New Shirt vs. language violation

[Creme]

You are correct Ranqthas, many is subjective, as is referencing "experts" when the sources are unidentified.

I passed through Bristugo and observed 1 player that stayed near the character, making sarcastic comments the entire time. However, this player is a 13 year old male, who, I conjecture, is trying to look mature and worldly and I have some slight curiousity as to how his parents would feel on this subject.

I observed 1 player in marketplace speculate as to the name, when the reason was explained, she expressed some great amazement that such a t-shirt existed and was official gear. There were some 2-3 others in market that also stated disapproval of the shirt, as well as another 3-4 that didn't take offense.

I observed another player express offense at the character, when the situation was explained, she expressed disgust, yes, disgust at the t-shirt. She mentioned that she has friends with alternative lifestyles; however felt it was not appropriate for the environment of the game.

Another friend that logged in very late in the evening mentioned to me that her FATHER told her about the character in Bristugo and wondered what the game was coming to. I explained that it was a reaction to the t-shirt and that it was mentioned in the forums. She told me that her father was concerned and if the game was headed in such a direction, would cancel all his accounts.

3 other players that I know of also made comments regarding the "stupidity" of the shirt and it's inappropriateness in a game.

I think the point to be made is that it's not prejudice or intolerance to the concept of sexual orientation (although there might be some of that in some % of the populace), but that there is no need for any promotion of sexual orientation in this game, one way or another.

It's not a matter of choosing camps, who is offended versus who is not offended.

I very much doubt that anyone would have been offended had VI NEVER put up the t-shirt. However, now that they have, there are players that ARE offended with it's existence.

Personally, I would find expression of ANY sexual orientation as game sponsored gear to be in poor taste, as I feel it has no place/bearing on the game.

I don't care if it's heterosexual humans, lesbian dryads, man-loving dwarves, saris loving dragons; there's no call for it.

We are a mix of races, ages, genders, religious beliefs and sexual orientations, as such, all views should be respected, considered and not one or another promoted on official gear.

So, to sum up, my numbers are taken from occasional visits through Bristugo, marketplace feedback when it was brought up as well as a few private tells/queries regarding the character. When 9 out of 10 people discussing the incident with me are anti- and only 1 is indifferent, then that's MANY to me.

[velveeta]

haven't finished reading all the posts, but i would be very interested in hearing from all those peeps on chaos who are also offended.

i just never trust that argument -a lot of other peeps feel the same way - without some of those other peeps there nodding their heads in the background.......

maybe try to get some of the others to post their specific objections as well?

[Velea]

By the same token 10 out of 10 people who went to the site and bought the t-shirt approve and see the humor in it.

And for the 9 of 10 who are offended by it being in game, they have nothing to worry about because it isn't in game.

Nice how it works out like that, isn't it?

[Maliki]

Well still linked as gear offered by istaria, it is linked from the community site (VI site) as Istaria gear. Therefore it is material offered from a VI site making it ESRB rateable.. ooo wait you said HZ has no rating right?

FYI (ESRB ratings are not the same as movie rating, way different)

also most people with standards do not post here anymore due to being modded if they are not fanbois of Istaria, and actually offer difference in opinion, i say I was offended.... all I got was who cares, so why would other post here to be made fun of and told to shut up as well.

[Mairynn Nalnair]

Well still linked as gear offered by istaria, it is linked from the community site (VI site) as Istaria gear. Therefore it is material offered from a VI site making it ESRB rateable.. ooo wait you said HZ has no rating right?

FYI (ESRB ratings are not the same as movie rating, way different)

Why dont you report it to the police then if its illigal.

[Maliki]

great comment, learn what esrb is before posting, but that statement is exactly why more people do not post thier thoughts here, see above post

From ESRB website:
Mission

To empower consumers, especially parents, with the ability to make informed decisions about the computer and video games they choose for their families through the assignment of age and content ratings, and to hold the computer and video game industry accountable for responsible marketing practices.

and as i said before the link from the VI site (community one) says istaria gear, which is materials offered, falls into this area

[Tcei]

Were that I played on Chaos and had I seen this character I'd have chocked it up to some bigot who wants to spread his "message" by making and idot of himself or some idiot 12 year old who thinks it funny, and has no business being allowed around a computer unsupervised. Chances are you'd be on my ignore list before you could spread your message to me.

IMHO the dryad is rather conservative by todays mmo standards, look at the outfit you can find in many of the other games these days. If I recall right you can have your female character walk around in what is basicaly a thong bikini in Vanguard and then there's the bondage gear in WoW ( both rated T like this game), noone seems to make that much of a deal about either of those. Heck its even more conservative than what I see walking down the street most days. Not like you can see her naughty bits.

Im Bisexual, and I find the saying to be mildly amusing at most and certantly not offesnive. If you're really bothered by the t-shirt, then dont buy it. Worried about your child seeing the shirt or anything else you find objectionable, then supervise their time on the internet. Upset that you cant make rude and offensive names in a game, then go play another one. Heck dont like the fact that dryads look like that in game, then make a dragon, all I've ever been able to see of a dryad are their wings.

[Mairynn Nalnair]

great comment, learn what esrb is before posting, but that statement is exactly why more people do not post thier thoughts here, see above post

I meant what i wrote if esbr dosnt mean anything from a legal point off view then their oppinion dosnt realy matter .

Based on the information on http://www.esrb.org


ESRB Game Ratings

The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) ratings are designed to provide consumers, especially parents, with concise, impartial guidance about the age-appropriateness and content of computer and video games so that they can make informed purchase decisions about the games they deem suitable for their children and families.


ESRB ratings have two equal parts:

• Rating Symbols suggest age appropriateness for the game, and appear on the front of virtually every game box available for retail sale or rental in the United States and Canada.
• Content Descriptors, which appear on the back next to the rating symbol, indicate elements in a game that may have triggered a particular rating and/or may be of interest or concern.

Dosnt indicate they have the power to do anything just gives guide lines.


If you can provide me with a link to the part off http://www.esrb.org
where it is stated they have the legal means to punish a compagny or the power to force a compagny to change anything please do so.

[Drakarr]

The definition of T for Teen from the ESRB site.

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

That shirt would definitely fall under suggestive themes and possibly crude humor.

PG 13 from the movie ratings board

A PG-13 rating is a sterner warning by the Rating Board to parents to determine whether their children under age 13 should view the motion picture, as some material might not be suited for them. A PG-13 motion picture may go beyond the PG rating in theme, violence, nudity, sensuality, language, adult activities or other elements, but does not reach the restricted R category. The theme of the motion picture by itself will not result in a rating greater than PG-13, although depictions of activities related to a mature theme may result in a restricted rating for the motion picture. Any drug use will initially require at least a PG-13 rating. More than brief nudity will require at least a PG-13 rating, but such nudity in a PG-13 rated motion picture generally will not be sexually oriented. There may be depictions of violence in a PG-13 movie, but generally not both realistic and extreme or persistent violence. A motion picture’s single use of one of the harsher sexually-derived words, though only as an expletive, initially requires at least a PG-13 rating. More than one such expletive requires an R rating, as must even one of those words used in a sexual context. The Rating Board nevertheless may rate such a motion picture PG-13 if, based on a special vote by a two-thirds majority, the Raters feel that most American parents would believe that a PG-13 rating is appropriate because of the context or manner in which the words are used or because the use of those words in the motion picture is inconspicuous.


No...not way different



Neither BTW is enforceable by law

[Tcei]

Here's the T for Teen Rating definition, from what I see the t-shirt falls well within this definition....

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

[Kumu Honua]

ESRB doesn't have any actual power per se, but if they deem your game requires an M rating then you might find that you won't be able to sell in certain stores.

On the plus side. Horizons isn't for sale in stores so really, ESRB has no power over Horizons.

[Maliki]

Well around in circles... 1st it was the saying on the shirt ppl are bothered about not the picture. It was the saying and the offencive languge of the charater your refering to is the same wording as on the shirt.

http://www.esrb.org/about/index.jsp under mission... and yes you can turn in complaints and they reveluate the game and marketing practices...

No punishment, kind of like the better business bureau of the gaming industry... still not good to get complaints against any certain company, which alot have already filed...
that link if you want http://www.esrb.org/about/contact.jsp

[Maliki]

yes crude humor is seperate from mature humor, or adult humor which is also listed. Here we go again if someone has an opion that differs from the HZ fanbois, you have to prove yourself... and you wonder why more ppl dont post or agree with the boards. People were offended by the shirt... how do you want me to prove it... basically your just saying all that were offended well tough _____

[Drakarr]

There are no circles, the shirt obviously fits into the rating of T for Teen. In their definition it says nothig about offensive material in your personal opinion. And to report something you would probably want to show it is outside its rating gidelines.

Strange...when I read the definitions they say nothing about adult humor...it definitly dosen't fall under sexual content. If anything it would fall under suggestive themes being that frolicking is suggestive of something. It dosen't come out and say, outright exactly what they are doing..thus, suggestive.

No one is telling you to shut up, we are offering u differing opinions and showing supporting evedence to our point of view. I believe you woul be just as guilty of what you accuse us of, because, for all intents you are telling us to stop posting OUR opinions because you think what we are saying is telling you to shut up. now theres a circle.

I respect your opinion, and if this were a rated E or even E10+ I would absolutely agree with you. The problem is..it isn't. It is rated T and the shirt falls under those guidelines.

[Maliki]

Anouther point that was brought up to me is what if someone makes a shirt pushing religous beliefs, it would be inside the ESRB but would be offensive to alot of the player base will VI support it?

Tired of the circles or the close mindedness of the people here... its your beliefs but will not respect anyone elses opinion at all... and hey if you dont respect other beliefs, religons, or political views... does that give you the right to make fun of them... or them to make fun of you? Its nice when people can respect each others views... just wont ever happen here

Fair is Fair Drakkar,

One of my friends is catholic, he does not share the beliefs of that shirt and is offencive to him. Now if he made a shirt about Catholic Morals in the game of istaria would that be exeptable, or promoted by VI? What if he was muslim? or a McCain supporter? Some topics such as politic, religion, belief and sexual orientation do not belong in a gaming enviroment. Any one of those topics could be considered offencive to someone... so why open pandoras box?

Cya

[velveeta]

to answer your question (of course, talking to a wall because you have repeatedly stated you are done with this topic) - i personally would not be offended by a religious message at all, altho i find organized religion to be very offensive, personally.

yes i am a fanboi of istaria, because i have been here thru much thick and thin - and morality/opinion police come and go, but the core group that makes horizons what it is never changes. no other game i have played can claim that.

and in my experience and opinion - peeps who have only one agenda or topic are always more closed minded and lacking in teh ability to see other points of view than the fanbois........

o hey - i am a liar! i DO have a religious tee - it says
j.e.s.u.s. saves - the rest of you take damage

is this offensive to you christians out there? i am asking sincerely, no joking around here....

[Maliki]

<-- look at date, been through it as well, since Beta actually.... seen alot of people driven out of the game by the ones who think they are high and mighty because of these boards. And anouther friend of mine already left over this and the direction its going, yes he was catholic and a rl friend of mine so not to bad of a loss....

[Drakarr]

In game, possibly, dunno. But on a shirt on the cafepress site? I have no problem with that at all. I, personally, don't know anyone who wold have a problem with it. I cant say what the VI people would or wouldn't support. Mayhaps your friend should make up a design and submt it. Who knows, it may be liked by some and purchased.

I don't try to tell people they can't believe something, or can't be offended by somthing. But being offended is not the same as telling someone who dosen't share those beliefs they must conform to them.

I know many religions believe the dragon is symbolic of the devil. If they are offended should dragons be removed from the game?

The problem with bringng up being offended instead of the actual guidelines of the rating is anyone can choose to be offended at anything.

[Creme]

Strange...when I read the definitions they say nothing about adult humor...it definitly dosen't fall under sexual content. If anything it would fall under suggestive themes being that frolicking is suggestive of something. It dosen't come out and say, outright exactly what they are doing..thus, suggestive.

So why was the character force name-changed?

It either is, or isn't a violation of the rules and either is, or isn't offensive to some part of the population, or it wouldn't be disallowed.

I think that was the point Maliki started out making.

Regarding the players that were offended by the character in Bristugo; that was because they don't frequent the forums and don't care to, otherwise, they would have been aware of why the character was on display in Bristugo.

Those that were told either didn't care, thought it was cool, or were offended. There are players that don't particularly care for sexual content/innuendo in a public venue; that doesn't mean that they are necessarily offended by a person's sexual orientation. Just as there are players that have children/teenagers that don't care to have those children/teenagers exposed to propaganda (or "jokes") on sexual orientation.

Am I personally offended? No. Do I feel it's in poor taste? Yes.

I don't feel there's any need to push one sexual orientation, or even ANY sexual orientation in a game, especially one that caters to a wide range of ages.

I think we have now a situation where a developer is defending her "joke" and willing to split hairs over EULA difference of opinions, ESRB ratings, you name it to be allowed to keep her joke.

It's really quite simple in my mind. There are offended players, it is pushing the line of what some people feel is acceptable or in good taste. No one would have posted that they were offended if said t-shirt was never made public; however there are players that are offended because it is public.

I don't believe that it's an issue of sexual orientation or a gay-vs-straight point of view. I merely feel that any sexual content is inappropriate in this environment.

I was annoyed at the prophylatic uses of cargo disks discussion on marketplace yesterday and the "does it have a reservoir for the extra" likewise to be inappropriate.

[Maliki]

Very True Drakarr, it was just upsetting to most people when the issue is a sore spot with many after the fack, and Klauses statement of "yes it is officially approved" about the shirt just struck a nerve with alot of the player base, and it was after the game was made. Even thought the dragon statement is a very good point.

But as my friend told me with these board only certain things will pass, as Velveeta said the people who have been here the longest know how things work. I've been here since the absolute begining, beta... notice how low my post count is, for a reason.

Most people see the guidelines as being the same as rule of conduct... please no more on that comment, been beaten to death.... The thing is the clothing is linked to the community site as Istaria gear, which mean s Vi approves of that topic, and kinda took a stand... disappointing those whose beliefs varied from that, or found it inappropriate. There has been numberous ticket sent in, but its a tough luck issue.

If you truely believe people have the right to their own beliefs, why would you push yours on them? Whether it is sexual content or politics, religion, or sexual orientation? Which many people feel VI did to them by officaly approving that message.