WT- was the US goverment thinking !

[Dragonboy]

I can understand that getting healthcare like this forced upon you all of a sudden can be annoying, but to be honest I think that countries who don’t have general healthcare systems in these times are like... Third world’ish.
I have heared a story from my parents who went on vacation to Austria about the benefit of having health care.
While on holliday my mother had an accident breaking her leg and needing surgery, due to her health insurance she got the surgery. Someone in the bed near her had a more terrible accident with a lot more serious injuries and they were kicked out of the hospital for not having insurance. Bot women (my mother is Dutch and the other woman was Italian) were foreigners in that country.

You can whine, you can scream, you can refuse to pay, but it won’t do you any good… Just relax and adapt.
This is called possitive progress and the cash to fund this possitive progress can easily be removed from the armed forces expenses. Just keep the army in the US for a year and you have the cash needed to pay for this. All this troop movement costs a lot more then what you complain about.

[Veruliyam]

Relax and take it?!?!

It's creep!!! The government is slowly taking over more and more of our lives in the interest of taking care of us because for far too long we have just relaxed and took it!!

The thing that most angers me is that the government has a long history (about the last 150 years) of a fiscal irresponsibility that would have caused a private industry to collapse into a pile of dust.

Look at your own house, your own finances. You cannot sustain yourself on spending more money than you earn, period.

Unless, like the government, you can just print more money. Yeah, that's a bad solution too. Simply, you are devaluing the existing dollars by putting more into circulation.

It is, quite simply put, absolutely insane and stupid.

An individual can't do it. A company can't do it. Why are we going to let the government do it?!?

[LOVWYRM]

I totally agree with everything you`ve said Rv!

No country can affort not to have such or similar health care system.
You cannot leave your co citizens dieing in the street, or children suffering
from deseases in their homes, and sleep well, thinking its not your part to care about.
By some means or other it will return to you, and you will have to pay.

And believe me: You sleep better, knowing that your neighbour/ co- worker/
the children in kindergarden of your child aso, have a good health insurance.
Think of swine flew- or simply ask your conscience.

[Steelclaw]

Regardless i still am paying on that and i don't mind. its equivalent exchange.

You can pay for your health care expenses... so screw the other people who can't. Gotta earn what you get, no handouts or help, right?

i have Like i said call me old fashion but i would rather work for what i got not have it forced fed to me

Do you drive on a freeway? Who paid for it? Did you pay a toll? No. You got it for "free". (Actually it was paid for with your tax dollars.)

Do you use the internet? Great, because it's infrastructure is partially supported by government funds. Did you pay the "full cost"? No.

Ever cross the street? Did you have to insert a coin to operate the crossing signal? No. You got it for "free".

Do you have money in a bank in the US? Do you worry about the bank going out of business and taking your money? Of course not. Your money is insured (unless you use a non-FDIC insured bank). Did you pay for that insurance? No. You got it for "free".

The "I want to pay for what I get, I don't need no handouts" rhetoric is starting to sound more like a poorly disguised way of saying "I want all of the benefits of living in a society without sharing any of the costs or responsibilities". Well, like it or not, you take advantage of "handouts" every day. It's time to grow up, realize that you are part of a society that bears a responsibility for the well-being of its members, and to shoulder part of that burden.

[Sigi]

Hear! Hear!
for Steelclaw and Lov

[Nisse]

i have Like i said call me old fashion but i would rather work for what i got not have it forced fed to me

What if you are like me, and can't work? This new bill is bring about changes that help disabled people like myself. I want to work, but I can't.

[Vaz]

Lightning Claw, all your lofty macho ideals about self-sufficiency and the Constitution are utterly worthless if a debilitating injury or chronic condition attacks you.

Picture this:
One day, in the middle of your life, you experience excruciating pain in your stomach or thereabouts. You go to the hospital and eventually they figure out that you have Crohn's Disease. For the foreseeable future you're going to have to return to the hospital every once in a while, staying for weeks or months at a time. These visits and whatever treatments you receive are very expensive. Your savings are rapidly drained away and you can't hold down a permanent job anymore.

Or this:
Toward the middle of your life you start to experience fatigue, full-body aching, etc. Gradually it gets worse and worse, until you can't stand or walk or run or lift or sit or even lay down for any significant length of time. You have to shift your posture constantly, and even then jobs involving manual labour or sitting at a desk for hours become impossible to perform. So what options for work does that leave you with? Almost none.
To make matters worse, doctors can't figure out what's wrong with you. Your only recourse is to obtain some kind of disability allowances, but you can't because the doctors don't understand and don't care. Eventually, if you're lucky, you find out that you have Fibromyalgia. You're doomed to this chronic condition for the rest of your life and, as the normal effects of aging team up with it to cause you even more trouble, everything spirals away from you.
You can't hold down a job no matter how much you want to.
Now what if you had asthma, irritable bowel syndrome, clinical depression, and one or two other very troublesome things on top of it?
YOU ARE SCREWED AND NONE OF YOUR CUTE LITTLE PRECONCEPTIONS CAN SAVE YOU. Welcome to a "life" of getting by on handouts from the government and your relatives.

Both of those scenarios are real, borrowed from people I know.

[Nisse]

Yes, Xoshara, I am like the second person you mentioned. I have Psoriasis, Fibromyalgia, and IBS. My life is a wreck, and I am grateful for disability payments (handouts, haha!) that I had to fight for, and for the recent developments in healthcare.

[awdz]

Given the strong political view folks are sharing, I think I'll share a form letter I came up with to make it easier for US folks to contact their legislators and let them know what's on their minds. Check whatever boxes apply. (Note - if you use this for entertainment, please give me credit as author - thanks!) By the way, names and addresses can be found at http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

Dear ¨ Senator ¨ Congressman,

I would like for you to ¨ support ¨ oppose legislation on __________________________________________________ ______________________.

I consider this to be
¨ vital for our economy
¨ a matter of national pride
¨ critical to national security
¨ the only decent thing to do
¨ divine will
¨ a nice gesture
¨ in my own best interests
¨ necessary for me to ever vote for you
¨ other __________________________________________________ ___________

My opinion has been heavily influenced by
¨ conservative news media (MSNBC, CNN, Fox)
¨ liberal news media (NPR, PBS, The Daily Show with Jon Stewart)
¨ internet headlines
¨ religious writings (Chapter:Verse ___________________ from
.........¨ Bible ¨ Tanakh ¨ Qu’ran ¨ Other __________________)
¨ an alert email forwarded to me by a friend or relative
¨ deep philosophical discussion over drinks
¨ other __________________________________________________ ___________

You can learn more about my views through
¨ my blog at ________________________
¨ facebook where I am known as ________________________
¨ websearch with keyword ________________
¨ my book titled _____________________
¨ FBI’s most wanted list
¨ other __________________________________________________ ___________

I ¨ am ¨ am not a member of your constituency, and I ¨ would ¨ would not like to hear back from you on this issue.

Finest regards,

_____________________________________

[Creme]

I would have preferred to see something concrete that would rein in the high cost of medical care, which nothing in this bill seems to actually address.

While I also do dislike things such as pre-existing condition clauses and life time maximums, I see this requirement as only causing insurance premiums to rise even higher.

Other countries can provide medical coverage for their citizens because they control the costs of care. That is not the case in this country. Our costs will continue to skyrocket until some measure of control is imposed which will keep medical costs down. Malpractice insurance is very costly and it's not only doctors that have to pay it. That is only 1 factor and I've heard that it is only a small part of the reason that medical care is so costly.

Moreover, has anyone actually SEEN who will get subsidised insurance coverage? I read that 10% of the uninsured will remain uncovered. Are these people that have no income and cannot afford to purchase their own insurance, even with most of it subsidized?

I heard on the radio today a story of someone that was happy that the bill got passed. This individual said 2 years ago, he had an income of 200k/year and now his income is 0, no unemployment because he was a self-employeed contractor. He said he was happy because now he'll be able to get insurance. I think he'll likely be in that 10% that will remain uncovered, because if he really has 0 income, then he won't be able to afford the cost of even subsidized insurance.

[Veruliyam]

Yes, we are so screwed.

We can't turn to our own family, or good friends, or our church for help and support.

The answer to all our problems is to immediately and without thinking to turn to Uncle Sam.. except he's becoming Big Brother...

*nods*

Yeah.

Perhaps I will just sit back. I mean, mandatory auto insurance worked out fine. Mandatory insurance with your mortgage turned out fine. Mandatory health insurance should be peachy too. Oh, and if you don't pay for insurance, they'll force you to pay a fine. No option, no choice, pay, pay, pay.

[lightning claw]

You can pay for your health care expenses... so screw the other people who can't. Gotta earn what you get, no handouts or help, right?



Do you drive on a freeway? Who paid for it? Did you pay a toll? No. You got it for "free". (Actually it was paid for with your tax dollars.)

Do you use the internet? Great, because it's infrastructure is partially supported by government funds. Did you pay the "full cost"? No.

Ever cross the street? Did you have to insert a coin to operate the crossing signal? No. You got it for "free".

Do you have money in a bank in the US? Do you worry about the bank going out of business and taking your money? Of course not. Your money is insured (unless you use a non-FDIC insured bank). Did you pay for that insurance? No. You got it for "free".

The "I want to pay for what I get, I don't need no handouts" rhetoric is starting to sound more like a poorly disguised way of saying "I want all of the benefits of living in a society without sharing any of the costs or responsibilities". Well, like it or not, you take advantage of "handouts" every day. It's time to grow up, realize that you are part of a society that bears a responsibility for the well-being of its members, and to shoulder part of that burden.

Steal claw are you a fan of your constitutional rights ?

to shoot down your post
yes i pay my share in taxes every weak state Government Fica that money is going directly to the government i don't get to see it or touch it, and its put to the projects you pointed out . In Arizonan there is a 1% gas tax + sale tax 1 ,2,and 3 each tax is per gallon and charges a different amount. these taxes are supposed to fund street repair , and other government projects. The money is allocated in taxes you got to pay taxes or the IRS comes after you and seasez every thing of value to cover your fair share. In essence we fund the government to give the creature comforts you named. However as of the past 30 some odd years its gotten to the point where the government can no-longer be trusted to use our tax dollars properly this is how any government go's in to debt. It started in the bush administration and its only picked up steam in the Obominations rule in fact its nearly tripled.

[lightning claw]

Lightning Claw, all your lofty macho ideals about self-sufficiency and the Constitution are utterly worthless if a debilitating injury or chronic condition attacks you.

Picture this:
One day, in the middle of your life, you experience excruciating pain in your stomach or thereabouts. You go to the hospital and eventually they figure out that you have Crohn's Disease. For the foreseeable future you're going to have to return to the hospital every once in a while, staying for weeks or months at a time. These visits and whatever treatments you receive are very expensive. Your savings are rapidly drained away and you can't hold down a permanent job anymore.

Or this:
Toward the middle of your life you start to experience fatigue, full-body aching, etc. Gradually it gets worse and worse, until you can't stand or walk or run or lift or sit or even lay down for any significant length of time. You have to shift your posture constantly, and even then jobs involving manual labour or sitting at a desk for hours become impossible to perform. So what options for work does that leave you with? Almost none.
To make matters worse, doctors can't figure out what's wrong with you. Your only recourse is to obtain some kind of disability allowances, but you can't because the doctors don't understand and don't care. Eventually, if you're lucky, you find out that you have Fibromyalgia. You're doomed to this chronic condition for the rest of your life and, as the normal effects of aging team up with it to cause you even more trouble, everything spirals away from you.
You can't hold down a job no matter how much you want to.
Now what if you had asthma, irritable bowel syndrome, clinical depression, and one or two other very troublesome things on top of it?
YOU ARE SCREWED AND NONE OF YOUR CUTE LITTLE PRECONCEPTIONS CAN SAVE YOU. Welcome to a "life" of getting by on handouts from the government and your relatives.

Both of those scenarios are real, borrowed from people I know.

Gee well let me inform you about something i was one of throws People i do got asthma and i am prone to sinusitis where you get migraines to the point it hearts to look at a comp screen

i attended highschool was training to be an endurance runner i could blaze the track but only or a short distance at the time about half a track or 1/4 of a mile one day i start out in pe with the normal exercises then we hit the track ... as usual i am blazing the track ahead by just about half of it all of a sudden i get these ... best way to describe them is black dots in my field of vision at first i think nothing of it and press on then i get light headed and eventually pass out falling in front of the girls that just started to do there laps (it count have been earlier * sigh*) coach took me aside i was sent home after tones of blood work and about 3 misdiagnoses i was finaly deemed to have a genetic disorder with my thyroid gland (I cant spell the name hell i can barley say it ) but it comes down to this at the height of my track and field ambitions it comes down to my body can not handle heat what so ever. i don't discharge it/ i store it. and its taken me out of several jobs . Its my fault for even applying to throws jobs knowing i cant stand the Arizonan heat . Sure there is hormone replacement for triiodothyronine and its counter hormone i only know it as t3 but no mater how much i take my body still cant withstand heat it stops the other symptoms of me experiencing fatigue and vomiting and such but not the main of homeostasis / temp control i got to be careful . so depending on the water temp i can swim i cant do my favrit things such as

Rock climb
mountain bike
Run
should not bbq as much but i cant resist a good bbq dinner
most out door activities
and i am a very active person

so don't come crying to me about that i know these where the cards i was delt at birth move forward when one door closes another one opens even thow most manual labor is out of the question i have trained my intellect to counter act such challenges and have obtained dame good computer skills amongst other talents i would not have even thought of if my thyroid dint blow out its a mixed blessing / curse and i have accepted that

[lightning claw]

What if you are like me, and can't work? This new bill is bring about changes that help disabled people like myself. I want to work, but I can't.

i am sorry for the triple post but i wanted to address every one separately.

Nisse i feel for you you got delt a major bad hand .. there is a solid difference with people like your self that are truly disabled and have the only option of starting an internet company like smc or if your skilled enough a computer repair company over the net . ether or it will be extremity hard and in most true cases over taxing on ones body and if that be the case then you should not feel bad about getting assistance from the government

in my case yes i could collect ss and disability after a long drawn out fight but i have the ability to do things still indoors and in cooler climes i am not 100% restricted as in your case

IBS is brought on by stress of body and mine in my opion i am not a doctor how ever so i can not back that with concrete fact s other than i treat a person (family member) that has it

i guess you can call me a hard head i will attempt to plow throw any challenge or find a way around it

[Nisse]

Sigh. IBS is not caused by stress. If it were, it would be easy to identify and there would be a cure. There is not. That said, yeah I lost the genetic lottery.

[lightning claw]

then explain how my famely member that i take care of every day is directly related to her attacks when they are stressed with issues such as money and work they wind up in the poty for extended periods of time ?

[Nisse]

I've lived with IBS-C for my whole life, and paid close attention to it (as it affects me) for about the past 10. I've tried to do everything, including living a low stress life, and this has done nothing to alleviate symptoms. I can be having a great time and still have IBS symptoms. It would be nice if my low stress life as it is now would have made the IBS go away. It hasn't. It is totally random, just a coincidence. I may as well say that standing on one foot, facing SW makes my IBS better or worse, depending on the weather or barometric pressure. The only thing I have found to help somewhat is probiotics. They increases the population of bacteria in one's intestines. Sorry about the formatting, the editor ate my line breaks. (Yes, really.)

[velveeta]

i refuse to get caught up in this argument, but i am wondering, lc - being in arizona, are you one of those teaparty, militia types? like tim mcveigh, sort of thing?
a lot of your stated views seem to indicate that type of thinking, to me......

and i have to say, those kinds of peeps scare me way more than anything the government does........zealots make life miserable for us all, i think we can all agree.

obama is no worse a president than bush, once you start thinking clearly. at least he makes the pretense of giving a crap about the country, as opposed to his royal highness bush and grand vizier cheney.....

[LungTien Temeraire]

I'd just like to say that there is a difference between people who afford to pay for what they use (food, medical things,...) but don't want to, and people who cannot pay for this because they are poor, they don't find works,...

[Teto Frum]

I'll start this by admitting that I'm not an American and live wheres theres universal healthcare, so take this with the grain of salt, its the only system i've lived under and have experienced no problems with it in my life time and I've used it plenty. So ill just address some of the arguments following the debate that I found funny or things that I found odd.

I found it out that the driving force against the bill was the right wing anti abortion religious groups. Firstly isn't it ironic that a group of folks that want to protect an unborn fetus DON"T give a crap if it dies a week(or however long) after its born if its parents don't have health insurance. Secondly I'm no religious scholar self admittedly but i'm sure i've heard mention of caring for your neighbors and equality in my glances at the bible.

That Canadas Healthcare system is broken....not in the least, were taxed to death up here, less than yours in most cases, we have death panels up here....that ones comical actually. Rich Canadians flee to the states for healthcare, YES that does happen that wealthy greedy Canadians flee to a system that puts greed ahead of need, but as a guy without money ill take need over greed system anyday.


We need choices in healthcare, WHY my only choice to get made is go get better knowing whatever needs done will be done, no phone calls for permission, no bills when done. What other option do you need if your only one is good.

That anyone thinks that a system where depending on who you believe roughly 48 cents of every healthcare dollar goes to an insurance company not a healthcare provider. How can that system ever deliver the best care for the dollar spend, its a totally unneccessary middle man getting richer than doctors and providers.

Makes no difference to me how american healthcare is delivered but I can't understand for the live of me how anyone is against it. Poor health is one of the side effects of poverty, a healthier society is a more productive society no doubt.

PS: and to the laughable preexisting conditions stuff down there.....everyones got preexisting condition, its just if they are diagnosed or not.