individual components

[Shian]

Out of all this discussion...I think one very important thing should be mentioned...

Irritation of farmers aside...

I DO NOT want to see Novians removed from the game...

What if there was something better than a novian? A structure token or something you could turn in for resources or parts?

[velveeta]

i agree with hobbie, myself.
can't keep a piece of cake and eat it too! either you risk selling to someone who will novafarm or you remove the novafarm opportunity beforehand.

in my limited opinion, i think removing the buildings before auction is the best way to stop novafarming.
plenty of time was given, this time anyway, for peeps to find a way to rescue what plots they considered worth saving. i would be in favor of having a similiar timeframe for future auctions.

[Landowyn]

Another Novian thread?

Another case of the in crowd trying to tell the rest of us how to live?

You people need to get off this crusade and concentrate on making your community a real community and not tell other folks how to play the game, even if you don't like the way they play or it does not suit your own version of morality.

I never notice the community jumping up to help me when I ask for it. The only people who do are the few friends I've made in Istaria. The real friends.

Get over yourselves and learn to live and let live. Look for real solutions to the so-called Novian problem by trying to find a way that fits into the tone of the game instead of putting limitations on people. Like having your salvage skill determine how many "resources" you get from a deconstruction.

Otherwise, please just shu. ... be quiet.

[Shian]

in my limited opinion, i think removing the buildings before auction is the best way to stop novafarming.
plenty of time was given, this time anyway, for peeps to find a way to rescue what plots they considered worth saving.

Right, but it didn't include the larger plots, only the smaller ones.

Have you looked at the live servers on what kinds of things we lose? The whole top of Shepard's Mountain is condemned, just to name one spot. There's structures on every plot including an expert shop, a large tavern and tons of other things. Yes, they're tied to a dead account, but *someone* out there spend an ungods amount of time and love making it. Seems to be a bit of an insult to raze it all without giving someone else the chance to have a new home. Something that won't take ungods years to build, but that goes back to 'what will the player do?'

As Land pointed out, the community isn't really jumping up to help rebuild things like this and even if they did as Order is trying to facilitate I'm not sure if we have the population to rebuild something like that.

On the other hand, hitting the 'reset' button on the server might be a good way to clear some of this mess up. No novians, all current plots not paid for gone. Question is, what effect will that have?

Look for real solutions to the so-called Novian problem by trying to find a way that fits into the tone of the game instead of putting limitations on people.

Actually that's what we're trying to put forward. All this is is a brainstorming session. There has to be something we haven't thought of yet. What's you suggestion?

can't keep a piece of cake and eat it too!

I never understood this phrase.... if I have a slice of cake, am I just supposed to put it on the counter and stare at it?

[Steele]

Have you looked at the live servers on what kinds of things we lose? The whole top of Shepard's Mountain is condemned, just to name one spot.

I sure as heck hope not! ...my wife and I have been residents of those two plots at the peak of Shep's Home since our return to the game last year. And we're definitely paid up; pretty sure they say "Owned" not "Condemned" but I'll go check the status just in case.

Tho one of our plots has been altered on Blight, now that you mention it... and not in a happy way.

Anyways, I'm not trying to get off topic here. Lemme go check the plots.

Edit: ok cool, both of our plots on Shep's Home on Order are "Owned" - but they're the only plots in the community that aren't "Condemned". Hopefully we'll have new neighbors soon.

[Shian]

Haven't checked the peak, but I do know the place below that -near the portal, those are all condemned. The point was, large taverns and such are rare, like our large gambling hall. Would be a shame to lose it as I doubt anyone would be jumping to re-build such a thing. Multipy that by how many condemned plots there are and that's quite a lot of re-work and a TON of lost time.

Hopefully we'll have new neighbors soon.

I'm waiting.... a bit impatiently too Like you, I'm the only one on my mountain.

Easy way to solve all this: When Auctions come up just delete all structures from the plot and all you are auctioning on is the plot site itself. No novians available. I thought from previous posts and threads that the most sought after item was a better plot.

It is, but being able to have a fully built plot would be great for a new player. As it's been stated, it's difficult to find help. It will be next to impossible with everyone trying to rebuild thier own plot all at once which will be the case if everything is destroyed.

[Shian]

*grumbles* Stupid edit timer...

Easy way to solve all this: When Auctions come up just delete all structures from the plot and all you are auctioning on is the plot site itself. No novians available. I thought from previous posts and threads that the most sought after item was a better plot.

Do away with the Novain farming all together.

When a player finally decides to quit the game and his account is no longer payed up then do the same. Delete the structures and have the plot come available for sale. Nothing on it. .

I can also put forward the argument that people would be less inclined to help work on another's plot just from the fear and paranoia of if that player decided to take a short break... or forgets to pay and goes on vacation among a ton of other 'oops' scenarios or from the simple fear of someone not showing up tomorrow. *poof*

There goes all friend's hard work and help. Ohh.. sorry about that. I was just on vacation. You wouldn't mind helping me rebuild would you? It only took us four weeks last time. Dosen't really foster community spirit.

[velveeta]

ah i see my problem, shian! i reside on blight, and i have only an extremely limited experience with the live (chaos) shards.
it must be the conditions on blight that form my knowledge (or lack thereof) of the situation.
(before i say the following, i wish to make clear that - aside from a natural patriotism, i do not mean to imply that i believe any one shard is better or worse than another) perhaps it is because we do not and have never had a large population and that we have, for the most part, been a big happy ( ) family since the tulga days and before, that this is not an issue on blight. i have designed 2 plots and remoded one, and i never had a lack of assistance - in fact, i have always acknowledged that i have done very little relative construction on my buildings! what is more, i have never, outside of a single gp i forced on someone, paid a cp for the work.
now, when i decide to move shop or even leave the game, shouldn't those peeps, who worked much harder than i did, get that investment back?

my ideal would be that peeps who have novians should be able to apply them as they wish - their own plot or anyone else's. this, to me, would be a better use for them than deleting them so you can use your vault again.

we don't really have novafarming on blight - no one wants to spend rl money to do that sort of thing, we just don't have enough of a population to support it, i guess, so i did not understand totally what it is. as with all exploits, i am fully and firmly behind whatever means the gods see fit to end or minimize anything that gives a few unfair advantage over the many.

however, i still do not approve of anything that limits what i can do with the sub i pay my very hard earned rl cash for. i can only afford one sub, therefore one plot. if i had the ability to have more plots, i would expect that as long as i followed the rules, i could do whatever i wished with the plots/lairs i purchased. personally, i would be more than open to posting my intentions and getting feedback from the community - any logical argument explained to me in small words - more than likely i personally would be persuaded as to the value of any/all buildings on the space. however, i would still expect it to be understood that anything i did while in legal possession of the property would be my bizniz and mine only.

does this make me a novafarmer? (i ask this question sincerely and not as a flame troll)

[Shian]

does this make me a novafarmer? (i ask this question sincerely and not as a flame troll)

You stated yourself that you don't think you have the population to support nova farmers, so the situation may be entirely moot for blight residents. You may not have to fear a single individual buying up every plot razing it to the ground then putting the resources into a private GH or some other private structure or cornering the market by selling off these ill gotten goods.

Or maybe you do. It would only take one.

i would expect that as long as i followed the rules, i could do whatever i wished with the plots/lairs i purchased.

Except what we're having to deal with is a loophole that people can use to get by the current in game mechanics. (no trade) The situation then becomes, how to best close the loophole without hurting legit players.

it must be the conditions on blight that form my knowledge (or lack thereof) of the situation.
(before i say the following, i wish to make clear that - aside from a natural patriotism, i do not mean to imply that i believe any one shard is better or worse than another) perhaps it is because we do not and have never had a large population and that we have, for the most part, been a big happy ( ) family.

Hmm.. another little tickmark in the category of how each shard is different. What is a concern to one, is barely a blip in another. Those studying online social and world behaivors would have a field day with us, I'm sure.

[Takora Drakan]

Hmm.. another little tickmark in the category of how each shard is different. What is a concern to one, is barely a blip in another. Those studying online social and world behaivors would have a field day with us, I'm sure.

You hit the nail on the head Shian.

I would describe the 3 Shards as follows:

Blight: The little grocery Shop where the owner knows what you want, talks to you and is even willing to order things for you that he has not normally in his shop. But the shop has not much to sell.

Order: The medium-sized supermarket in the town. Most people get there from the town, you know some, and even some shop helpers know you there and talk sometimes to you. You can get mostly what you wanted to buy there.

Chaos: The giant Shopping Centre with dozens and dozens of shops. A huge crowd is often there, you meet many people, but you hardly know anyone there. You get everything you wanted to buy.

Everyone enjoys different things, but if you go too often in the same shop you might get bored / not that what you want, or don't have the same problems like in the other shop.

That is just my point of view of the things.

[Justa Mirage]

As I have pointed out in other threads of this same topic... about novian farming... it's all about perception.

The law says "Don't drive faster than <nn>" but you know that there will be those that will drive faster. The law knows it's being done, they plead with you that it is wrong, but there is nothing they can do about it except tell you not to.

It is up to the "Individual" person playing the game that know that they "can" do the novian farming en-mass and tell themselves "I can but I won't, others depend on these buildings and structures and I don't need to be selfish and greedy." then they see someone speed past them and decon a plot. That individual then either keeps with "their" moral codes and values, or, can step on the gas pedal and go raid some plots for themselves so they aren't "left out"

Another perception thing is the "Have and Have nots"

There are those that work during patch day, those that live in Europe or the eastern hemisphere in various countries that will be asleep when the servers come back up on a day when plots can be razed.

Back to the "driving on the road" above... there aren't a roadway of cars just casually driving fast or slow, there is a NASCAR(tm) line of them all with cars that go over 120mph at the starting line. A lot of them are kids home from school, people that play hookie from work or take the day off, or don't have jobs. They are calculating and quick, with itineraries of where they are going to go first, what plots they will hit. They have probably spent weeks planning, scheming and checking for plots with valuable stuff (like money that may be on a structure, or expert / journeyman shops) and when the server comes on line, just like the gun to a race, "THERE OFF!!"

Of all of the days where people casually play this game day in and day out, there are certain events which bear this type of organization of players, it is a shame this is one of them.

And before someone says "I paid MY money 'I' can do what 'I' want with 'my' account, same with driving the car... I can drive 'my' car 'however' I want, as 'fast' as I want. Ok so I know it's breaking a rule or two... 'but what do I care'

And before someone says "I paid MY money 'I' bought this plot and can do anything 'I' want to it. I will say... I agree with that! but when people go around buying a plot, removing stuff from it and selling it back to the community within minutes, moving to the next farm... er... plot that is not "owning a plot and doing what I want with it as a community"

I can see someone coming into a town, buying the plot, deconning the equipment on it because they don't like the layout, wrong machines, etc. and rebuilding that plot to better serve themselves and possibly the community. However, having the intent of just removing said structures, without the intent of rebuilding in that community...

Well.... that my friends is the root of the problem between the players IMO

Any suggestions to fix this is a plus in my book, Novian farming in its basic form IS NOT BAD, Novian farming en-mass by certain groups or individuals with greedy intent IS BAD.

Of course... this is just my opinion. Cheers and happy playing.

[Aaelefein]

Justa Mirage...

I wish I had the words you used so eloquently!! You said and got across exactly what I have been trying.

Thank you!!

[Landowyn]

Any type of forced limitation on a specific segment of the population is a bad precedent to set. Once you've done it once, are you tempted to do it again? Has history taught us nothing?

We decon swords, helmets, tools and everything else into base materials, getting them partially returned. Why not do the same with plots and base the return on salvaging ability. That way, the non-builders would get very little return on their scavenging.

[LOVWYRM]

Justa, I sign each word you said.

Thank you for that!

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

Another case of the in crowd trying to tell the rest of us how to live?
Otherwise, please just shu. ... be quiet.

you totally miss the point here, like some others.
or you dont read the original post, or you trying to derail it.
but this is not about players telling other players what to do.
this is a united brainstorm effort to think up a -System- being enforced by code, that prevents people from abusing/pillaging the land!

Any type of forced limitation on a specific segment of the population is a bad precedent to set.

i see you play LOTRO alot... codemasters have a huge team of coders jumping on any bug/abuse issue being reported. why are the devs here not allowed to do that in your opinion?
i think they can and should....

and we are not talking here about buying a few plots to reuse the novians. we talking here about massive pillaging.... and how to prevent it
people stockpiling up 20 plots of fully build structures etc etc.

edit: why would anyone be against such a change i wonder? maby because they planning for weeks allready like justa said and that this planning would have been in vain?

[GalemThawn]

We decon swords, helmets, tools and everything else into base materials, getting them partially returned. Why not do the same with plots and base the return on salvaging ability. That way, the non-builders would get very little return on their scavenging.

The only builder that gets Salvaging ability is Enchanter. Tinkerer, a non--builder, would get the most Novians in return from plots.

[Mensar]

Easy way to solve all this: When Auctions come up just delete all structures from the plot and all you are auctioning on is the plot site itself. No novians available. I thought from previous posts and threads that the most sought after item was a better plot.

Do away with the Novain farming all together.

When a player finally decides to quit the game and his account is no longer payed up then do the same. Delete the structures and have the plot come available for sale. Nothing on it.

Sounds like a sure way to deter novian farmers.

Course.. I was just thinking.

If they need the novians, I'd rather they get them from structures than crowd the resource nodes with those of us that work to build our own stuff. ALthough I'd love to get some cheap novians, I don't really feel like it's worth the 5% unless it's a huge plot/lair.

But, then again, who really cares if they get the novians or not? Like the CM said in an earlier post.. the devs have their hands tied on stuff like this. Any change they make will probably upset or inconvenience half the population even if it fixes the perceived problem.

So beyond razing everything (which was the best suggestion I've seen yet since I, for one, don't want to have to bid against farmers to get the plots/lairs I want to buy) I don't know of any other good suggestion that will keep everyone happy.