Skill From Crafting Machines...

[Guaran]

There will never be a lairshaping bonus on a ped machine sadly, but as us and them both use smelting and stoneworking... we will see bonuses unless the powers that be deem this unacceptable and remove our ability to use the more prevalent ped built machines.

If that ever happened I would be quite pissed.

My biped uses the dragon stoneworking (for making bricks) since that puts him at 3:1 on them. There's no masonry skill there tho, hence still a need for a biped stoneworking hut.

The skills from crafting machines are all working as intended. The only thing that might not fit is scaleforge cannot craft armor or weapons for bipeds. If the design is sufficiently different then this probably makes sense.

The skills that get no bonus period were done that way on purpose: Example some of the formulas for RoP require transmuting skill but the item is crafted at a stoneworking pedestal. There's no possible way to get a shop bonus. This was intentional.

The ONLY change I can see advocating is taking away an Anvil's ability to make scales, OR adding anvils function to a scaleforge (minus any skill bonus obviously). And really this would be a waste of dev's time.

/move along

[Aaelefein]

What I was saying is that they all should get a boost if they can be made on that machine. Period.

Well to a degree, I agree with Mensar...so let me explain (I'll try to be brief, but it never works out):

First, if one looks at your crafting window, there is a clickable icon in the "Machine" pane that allows you to select the required machine. Most of the time, there is only choice, but as others have pointed out, Dragon's can use Anvils in place of Scaleforges and for now, that is the only exception to the usage of machines I can think of. Everything else is quite specific...smelters for smelting, essence channelers for making orbs, etc.

A Scaleforge is designed for making scales, it is also the first tool that appears in the crafting window...hence it makes since that it gets the skill bonus where the anvil does not...it is a less effecient tool that was not specifically designed for making scales.

This is not the case for many other items...bricks still need a stone cutter, Spellshards a Stoneworking Pedestal, Cut Gems a Gem Working Bench...same tool, same job...no difference between biped and dragon...hence they imo, should get the skill bonus whether at a biped shop or dragon shop.

Now this thread seems to have already turned into a Dragon vs Biped issue...so lets expand on that and I think that is where the OP and others have an issue...

As far as I can recall, everything a Biped is capable of making, the required machine always gives a bonus if it is a player built shop. Whether it's making tinkering parts, confectioner items, or construction parts...and everything in between.

This is not the case for Dragons...

Disks...
- For the end product, the machine is Scaleforge...and we get the skill bonus.
- For the interim parts:
-- Energized Azulyte: Ability-Essence Shaping; Machine-Crystal Shaper...no skill bonus, even on dragon machine
-- Engravings: Ability-Smelting; Machine-Smelter...get skill bonus, biped and dragon machines
-- Imbued Bricks: Ability-Stoneworking; Machine-Stoneworking Pedestal...NO Skill Bonus, even on dragon machine
-- Laminates: Ability-Smelting; Machine-Smelter...get Skill Bonus, biped and dragon machines

Unlike the biped Tinkerer, Dragons using the required machine to make key components, do NOT get the skill bonus on each item.

Imbued Bars and Lodestones...
Imbued Bar, a combination of essence orbs and metal bars, creating an end-product for use in lair construction. Requires Lairshaping Ability and a Smelter

Lodestone, a combinatino of stone slabs and metal bars, creating a component for use in lair construction. Requires Smelting Ability and a Smelter.

Both require the use of a smelter, and when the item creation window is opened, it doesn't specify whether it is biped or dragon smelter. At a biped shop, Imbued Bar does NOT get a skill Bonus, but the Lodestone does.

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There are a couple other examples, but I think this is enough to get the point across...

First, what I am seeing from the above examples, when the ability required differs from the machine required, the skill bonus is not given...exception being lairshaping, and only when using a dragon machine.

It is my opinion, that when a specified machine is listed for use to create an item, the bonus should be given. As already stated above, the sole exception being on specialized machines...Scaleforge vs Anvil, as well as the Crystalshaper...though the latter is moot as bipeds can not even harvest crystals.

A Smelter is a smelter, the same goes for practically every other machine out there except for the aforementioned two machines. It does not make sense or even seem equitable, that the skill bonus is not given at a player built shop, regardless if it is of biped or dragon origin.

Now I am sure part of the problem is the use of 'key word' identifiers in the coding and another part "but it was intended that way". In the first instnace, I would thing a couple extra tags here and there would be able to fix that. In the latter...Why was it intended? Help make sense of it, maybe make it more palatable.

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On a side note, I would like to see Crystalshapers placed in the field and or towns...sure would be nice to collect crystals (usually in the same location as gems) and process them in the same place (like is the case for most gems). Just a wish...

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Okay...so not very brief...

[Mensar]

Wow, that's not brief! Starting to make posts like me.

Well, I guess simplicity may not be as popular as logic. And Although I'm a staunch supporter of logic.. it's just too complicated to try to say.. this has a bonus, but this only has a bonus when these other factors are true. Then this other thing has a bonus only on these machines when it's a full moon and you sacrifice a gruok and purify the blood... etc. Ok that last part was a stretch, but you get the point.

TO be honest, I always just used a machine that worked. I was always under the assumption that.. if I could craft on it, and it's supposed to give a bonus.. then I'm getting the bonus.

As far as biped using dragon scale forges.. I can see why that isn't the case because of how the scaleforge looks. But that can always be changed?

If enough people wanted to share their lairs with biped crafters that is.

[Shian]

Well, it looks like something could stand to be re-assesed 'cause something isn't making sense.... why do we not get tinkering bonuses using our own machines?

I can see why we can only get lairshaping bonuses at a dragon smelter(machine in general) and not a biped smelter. For one, they're just too darn small for something like an Imbar. Lairshaping components are extremely big and heavy. Biped equipment just isn't designed for it just as scalemaking is.

The way I figure, if bipeds are brave enough to enter a dragon lair, let them have the bonus on resources etc.

I'd actually like to see crafting opened up on our scaleforges for a biped (but not the bonus as is with us and scales)

[Guaran]

Well, I guess simplicity may not be as popular as logic. And Although I'm a staunch supporter of logic.. it's just too complicated to try to say.. this has a bonus, but this only has a bonus when these other factors are true. Then this other thing has a bonus only on these machines when it's a full moon and you sacrifice a gruok and purify the blood... etc. Ok that last part was a stretch, but you get the point.

It's really not that complicated....

There's nothing wrong with bonuses, except that IMHO the machines in the field that players built, should give a bonus. Many of the machines out there were in fact built by players.

[Mensar]

Well, it looks like something could stand to be re-assesed 'cause something isn't making sense.... why do we not get tinkering bonuses using our own machines?

I can see why we can only get lairshaping bonuses at a dragon smelter(machine in general) and not a biped smelter. For one, they're just too darn small for something like an Imbar. Lairshaping components are extremely big and heavy. Biped equipment just isn't designed for it just as scalemaking is.

The way I figure, if bipeds are brave enough to enter a dragon lair, let them have the bonus on resources etc.

I'd actually like to see crafting opened up on our scaleforges for a biped (but not the bonus as is with us and scales)

I'd like to see that too.

[velveeta]

It's really not that complicated....

There's nothing wrong with bonuses, except that IMHO the machines in the field that players built, should give a bonus. Many of the machines out there were in fact built by players.

ooo yeap i love and second this idea!

[Mensar]

ooo yeap i love and second this idea!

Yea but wouldn't we have to rebuild them?

[velveeta]

well they don't call me the build queen of blight for nothing.....

[Favoran]

As far as biped machines and dragon machines go...

A smelter's a smelter. Why one would serve some purposes is beyond me. Do dragons have it at a different temperature, or something? Or maybe biped's have some nifty dohicky in their shop hanging on the wall that lets them craft certain things. I don't know. But why shouldn't they both provide skill? Why can't dragons get lairshaping from a biped shop?

Now, anvils and scaleforges... since this has been brought up a few times. Look at an anvil. Now go look at a scaleforge. Then tell me how the two are similar enough to be used the same. Yup, they aren't. While I think other machines should work both ways, I can understand why bipeds couldn't use a scaleforge as an anvil. There's nothing to hammer on. Dragons can use anvils, but with no skill bonus.

So, let's start opening up some skills on machines. Let dragons work their lairshaping on 'ped shops, let bipeds do their whatever on dragon machines, and let dragons tinker properly on their own creations. Problem solved.

[awdz]

A smelter's a smelter. Why one would serve some purposes is beyond me. Do dragons have it at a different temperature, or something? Or maybe biped's have some nifty dohicky in their shop hanging on the wall that lets them craft certain things. I don't know. But why shouldn't they both provide skill? Why can't dragons get lairshaping from a biped shop?

I always assumed it had to do with design for claws vs. hands, height, how you move while working. But I agree it'd be nice for everyone to get the same skill bonus at the various machines.

[Mensar]

Look at an anvil. Now go look at a scaleforge. Then tell me how the two are similar enough to be used the same. Yup, they aren't.

That can be easily fixed

[Favoran]

How, light the anvil on fire? At least dragons can use their breath as a substitute. But doing so is far less optimal than using a true scaleforge. Seems like a logical excuse anyways...

[Soraii]

I think he is suggesting replacing scaleforges with anvils in lairs.... But this is just me reading in between the lines, if you combine all aspects you might as well also put rooms in the lair for all ped crafts and structures on ped plots for the dragon crafts... Then at that point there would be no difference and would likely be no need to build machines in lairs anymore as it's easier to fly to the machine on a ped plot. BUT... we have drifted really off topic on this post

Topic is..... more of a bug report then a suggestion, the bug report that there is no bonus making energised azulyte and imbued bricks.

as for the OT stuff, I kind of like it as it is now, if it's a shared skill we can share machines, if it's a mutually exclusive skill we have to use our mutually exclusive machines... gives me a reason to put them in my lair afterall

Soraii