So-called Friends who just don't 'get it'

[Kyrieath]

Generally I'm not one to dig this kind of rant out into public; but at this point, if I don't rant, someone's getting hurt. -_-;

I've never been a person to attach unendingly to someone else; I've always had the view people come and go as life allows. Maybe it was always moving from one AF base to another as a kid, maybe it was living out in the 'no neighbor for ten miles' sticks when we weren't on an AF base, but there you go.

Sadly this has left me ill equipped to deal with a particular so-called friend who hasn't figured out their part in my life is over and done, just as mine in theirs is. To explain the situation simply: He mistook being allowed to rent an outside apartment from my mother as a hint there was more to our 'friendship'. It took several years of trying to all but cram him down the throats of other women for him to realize that, y'know, maybe he did a li'l misreading there.

Finally he marries, settles down (supposedly)- but guess what? He's still trying to come over and visit. Just him. Not 'him and his wife'- he only comes over on his own, or tries to, and has failed to realize that he is not and never will be invited to do so. He also thinks 'Hey, pretty lady' is an appropriate greeting for a grown woman he isn't married to.

While I have no problem with platonic friendships, I'm inclined to think it's anything but on his end. I spent years trying to get this guy out of my life and he's still holding on by just that one tiny thread that just won't give. I've flat out banned him from my house if his wife isn't with him, informed him the next time he brings either of his two children with him I'm feeding them to the dog in little pieces, and I'm never setting foot in his home (aka- his wife's domain).

And he still just doesn't get it.

I've tried gentle hints, blunt hints, and everything short of shooting him to make him just go away. He was doing a fine job of ruining my reputation with his little visits (I live in a small town on a street filled with old people. Just guess at the rumors that started blooming when a man with a wedding ring on his hand was visiting a house that has only unmarried female occupants.) and when I complained about it along with my demand he stop coming around?

"Well I don't care what they think."

...Yeah, thanks for caring what you're doing to my reputation while I'm trying to get a respectable job here in town. I really appreciate it.

Perhaps I'm just cold to so readily want to give up a friendship; but to my mind, this hasn't been a friendship for a few years now. I swear, if he didn't have a wife and two kids to think about, I would have already visited violence on his person. There's a hospital just across the street, practically- he'd probably live.

His latest tactic now is trying to get all the 'old friends' together: of those old friends, I only maintain willing contact with one (and he isn't it). The other and I went our separate ways shortly after high school. The only time she's ever asked after me is to try to get a free babysitter.

Not a good basis to call someone an 'old friend' on. Sorry, I've got my own problems by the truckload, I don't feel like shouldering an 'old friend's' on top of mine. I'm very tired of being their little dumping ground, like I have no issues of my own.

With friends like this, who needs debt collectors, law suits and a hopeless job hunt to drive you insane? They're doing a wonderful job of it all on their own.

Anyone know any way of getting them to just...go away? Being nice, stone walling, and flat out informing them hasn't worked and I'm pretty well at wit's end for what to do here.

[Tzael]

I recognise the situation you describe. Given that you have tried all the usual tactics, there is only one option left. Ignore him. If you haven't got caller ID on your phone, get it. If he comes to your door, don't answer it. If you see him in the street, keep on walking.

Most importantly, never allow any 'baiting' to interfere with your efforts to ignore them. If they say something and it gets to you, bite the tongue and think happy thoughts.

It may take a couple of months but eventually the message will sink in. Zero contact / communication is the most effective method of helping someone overcome what sounds like an obsession.

[Frith-Rae]

Yea at this point it seems you have only really the two options:

1 - as Tzael said, just an all out ignore - no contact whatsoever on your part - no return phone calls, no return emails, no answering the door etc. If he mails you, return mail unopened. You may even want to go so far as to changing your home/cell numbers or something if he starts to annoy you that way (calling at all hours etc.)

2 - if that fails, or if you've beeen doing that and it fails - honestly you could threaten to pull out (and then do so if he ignores you) a restraining order on him. That's pretty severe I agree, and without threats of voilence it probably won't hold but maybe just the threat will be enough to let him know you want NOTHING to do with him.

But even after that, you're still left with ignoring him..heh.

[Pharcellus]

After reading through it, it doesn't appear that you have definitively actually sat him down and told him all of that, just as you told it to all of us.

You mention "hints" a lot, but "hints" aren't all that easy to read in many cases, especially if the other party has blinders on.

If you haven't already, I would either write him a letter, or if you feel brave/safe enough to sit down with him and tell him exactly what you just said, then do that. If you really don't want him in your life anymore, tell him that. Tell him that, from now on, you will have no further communication with him, and he should go live his own life, away from you, forever.

Be harsh, if it is the truth. Don't pull any punches, or "hint". Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

If THAT still fails, then yeah; terminate all contact with extreme prejudice (which you are going to do anyway). If he still doesn't "get it", then get a restraining order. Trespassing and harassment, especially by a male against a female (yeah, I know.. it's biased, but that's life), are often enough to get one.

[Mensar]

I pasted the below out of an email I received today.. Althought it was meant as being funny, there are some definitive truths in it and it might just add some perspective to your situation. Which I hope you are able to resolve peacefully and amicably, by the way.
---

The Man Rules

These are our rules! Please note . . . these are all numbered '1 ' ON PURPOSE!

1. Men are NOT mind readers.

1. Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down.
We need it up, you need it down. You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

1. Sunday sports It's like the full moon or the changing of the tides. Let it be.

1. Crying is blackmail.

1. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one:
Subtle hints do not work!
Strong hints do not work!
Obvious hints do not work!
Just say it!

1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

1. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That's what we do.
Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.

1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In fact, all comments become Null and void after 7 Days.

1. If you think you're fat, you probably are. Don't ask us.

1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one

1. You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done. Not both.
If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself.

1. Whenever possible, Please say whatever you have to say during commercials..

1. Christopher Columbus did NOT need directions and neither do we.

1. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not A color.
Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.

1. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that

1. If we ask what is wrong and you say 'nothing,' We will act like nothing's wrong.
We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle.

1. If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear.

1. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine...Really .

1. Don't ask us what we're thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such topics as baseball or
motor sports.

1. You have enough clothes.

1. You have too many shoes.

1. I am in shape. Round IS a shape!

1. Thank you for reading this. Yes, I know, I have to sleep on the couch tonight;
But did you know men really don't mind that? It's like camping.

[velveeta]

next time he comes by in broad daylight, meet him on the sidewalk and talk as loudly as you can (practically scream if you have to) about his wife and kids, about how you wish he would stop by unexpectedly with them in tow some time, how late its getting and that they must be wondering where he is, how about he calls them and tells them to come by for a meal, etc.........do all this in front of the neighbors. if possible, invite some of them over to meet this guy - making sure you emphasize he is married and a family man.
after this, always meet him in the street in front of as many peeps as you can - not on the porch, not even in the yard if possible, and take every opportunity to introduce him to peeps as a family man - not your friend or comrade, just this is tom, he is married to bonny and they have the most beautiful children, brian and sally........

if this does not make him go away, at least your reputation is better off then it is now.

otherwise, all i can tell you (and i am the same way and have always been very good at making myself understood when casting off useless appendages) is much the same as the others - do not answer the phone when he calls, if you do answer on him, hang up immediately. do not answer the door if he shows up. if you know his home phone, call his wife and let her know he is there and bothering you. get as dirty as you need to, depending on how bad you want him out of your life. if it starts to get stalking, call the cops and get a restraining order.

its all in how willing you are to get your point across.......

[Kyrieath]

Thank you for the advice everyone; even the men rules. *snort!* Heh.

I haven't been willing to go the public display route as yet simply due to not wanting to drag his family into it. At this point, I'd merrily crucify him publicly but that tends to backfire majorly if kids get drug into it.

I know I called them 'hints', but essentially they were more like me flat out informing him and trying to keep it just within polite terminology. I'd really prefer to avoid turning it into a local circus just because it's not making it through his skull that the friendship is pretty well over and done. I have flat out sat him down and told him what's up but yeah- willful blindness or something. I couldn't possibly mean it like that, eh? *facepalm* I generally stop referring to them as 'hints' when four letter words of very a foul nature make up the majority of the comment. *heh*

I suppose I'll just have to keep up the stonewalling and see if he finally catches on. He seems to run in spurts- I'll think he's finally moved on and then he'll come back around again. I don't know if he's thinking absence'll make my heart grow fonder or what; I just hate clingy people who can't figure out there are friendships you outgrow. He was a nice guy to know- about ten years ago and before he tried to be 'more than friends' (don't even get me started on that mess; it took years to straighten out). Nowadays he's just one of the many things I dread having to deal with if he's trying to get in touch with me.

Swear if I'd known he was going to be this clingy, I would told my mom to just let him live on the street if he couldn't find another apartment back then. -_-;

[Kumu Honua]

I'm with Maltavorn on this. Call the cops and get a restraining order. That should do the trick...

[Kyrieath]

He hasn't done anything that would be considered 'due grounds' for a restraining order as yet. I'm very much hoping he'll get the hint and just move on before it does get to that point.

[Kumu Honua]

Being told "Go away and don't come back" and coming back is grounds for a restraining order.

[ScaleIron]

You know, I had (might still have) an issue like that. A guy I met through a couple friends got it into his head that I "liked" him, somehow, and proceeded to call and text me on a fairly frequent basis.

At first, I ignored it. I had already told him that I am not interested in a relationship, I have no need for a relationship, and I am more or less perfectly happy with my current single status. For a while, I thought he got the point.

Then he would try to call or text at all hours of the day; when I'm working, when I'm driving, when I'm trying to sleep (this is when I tend to use foul language when talking, cause I HATE it when people call me at 2 AM. If they aren't dead, dying, or in mortal danger, I don't want to freaking hear it).

I practically had to sit him down and spell it out for him. Which is a challenge in and of itself, cause he lives on the east coast and I'm in the Rockies... I never got that, really.

Finally though, after all the ignoring and the occassional verbal fight, he's finally backed off. Took a couple years, but at least I don't have him lighting up my phone anymore.

All I can say is keep ignoring him. If sitting him down and talking to him doesn't work, nothing short of ignoring him (or that restraining order, if it's really bad) will get him to quit.

(Hahahah, I'm saving those Man Rules someplace.)

[Steelclaw]

I generally stop referring to them as 'hints' when four letter words of very a foul nature make up the majority of the comment. *heh*

Do you live next to me? During the summer, I would wake up to my neighbors having "discussions" fitting that discription every weekend.

Anyway, have you ever asked this person questions? It sounds like the communication has been one-way. "What do you want from me?" or "What is your objective?" might be a good place to start. Maybe he feels like he didn't get a chance to make his case. Of course, you've already made your decision, but that doesn't mean you can't hear him out.

Second, when you lay down your terms, ask that he tell you what he thinks you mean. "Now, can you tell me, in your own words, what I want, and why I want it to be that way?" ... "Good, now can you please agree to respect my wishes?". That way, there is no confusion or second guessing.

Be calm, be confident, and be respectful. Don't start (or continue) name calling or get into personality issues (avoid stuff like "You're a [word that rhymes with 'duck']ing loser" or "You always say that!"). Your goals are to make him feel like he had his say, that you understand him and despite what he has had to say, you still don't want him around, and make sure he understands everything that you have said.

What you don't want to do is make him think "But I'm not like that, she has the wrong idea (I need to change that, then maybe she will like me again).". You also don't want to make him feel like you don't think he exists (or at least initially). In either case, he'll probably keep coming back because he'll feel like he has to prove himself to you because you "don't get it".

Also, be particularly careful about flat out ignoring him. Doing so says you deny his existence. Coming from someone he cares about makes the experience much worse. That's generally not a nice thing to do, and can make people aggrivated and irrational. The concern here is that he may find new and creative ways to make you acknowledge his existence and "make things right", some of which may be solid grounds for a restraining order... but you don't want to go there unless it's absolutely necessary -- it's messy.

I'm not saying you're a bad person, nor am I taking sides, and I'm certainly not advocating that you get back together with him. I am, however, suggesting an alternative approach with some insight that may not have been considered.

Give him his say, have your say, make sure you understand each other, get closure, and part ways.

If that fails, well, I guess it's time to think about that restraining order.

Good luck!

[Sigi]

Steelclaw, what a wise advice, I like it because it puts it al in another perspective, not the good guy bad guy, but the art of good communication. Never been in such a situation myself but if that should happen I hope to remember your post.

[Kyrieath]

ScaleIron: That's the conclusion I'm finding myself having to come to, too. -_-; I really don't care to try to do that to people (unless I really hate them and he hasn't hit that point yet). Sounds like we definitely have/had similar situations going on here though- this is just taking slightly longer to resolve. Seven years and counting.

Steelclaw: I've attempted to talk to him twice on differing events- at first when he was oh so certain I was the girl of his dreams, then in more recent times when he started trying to continue the 'friendship' despite my obvious wish to just let it go. I flat out told him things were not the same from my end and let him state his: which wound up leading to one of those four-letter heavy conversations when he decided everything was dandy as long as he liked how it was going; if I'd just change my mind and let him hold the reins, it'd all be great.

Don't get me wrong: He's not a bad sort and I'm not trying to say he is (for all I know it tends to come across that way in a rant)...but he has a stubborn streak some two thousand miles wide and once he gets an idea into his head, that's it. He's as impossible to derail as a hurricane and just can't believe he might be wrong about something.

I tried talking to him at very first (despite the utter failure it was back in what I refer to as the great "girl of my dreams if she'll just change for me" debacle). I got a rehashed version of the same conversation we had back in that debacle, this time with any "but I love you!" phrases swapped out for "but I really like you!". Also known as his "This would all work out perfectly if you'd just be the way I want you to be" conversation.

He just tends to have a pretty heavy handed disregard for others' views if he's comfortable with how something is. It's one of the traits that's pretty much put this friendship in its grave. I'm not claiming I'm a saint and he's a devil, but I will happily say he's a bull and I'm a failure of a matador. I get too frustrated when he won't even consider what someone else is trying to tell him and it turns into an argument that gets us nowhere. We've both got bad tempers- he gets physically violent (not on people but he will start throwing stuff around the room in a facsimile of 'cleaning'), I say pretty nasty things I've been informed tend to come back to haunt. Neither one of us is good at dealing with someone who's goals directly oppose our own. The finer art of communication is lacking on both ends, I admit.

I've been trying to let it just taper off on a reasonably good note but he just keeps turning back up. -_-;

[Sonea]

People have contributed some great ideas and sound advice. This person exhibits some classic 'abuser' behaviors. Thank the very gods themselves you never married the fellow. Steelclaw's comments made me think of two things.
1) I wonder if there is a way to 'make it his idea' to end things. That seems to be the only way to get some people to listen. I'm not sure how to do it in this case and it sounds like you have tried several things already.
2) The challenge with taking drastic measures is that they can trigger drastic responses. So if you do pursue a restraining order (it sounds like an appropriate option), take precautions, be safe. He hasn't been violent yet? Keep it that way.

Sometimes the best thing to do is to just move. i heard this topic covered on a radio show the other day and more than one person said that they finally just moved to a different place.
*hug*
Sonea

[Shian]

"This would all work out perfectly if you'd just be the way I want you to be"

I've been trying to let it just taper off on a reasonably good note but he just keeps turning back up. -_-;

Have you told him these? I'd try first informing him that this isn't some fairytale he's dreamed up in his head. You have your own life and own way of doing things. Chances are, he's not going to be pleased with them in the end, despite what makes you happy.

The second I'd point out with a large neon sign, flashing lights and all that. Sometimes guys just don't get the "it's over" thing until it turns nasty. Ask him which he would rather have. That seems blunt enough.

[Pharcellus]

He hasn't done anything that would be considered 'due grounds' for a restraining order as yet. I'm very much hoping he'll get the hint and just move on before it does get to that point.

Trespassing is enough. As a female, all you have to say is "I fear for my safety from this person, because I have told him to leave me alone and he won't leave me alone." or "He's stalking me". Even if it is a bit of an exaggeration, you're well within your rights if this person _just_won't_leave_you_alone_.

If you have done everything you can to terminate contact with this person, and he still persists, then a restraining order is quite doable.

Seriously, call your local Sheriff's office and explain your predicament. They will be able to tell you what you can do to put an end to his unwanted visits if telling him off isn't sufficient.

[Spirit]

Perhaps you're really just made for each other.

*prepares to duck*

More seriously... there are some *people*, both men and women, who just don't get it and never will. They will need it spelled out with no reasonable doubt. I think, if you don't want any association with this guy again, there will be no long term harm done by doing so. It's a shame he's behaving this way, but if the ends justfiy the means...

Rakku