Dragon Flight revamp?

[Galdethriel]

I was just sitting watching my dragon Galde flying on autorun today when I started thinking about what could possibly make the experience of flying more... interesting might be the word, or natural. (Obviously the request is for faaaaaaar far far into the future IF it was considered at all, since the devs are very busy with more important things )

You see, looking at the flying animations; they're good, no doubt. Firstly the actual physics behind it is pretty on the ball--the dragons don't just flap up and down but in a circular motion, which is nice. The way dragons bank to the side as they turn is also nice (the animation's broken, though, it only plays for a second then stops D: ). The thing that struck me is that the flying animation is very clunky for several reasons. Plenty people have complained about the hummingbird effect, which would be incredibly energy-consuming and not very practical on the dragon's part... but also even at normal speed, the flapping looks and feels quite strained and unrealistic, and there's no fluidity at all. :/

It's also very similar to running. Forwards, backwards, left and right, except with flight you go up and down too.

It's clunky and unnatural-feeling; large birds usually focus more on gliding anyway, but the animation doesn't feel like a great grand creature sailing through the skies. It's more like the dragons are struggling to stay into the air, flapping with too much effort, and there's nothing new between flying and running besides going up and down; I mean, there's no interesting interaction between objects on the ground; you can't swoop or dive or twist around something. You go over it or around it in the same way you run around things.

I was looking at some potential examples of more interesting and natural looking flight and settled on this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeAvb...eature=related

Note that I'm just looking at the dragon animation in itself (I would have suggested something more akin to Dragon Rage or some such, but this is more fair since it's on a computer too. )

Notice how much more relaxed the dragon seems, barely flapping and when it does it's noticably more effortless. This is closer to how many large birds fly; they don't have to flap like a hummingbird to stay in the air. The dragon here certainly doesn't look like it's struggling.

Overall, what I'm suggesting is:

• Update the flapping animation so that the wings move less; they should possibly be more relaxed like in the example.
  Maybe make a looped animation that consists mainly of gliding with the occassional relaxed flap for when you're going forwards? :O
  Reduce the exagguerated bobbing motion of the dragon as it flaps; this makes it look like it is struggling.
  If possible, make it so that you don't flap faster with velocity wingscales (hence the hummingbird effect XD ).
  Softer banking perhaps? To get rid of the left-right-up-down tedium of flying :P
  Tricks in the air would be nice! XD

Please note that no, I'm not wanting to make it a copy-pasta job of WoW, and also, if you're about to say : "Just angle your camera down during flight and it makes you glide!" that doesn't make it any less clunky when you inevitably do have to do the hummingbird thing to gain alitude. XD

Just my 2 coppers worth.

[welshdemon]

yeah i see what u mena mate maybe this is something for the future cos like you say the devs have enough to do but even so very good suggestion

[Shian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeAvb...eature=related

Note that I'm just looking at the dragon animation in itself

....

I'm trying to watch the animation, but that is by far the ugliest looking 'dragon' I have ever seen. Looks like it has horse hooves.. like they copied a model and forgot to change the feet. By that video though, it looks like it covers more ground than we do. There's also nothing in there that shows how it behaves when ascending. It would look even more unnatural if it kept the same 'glide' animation when ascending.

I like our animation. I like the fact that the head moves and the tail moves even while gliding. The base speed of the animation could be slowed down a lot though.

Granted, I've gotten used to pointing my camera down slightly so my dragon only flaps when I want it to.

Maybe add a checkbox in options to 'keep standard speed' regardless of what scales you are wearing?

[Galdethriel]

It would look even more unnatural if it kept the same 'glide' animation when ascending.

I'm not saying that we should glide when ascending, just don't flap as heavily. :P Besides, dragons in Istaria fly partly with magic, so another reason why they don't need to flap as much as they do. X3

I like the fact that the head moves and the tail moves even while gliding.

Yeah, that's a nice touch ^w^ Gliding's the only time a dragon ever looks close to natural in the air, I don't think that animation really needs changing. It's mostly the flapping and the stiffness while manovering that irks me. D:

[Skihlairk]

I'm trying to watch the animation, but that is by far the ugliest looking 'dragon' I have ever seen. Looks like it has horse hooves.. like they copied a model and forgot to change the feet.

I agree its an ugly dragon but your a little off subject. Try focusing on -only- the animation.

By that video though, it looks like it covers more ground than we do. There's also nothing in there that shows how it behaves when ascending. It would look even more unnatural if it kept the same 'glide' animation when ascending.

I dont think she means that we should glide when ascending, thats just silly :/ She's taking about the general movement (animation) of the dragon. If you've ever watched a large bird fly that is how they'd do it. Even the flapping is dead on right :3

I like our animation. I like the fact that the head moves and the tail moves even while gliding. The base speed of the animation could be slowed down a lot though.

I like the animation too but after watching a few other dragon game animations its really hit me just how wrong our animation looks :/ I mean dont get me wrong, much praise to the animaters and such, its stunning, but visualy looks wrong. Especialy if you know what a bird or bat looks like during flight and how its body works.

I think that re-vamping the flight animation AT SOME POINT IN THE FAR FUTURE would be brilliant! It would really add more to actualy being able to fly :3 A more realistic, fluid and even 'beautiful' animation would just -make- dragon flight x3
Our current animation looks too forced :/ it looks like running in the air, not like natural flying at all.
I think the main parts that look wrong are:
The movement of the neck/head/mouth - Its very jerky and opening and closing their mouths while flying is not really nessasary.
The movement of the body proppeling itself through the air - Again it looks very jerky and way way forced. Its like their bopping their way through the air instead of cutting.
The wings - They flap so much and too fast, they dont have the right look to work their wings like that :/ By all means (technical and natural) they would/should glide over flap.

I think the main pro's of the flying animation are:
The leg position - They are perfect and neat :3 I adore the way they hold their legs, its just so 'right' and realistic. I've seen many dragons carrying their legs as if their hanging which to me is just plain stupidity on the animators/artists/ who ever the hell decided to have them like that's behalf.
The body position - Is also just so 'right', its stream lined and well done :3
The banking/turning - Again is just so nice and well done, although the animation is broken.

Actually one of the things I would love to see fixed in a sort term time would be the banking/turning animation, its just got a broken loop is all :3 (I know nothing about computers/animation on computer or the like but looking at it from that point of view thats all I can see thats wrong with the loop, its broken xD)

So yes :3
(Please excuse my spelling, I tried to spell check because I'm horrid at typing my own language but it wants me to download something, I can't be bothered to sooooo!)

[Mensar]

I can't see them changing flying animations unless something to do with the dynamics of flight changes.

If you're like me and don't want to deal with looking at the rear end of a dragon while they're flying (knowing the further back you zoom the less you can see even with environment turned off) then just turn on first person mode. Makes for a much better flying experience anyway.. you can click on everything below you and you don't have to worry about your selection box being in the way, etc. And.. getting around lairs? First person all the way.. sooo easy getting up spirals.

But if you think the flying animation is broken, consider that flying itself is broken and has been since I can remember.... Anytime you can hug the ground with your camera angle straight over yourself (giving yourself the max bonus for flying speed) and get where you're going (presuming there aren't mountains or chasms in the way) faster than actually lifting off.. well, kind of takes away from the point of actually "flying" anywhere.

So first person works out pretty well.

[Wirevix]

Many of us, Mensar, dislike first-person and/or are disoriented by it, so throwing that as a workaround at every issue raised is not really very helpful. Also I like to watch my dragon, I play a dragon because I love dragons.

There is a thread in Player Customizations that informs how to slow down the flapping animation, which gets rid of the hummingbird effect. The animation could still use more fluidness, but it's better than what you get before customizing it.

And yes, I'd agree that, were time and effort no issue, a change to the flying animation would be quite welcome.

What bothers me especially is the animation for hovering or going up or down. With the way the dragon's wings flap, the dragon should just be going straight backwards the entire time. Its body really ought to curve over more so that its wings can still flap up and down while hovering.

This image shows what I would imagine a more proper position for a dragon to hover--upper body curved over, tail and hindquarters hanging down. This way the dragon doesn't look like it's going backwards.

[Galdethriel]

There is a thread in Player Customizations that informs how to slow down the flapping animation, which gets rid of the hummingbird effect.

Really? Thanks I'll look into that

With the way the dragon's wings flap, the dragon should just be going straight backwards the entire time. Its body really ought to curve over more so that its wings can still flap up and down while hovering.

Yeah, noticed that too. D: To get really in detail, the dragon would go backwards and then drop out of the air because there's nothing keeping it there, tumble down to the ground and possibly injure itself. X( I'm pretty sure the hovering animation is just the normal flying forwards animation propped up with a different head position. :/

This image shows what I would imagine a more proper position for a dragon to hover--upper body curved over, tail and hindquarters hanging down. This way the dragon doesn't look like it's going backwards.

That's from I of the Dragon, isn't it? ^^ That is a much nicer hovering position; though a bit slouched it is a lot more practical (and realistic!). You can see similar hovering positions in Drakan The Ancient's Gates and Dragon Rage etc too. Wings move downwards to keep the body up; possibly hovering would be the only time the dragon would have to put considerable effort in. :P

Times like this I wish I knew how to animate things. XD

[CallakDW]

This, I agree, is simply one of the many fluff and visual mondifications they could possibly make to make the game a lot more visually attractive, which I might point out is more likely to keep a new player in the game once they demo it. However I don't think fluff and visuals are at the top of their list like usual. I still have graphics flaws several years old that I'm told they are only now starting to work on. Still waiting though.

[Wirevix]

Yes, that image is from I of the Dragon. The game is unfortunately terrible and mostly unplayable for any length of time, but the dragon itself was well-animated and quite pretty to look at.

[Vaz]

I agree that dragon flight ought to be improved at some point. As a lifelong adorer of dragons, their flight here struck me as quite underwhelming.

There are no apparent physics in it. As has been stated more verbosely, it amounts to running with a Z axis and some special animations.

A problem with gliding, at least on my computer, is that there is a back-and-forth quivering effect, almost a minor rubberbanding. This is much less visible while flapping, so no matter what the flapping looks like, I prefer not to glide much. I assume this has something to do with graphical lag and would be resolved by an engine overhaul, which is of course such a major project I dare not expect this issue to be resolved in the client and should instead look toward resolving it for my system with hardware upgrades.

[RuneDragoon]

I'd take it on as a personal project but I dont have the tools or even know what they are (doh).

I can say though and agree with an earlier post that the wing flap animation is nice; the istarian dragons dont have what I like to call "plastic wings" (they bend, not fold, and are very rigid).

By that I mean the wings fold for the up beat and then extend for the down, rather than oddly bend up and down. (For a great example, look at the birds in Zelda: Twilight princess. It makes me sad looking at the rampant plastic wings everywhere.)

... thus I shout out to the gifted individual who went above and beyond for originally animating the dragon, I salute thee for a lack of plastic wings.

[Malaquion]

Really? Thanks I'll look into that



Yeah, noticed that too. D: To get really in detail, the dragon would go backwards and then drop out of the air because there's nothing keeping it there, tumble down to the ground and possibly injure itself. X( I'm pretty sure the hovering animation is just the normal flying forwards animation propped up with a different head position. :/



That's from I of the Dragon, isn't it? ^^ That is a much nicer hovering position; though a bit slouched it is a lot more practical (and realistic!). You can see similar hovering positions in Drakan The Ancient's Gates and Dragon Rage etc too. Wings move downwards to keep the body up; possibly hovering would be the only time the dragon would have to put considerable effort in. :P

Times like this I wish I knew how to animate things. XD

I really like how the dragon banks in Dragon Rage. It just seems more...I dunno, natural somehow, than HZ dragons banking.

[Solitaire]

I will have to admit that creating new animations to replace ones currently in the game is pretty far down on the list of things to do. I do agree with a lot of the comments in this thread that some of the animations for flight could be a lot better, but there are other things that are much higher in priority that will have a bigger impact on the game overall. For everyone. When we do touch on animations in the future, hopefully sooner rather than later, I would rather devote the time to "finishing" the animations that are missing. How about a unique animation for Gold Rage, Silver Strike and Ravage instead? New emotes and other animations for the bipeds too.

I am not a master at animation, it has been something that I've been long interested in but have not had the time to work with to develop a good skill set. However, I do know enough to know that animating the model for a better dragon flight motion is not going to be easy. I've looked at the skeleton and the animation controls for dragons early on and they are pretty minimal. I'm not sure if new controls that would automate much of the work could be added to the model without causing problems with all of the existing animations. There are some good animations that I would hate screwing up. That sexy tail sway when walking, for instance.

I will not say that new flight animations are not going to happen. But don't count on it any time soon. Unless you happen to be a skilled animator in Maya that would like to donate a portion of your time to a good cause....

[Zexoin]

what about existing animations ? like the /sitdown and /standup emotes that have been added to the emote pack recently ? Could you add those in game so when the dragon sits it looks more natural ?

[Galdethriel]

what about existing animations ? like the /sitdown and /standup emotes that have been added to the emote pack recently ? Could you add those in game so when the dragon sits it looks more natural ?

That'd be great if it was put in game. ^^

I would rather devote the time to "finishing" the animations that are missing. How about a unique animation for Gold Rage, Silver Strike and Ravage instead? New emotes and other animations for the bipeds too.

Shouldn't flying take priority over smaller things like this? :/ I don't want to sound rude, but flying is a major attraction to dragons, and dragons are a major attraction to Istaria. :/

[Shian]

Shouldn't flying take priority over smaller things like this? :/ I don't want to sound rude, but flying is a major attraction to dragons, and dragons are a major attraction to Istaria. :/

Except that we -can- fly. It may not look perfect yet, but it's there. And there's also the possibility of breaking it to look even worse. The wisp essence bug comes to mind.

There's things we can't do though.
Eat.
Stand up, sit down properly.
Most, if not all of our emotes that are just re-used battle skins (which seems really cheap to me but better than nothing) I'd rather see those unique.
Nothing like having greet, swat and gold rage be all the same animation.

I'd like to be able to have an emote where I put my head down while sitting- to sleep or try to listen to a hatchie or biped better.
A real Ravage or GR animation would be nice too.

[Solitaire]

what about existing animations ? like the /sitdown and /standup emotes that have been added to the emote pack recently ? Could you add those in game so when the dragon sits it looks more natural ?

That would be on the tech side of the system. I never really understood why the animations were not used, myself.

Shouldn't flying take priority over smaller things like this? :/ I don't want to sound rude, but flying is a major attraction to dragons, and dragons are a major attraction to Istaria.

Not rude at all, you would like to see an improvement. As would all of us on the development team. If we had a dozen artists working on the project, one of them would definitely be assigned to revamping animations. But as been said before, we are a small team working on this game and we have to prioritize. Are the flying animations broken? No, they are not. Could they be better visually? Absolutely. Where does than rank among issues that affect everyone? Unfortunately, fairly low. I know that is not the answer you would like to hear. But it will have to do for now.

[Mensar]

Many of us, Mensar, dislike first-person and/or are disoriented by it, so throwing that as a workaround at every issue raised is not really very helpful.

I'm trying!

Definitely not a solution, just a fix for now. First person does have some handy applications like:

Gathering (especially with the named poop mod, you can see further what the names of the various resources are and when they're depleted)

Crafting (can click through the ceiling much easier in first person without having your character model in the way to get to your silos)

Flying (gives me the true feeling of "flying" and allows you to see further, click whatever you want below you as you fly by and allows you to target much more accurately distant locations you want to get to by centering them on the screen instead of having to adjust for flight angle)

Fighting.... (not so much WHILE you're fighting, but allows MUCH easier corpse looting when combined with /setscale.. almost a requirement to loot blights before they start to disappear)

Navigating lairs or any building with an open staircase (going up and down open staircases is a breeze and MUCH faster being able to see where you're going), interacting with bipeds in buildings, etc etc etc.

I'm all about fluff.. truly. But function comes first to me. Sorry if my suggestions aren't what you want to hear... please don't fire me!

We have a great set of devs working on the game (brownie points +1) so I'm sure everything we suggest is weighed and considered based on manpower/time available. I just don't see little tweaks being very high on a list that includes game mechanic flaws, balance issues, and things that affect the game actually being viable to new players.

So.. just trying to help out with some player-discovered workarounds that aren't too painful in the interim

Of course, every time you use one of my Mensar's wonderful workaround jars of .. wonder. I get $5,000.00 in royalties.. yes, I'll take a check.

Just my two cents.. well.. let's see.. more like $14.31..

[Galdethriel]

I'm all about fluff.. truly. But function comes first to me. Sorry if my suggestions aren't what you want to hear... please don't fire me!

XD

I'm a little icky on first-person view too (just because the bobbing seems quite awkward) but you're right, it does have it's practical uses.

As has already been said, it probably won't be very high on the priority list, but I'm still hoping eventually once the game gets back on it's feet it might be a possibility.

I'd be willing to help doing whatever if I could just learn how to use Maya.
(Anyone know where to find any good tutorials? )

*pointless post*