A question for Devs GN and AE regarding Crafting vs. Adventuring

[Jaelle_earth]

I have a question which burns in me since i joined Horizons.

To begin with: I am one of the rare species named "Pure Crafter", means i dont like Adventuring at all just sometimes to join my guild and have some fun. When I joined Horizons i did that because it promised me that i could choose between being a crafter, an adventurer and even both. What i didn't expect was that you in fact could choose to be solely an adventurer and if you chose to be a crafter youHAD TO / MUSTalsolevel an adventurerschool or even two or three, 'cause every single Resource spot from Tier 2 up is camped by highlevel monsters who rip the crafter appart first due to him being a non-adventurer with no fightskills at all, second due to his weak crafterarmor which is not even more then a papersuit. Running is often no possible option either because most of this mobs can root or stun.So at tier 3 spots the monsters are lvl 40 to 60, tier 4 lvl 60-80 and so on, even as a level100 crafter without adventureschools leveled a lvl 40 monster could rip you apart in notime. Not even alone that, to be able to get techs and formulas i have to kill monsters to get tokens and such to buy the needed things to satisfy my customers.

So my question is: Why for heavens sake do i HAVE TO level adventurer if my only interest apart from some funevents is crafting and supplying good and excellent tools weapons or whatever to the players? i can't play 24/7 to have enough time to level to level 100 adventurer just to be able to level to lvl 100 crafter of whatever field. As most of the people playing horizons that are mature enough to know what i mean i work up to 50 hours a week in my job without that i could not even think of playing horizons anyway due to the lack of money. When i now play horizons i want to do what ever pleases me most and not to be coerced into leveling adventurer when i could bring my time to a better use with what i like most: crafting. I can live with the respawn time on resources which is pretty slow and often a field is completely gathered empty and i have to wait until some of it respawns. I can live with the fact i have to have for any school i start a new set of crafted and teched craftergear (cargo) cause the skills with the new school dont allow to use the gear used for the mainschool. I can live with craftleveling beingharder then adventure-leveling, all of that because i LIKE CRAFTING its my most favorite and most loved part in horizons you people did a really wonderfull job with this craft-engine never seen a better way of manufacturing several different utilities armors and other stuff, but to be coerced into leveling adventure schools (Yes, schoolS, because even one adventureschool is not enough to survive a mob at t5 res places) is what kills me in horizons the most.

You once said you wanted to make a game to fit or even exceed the expectations of you customers, up to this point horizons is all this but for me and many of the other "Pure Crafter's" out there, the lack of consideration of the ingameplay for us MINORITIES is shameful. You should have known that with the best craft-engine ever in your game that you will get many customers who especially want to do just this.

'nough ranted.

I have some propositions to get rid of this problem maybe you can think of an own way too.
I beg you Devs and decision-makers please read these and think them over dont trash it right away. The community of crafters would be very thankful if you did and came to a conclusion that satisfies both sides the gamedevelopers and the players.

First and easiest way to get rid of this problem: Remove the Agressive Monsters from all the resourcefields. If i want to adventure i go on in my wargear and go out to find the mobs solo or in group with my friends i dont need em in resourcefields. For those mobs who people can loot resources from is a nice thing for crafters who like some action and want to do adventure and craftleveling at the same time, but move them out of the normal resourcefields so crafters who want to just be in unison with nature and just want to craft, have their freedom to do just that.

Second way i thought of was a characterflag the crafter can set, which makes him invisible to agressive mobs, or just agressive mobs just won't attack them. As said before for mobs that can be looted for resources its equal to me because i myself wont hunt them at all but others will. Forethought that nobody can use this flag to escape out of a fight or missuse it in any other way you can set a timer so the flag can, whichcan only be activated only if the character hasn't been in a fight for at least 30 minutes. thats enough to make sure it will not be misused in a fight and short enough that someone can wait out the timer if he got hit in a resourcefield. for the durability of the flag just let it be on until the crafter actively disables it. no timer for the automatic disengagement of the flag that just would bring up the crafters who suddenly get attacked whilst gathering.

Thats what i've thought of till now, maybe it helps to understand what the crafter community is thinking. No Discussion Point is that craft-leveling is harder then adventuring. It just is but its also what makes it interesting even without being killed by agressive mobs in duty to serve our fellow players the weapons utils armor spells and whatever they need.

I personally tend to the first possibility but i dont know if this is doable for the developers but i think it would be easier then the second option.

Thank you for your time and your openmindedness for this thread, i invite all forumusers to post their opinions in here, but please keep it peacefully in here, i dont want to invite for whining but for an open discussion, and for all i woulds like Luca and the Devs and whoever has a thing to say in this game to join in and think about it i would like to have an official statement here if possible.

Thank you and may you have a pleasant day.

[Aziroth]

Could ask or even hire adventurers to guard you. Afterall crafters and adventurers don't exactly seek each other's help all to often. Its one way around it. Perhaps even work out a bargain of weapons/armor/etc in exchange for protection.

[Magfuddle]

"hear hear"

Hz did seem to cater reasonably well pre-merger for crafting .. post merger resources are more often severely and intensively guarded.

Pre-merger there were finishing machines in the field ... post-mergerwere completely removed (except for the fact that essence channelers serve as both)and are only being replaced as player plots build them -the finishing machines are not certainly not in the field on the starter islands. The original rationale was a little blurred as far as I am concerned ...

1) more role for miners and gatherers? I bet this has not happened.
2) the player plots will supply finishing machines in the field .... where the player plots are on the starter islands pray tell ?!!!

Pre-merger I could craft by avoiding conflict and then collecting resources in a relatively safe place (that was occassionally invaded by a roving mob, but not permanently guarded) - post merger I had to raise my adventure levels by 15 levels before I could survive collecting my favoured T2 resources.

I suspect that with the new "islands" being added there will be more resources unguarded to cater for the crafters ... I hope this is the case.

Could ask or even hire adventurers to guard you. Afterall crafters and adventurers don't exactly seek each other's help all to often. Its one way around it. Perhaps even work out a bargain of weapons/armor/etc in exchange for protection.

good in principle but it clearly preclude solo crafting - solo adventuring is possible, solo crafting is not.

[Dalthbar]

My crafting level usually puts me in situations where my adventuring level does not help a bit. Even with 1400 health, a cobalt or mithril golem can strike me down in one or two blows (they love to lead with multistrikes). Given that, I could easily be a level 1 warrior and it'd have the same effect as being a level 65 spearman. If I get hit, I die. (my point: my adventuring level is irrelevant for T4+)

Does this bother me? No. Why? Because everything has an associated risk. And I have choices to mitigate that risk if I wish to take them. If I choose not to, I understand that my life will be harder, but that's the consequences of the choice.

With that in mind, if you want to be a "pure crafter", realize that that means that anything that requires you to take some damage puts you at a disadvantage to the person that has 100 levels in an adventuring class. This is their benefit because of their time investment. You can do the same thing if you want.

You also don't have to craft in cargo armor... that's another choice.

My whole point is that there are many paths one can choose. Some will be more difficult than others, but may not be what you're looking for or as rewarding as a more difficult one. ust realize that just because something is "hard to do" doesn't mean that it's impossible. Just that it'll require more effort and more risk than another path.

[Jaelle_earth]

* "With that in mind, if you want to be a "pure crafter", realize that that means that anything that requires you to take some damage puts you at a disadvantage to the person that has 100 levels in an adventuring class. This is their benefit because of their time investment. You can do the same thing if you want." *

That is exactly is the point i have no choice i am coerced to adventuring to be able to craft the resources i need, and i DONT want to Adventure i want to concentrate on crafting to be able to supply the adventurers with all the stuff they need. I dont like adventuring at all if i want to adventure i go with my friends and have some fun but why do adventurers have the possibvility to just du what they like most and why do crafters not?

Yes i could hire people guarding me if you name me someone who is able and willing to stand 12-14 hours on some days behind me and watch my back, if i have enough money for that with that insane prices for techs and formulasi normally dont have the money for it if i ask someone to guard me some of my guildies do it for nil but only for a while because they think its pretty boring. If i want a hired swordsman i have to pay my ****** off for 14 hours straight crafting i cant pay so much money.

All i want is to be able to craft (do the thing i love most) on my own, (like the adventurers can, they just take the right mob not to high in level and its done)without the risk of being killed once and again leaving me with a death penalty that sometimes even makes me unable to craft at all.

no offense meant but thats what i think ;)

[Dalthbar]

You can do that - you just have to pay a lot of attention to what you're doing after you get into higher tiers. Both crafting and adventuring has risk involved. It'd be silly for there *not* to have an associated risk to crafting.

When I'm mining nickel, I bring a weapon because I can kill the golems in cargo armor. When I mine cobalt or mithril, I don't bother because I flee when I see a golem nearby. So I wander a bit until I find a safer node and mine away. That means that when I mine cobalt and mithril I'm effectively a "100% pure crafter" because adventuring is not close to a consideration and the MOBs can single-hit kill me (mith golems moreso than cobalt).

My point is that you can be a pure crafter - it just gets dangerous. If your complain is really "I don't like it being dangerous" then that's one thing. But I feel that when a person says "you can't be a pure crafter" that they're 100% wrong.

[Jaelle_earth]

what i mean when i say i cant be a 100% crafter is that i DONT WANT to be an adventurer but without being an adventurer its even lethal for me to get into tier 2 resourcefields ^^ it would be okay if there was a roving predator that wanders through so you have to be on attention but not up to 30 mobs camping a resourcefield.

[Dalthbar]

I gather almost daily in T4 and T5 resource fields. I *RARELY* die. It does happen, but it's at MOST once a week (and usually not that frequent).

I only really gather ore, so I can't comment about other resources, but it's more than possible to gather and not die daily.

[Jaraiden]

I think it is called ninja crafting.

Levels 1 to about 30 you stay on the starter islands. Unfortunately, AE opted to make it hard on new players by removing finishing machines near those resources. Fungus would be nice, along withdistant patches of tier 1 gems with gemcutter/jeweler's table and Dim wisps and Essence Channeler.

Barring that, it gets more challenging (periods of waiting amid frustration = AE's view of fun). There are unguarded resources (they are likely further from the resource crafting machines). Hopefully some one has a listing. The waiting part comes in when you see adventurers out doing Trophy Hunter or Adv. school tasks - let them clear the golems and treants.

On a side note, I think it rather odd seeing so many unguarded tier II/III/IV (some) resources. Likely, though, I just don't know where thespots of tier I resources around Kion/Sslanis and the other towns (Tazoon crater and an island with many tier I resources with machines).

[Phillip]

When I joined Horizons i did that because it promised me that i could choose between being a crafter, an adventurer and even both.

they also mentioned that crafters will need to rely on adventurers, and vice versa.

do adventurers need to rely on crafters? i think you know the answer to this one.

it's time crafters rely on adventurers, too.

[Magfuddle]

crafters rely on adventurers for an acceptable income for their crafted items - dont tell me you are advocating that crafters should be forced to hire adventurers as bodyguards everytime they need to gather T2+ resources ?


.. oh yeah, you are - you are rigidly opposing a players ability to play as a solo crafter ... just because all your friends have left Hz Phillip doesnt mean you have to ... nah lets drop it ...

Phillip I think you have made your point clearly, and frequently.

[Dalthbar]

crafters rely on adventurers for an acceptable income for their crafted items - dont tell me you are advocating that crafters should be forced to hire adventurers as bodyguards everytime they need to gather T2+ resources ?

I certainly have never asked for an escort when gathering mithril or cobalt - something which can certainly be lethal. So I don't see why he'd be advocating that since it's simply not necessary.

[Phillip]

you see Dalthbar there? yeah he's higher in crafting. he crafts alot. read what he wrote.

"you are rigidly opposing a players ability to play as a solo crafter"

no. i think if a pure adventurer is made to NEED a crafter to get stuff or else he'll have nada, then maybe it's alright for a crafter to need him, too.

the other day a crafter asked me to come a wipe out an area of mobs so he can mine. i did it. he thanked me, it's all good.

and you know what? just a month ago, he made my sword.

[Magfuddle]

Dalthbar thanks, you just made my point - tell me how often you would survive alone if you had NO adventure levels ? ... or even if you would have attained your crafting level without the adv levels ?

[Senkeleron Fell]

Your initial statement that every single resource spot is camped by monsters is just wrong.

I have found unguarded fields of every resource from Tier I to Tier IV, you just have to look.
Tier V is probably the same but I don't need it yet so I can confirm that fact.

[Ikfel]

it's time crafters rely on adventurers, too.

Crafters have always relied on adventurers to supply dropped techs and components. But now they are being forced into adventuring which acts to reduce their reliance on adventurers.

Let me repeat that: Increased mob presence in the field reduces crafters need for adventurers because they are forced to become adventurers themselves.

There is no way that it would work for every crafter to hire an adventurer to stand beside them at all times while they are gathering in order to level. Too much guarding is required by too many crafters.

I see it suggested that a crafter can get by in the fields without a guard and without adventuring levels. True, it's difficult, but possible. You have to live the life of a skulking phantom, flitting from node to node, dodging the mobs and always keeping a fearful eye out for the ever present danger. I did that for quite some time in the marble fields. Working areas that passing adventurers had recently cleared, always on the lookout for a temporarily unguarded field. I felt like a camp follower, or some sort of scavenger. I eventually tired of that, the tension was too much for me, I was collecting more death points than many adventurers I knew.

I felt like I was giving up when I finally decided I had to raise my adventuring. I was abandoning my principles and acquiescing to pressure to become an adventurer. I spent a couple weeks raising me paladin level by about 30 levels to where I could survive a Marble Golem and even kill it.

Recently, I notice that more fields with no mobs and good resources are appearing. Notably a field of obsidian south of Dralk makes working that resource incredibly easier. But it's too late for me, I'm already a crafter/adventurer. My solace is that my Adventure Rating is only a bit more than half my Craft Rating (and I can still kill Mithril and Marble Golems).

[imported_Ssilmath]

For a very long time, I was a pure crafter...early adventuring had gotten my paladin skills to about 60, and then I stopped...For several months I concentrated solely on leveling up armorer, dodging mobs that I could not hope to kill and with Sprint and Regen as my two most used abilities...

In the new world, mithril rapidly raised my crafting skills, and my death points...The golems were amazingly hard hitting and beat me around the face and neck without a second thought...I could go down the road to pure crafter, but it wasn't fun anymore...

And so I have spent the last several days bringing my skills up while also searching for expert drops...Once I return to crafting again, I will not feel that I am an adventurer/crafter...I will be a crafter that decided to find a way to overcome the dangers of working his trade by learning a way to fight back...

I know a lot of you don't like adventuring, but if you grit your teeth, maybe even group with other like minded crafters and crank out a few levels, life will be much easier...

Just my view on the issue

[Gilresk]

Actually you can stay pretty safe crafting up until tier III if you move over to Mahagra for tiers II and III. There are currently very few mobs there near the resources, although some of the fields are smaller, in particular the gold/nickel and iron/silver fields, but they still exist golem free. There is an only gold field somewhere nearby that does have golems though, and some of the granite fields have golems but not all of them. It's actually rather strange, because pre-merge Mahagra was one of the most dangerous places to gather resources. I'm not sure why the change, but I can't exactly complain. As far as I know though it is safe to gather cotton (maybe kenaf too, not sure), slate, granite, iron, nickel, silver, gold, elm, oak, and glowing wisps (I think it's glowing, but I can't be certain). Oh there is also some clay, I think Earthenware, and also plenty of safe bass about.

I'm not sure but there may also be a safe place for higher tiers, it just might be hard to find.

[Rainbow]

I appreciate that this is a game for fun away from real life, however, it also has a role play feel and is meant to be for interaction with others who may have made different choices so let's just pretend we are really in the world of Istaria for a second.

Parts of Istaria are filled with nasty monsters who fancy a quick snack or a battle with a gifted person, so why would a pure crafter be wandering the wilds in the first place if he was not able to take care of himself?

My craft level is just two levels above my adventuring class and if I wish to keep gathering resources myself that is roughly how I will keep it. I know that I have a fair and resonable chance to fight monsters that may be guarding what I am looking to gather/mine etc. My price for this independence is that I have levelled both crafting and adventuring a lot slower than many others,choosing to share my "play time" between the two.

If I had chosen to play a pure crafter who could not swing a sword. fire an arrow or cast a magic spell, I would not have been expecting to run riot through fields of ore etc. collecting to my hearts desire without any risk.... not if we were truly in Istaria. I would expect to buy resources within the safe confines of a city from somebody who could fight the bad guys and who returned to town to sell his wares and to rest up before the next battle.

It was a shock to the system initially, for sure, but if you look at it from a role playing point of view it was not an unrealistic change in fairness, and is easily overcome providing you areprepared to be a little flexible in your approach to the game.

In history the monarchs did not send half a dozen farmers and a carpenter to discover new lands and exotic things, not without a strong guard for protection anyway.


Rainbow

[Anikitos]

No sane adv will ever guard a crafter 10 hours straight.

Besides, no crafter could afford it.

I give you an example that actually happened to me.
A crafter asked me to guard him at Mithril Field, he just picked my name from a player search. A perfect stranger, go figure.

I replied with a "lol".
But he was insisting and i could not resist the urge to ask him, how much he is paying.
He said a sum of 10 silver, aint kidding.
I simply said...10 gold then we can talk, he got upset. :)

Its simple really, bodyguard service might be fun for 1 hour max.
After that, it aint happening and it aint realistic and you can pretty much be sure that no adv will do that for a stranger. Guildies might do it for a limited ammount of time but thats it.

In regards to techs, formulas and crafters getting them themselfes.
If you are a crafter as main and only lvling the adv part to survive for example Mithril, there is no way you can provide yourself with the techs you need.

Let me repeat, no way. If you think otherwhise you are having halucinations.

You will need to kill an obscene ammount of higher lvl mobs to get the CORRECT formula you want for yourself. Obscene ammount.
Pure crafters, dont have the stamina to endure killing obscene ammounts of high lvl mobs...

By the time you do that, you aint a crafter anymore...you are adv! :)

Welcome Brethren!