Crazy Gold Burst Thread (you have been warned)

[Galdethriel]

While the picture of a dragons hoard shows gold, lets face it the MAJORITY of a dragons hoard nowadays comes from the hoardables that are dropped. Of that a very small percentage are actually gold. Also I seriously doubt anyone is putting gold bars into their hoard either. If you want the name to sound like something epic call it dragons rage or dragons strike then. Or if you want call if Rage of the Dragon.

I'm still not sure. Dragon's Rage and such does sound okay, but I think you're pulling in a few technicalities that aren't really that important normally. :/ Sure, to be precisely correct, we could call it, eg, 'Rage of 23% gold, 11% silver, 33% mithril...' etc, but what would it add to the game really? :/

'Gold Rage' can easilly be argued to be more of a symbolic name. 'Gold' has connotations of greatness, power, beauty and worth. Most of them fit the idea behind the attack okay. And sure, it's not precisely correct, but what glorified names are?

The design team has gone round and round on this issue and we continue to argue about it. The issue, to be honest, isn't with the Gold Burst (or whatever we finally call it) stats, but rather with Gold Rage.

You aren't thinking of nerfing Gold Rage are you? :/ Please don't do that. Damage output is what dragons are good at. They can't be healers or tanks and they make pretty bad supports. Dragons hit hard and that's pretty much it. :/

It would be unfair to give them a nerf and make them a hopeless 'jack of all trades' race. Moreso than what they are already. :/

~Galde

[AmonGwareth]

You aren't thinking of nerfing Gold Rage are you? :/ Please don't do that. Damage output is what dragons are good at. They can't be healers or tanks and they make pretty bad supports. Dragons hit hard and that's pretty much it.

We will do whatever it takes to make it balanced and interesting.

[Galdethriel]

We will do whatever it takes to make it balanced and interesting.

Okay, THEN we get a self-ressurection spell to counter-act how much we'll be dying horribly and painfully?

Just kidding.

Be careful with that though. Gold Rage is a dragon's power. And probably the only power which can outmatch a biped's countless choice of abilities. Giving Gold Burst and then nerfing Gold rage is just going to make warriors disadvantaged, or worse, all dragons. :/

Generally though, if said nerf consists of say, lengthening the recycle so that it becomes a more last-resort ability, I think that would be okay. But I say keep the damage output, or some people (including myself, actually) are gonna be: O.o;

Then they'll be:

Then they'll be:

Then:

Then:

And my hatchie will cry. :c

~Galde

[AmonGwareth]

Be careful with that though. Gold Rage is a dragon's power. And probably the only power which can outmatch a biped's countless choice of abilities. Giving Gold Burst and then nerfing Gold rage is just going to make warriors disadvantaged, or worse, all dragons. :/

Generally though, if said nerf consists of say, lengthening the recycle so that it becomes a more last-resort ability, I think that would be okay. But I say keep the damage output, or some people (including myself, actually) are gonna be

If we were just intent on nerfing it, we would have done it already. The fact that we're still arguing about it after this long (1 year +) should give you some indication of how seriously we are taking it. We want both to be epic, but think about what an epic means... It doesn't mean it is your base attack. It means it is your biggest most awesome attack.

So that is why we continue to discuss and argue and propose changes and shoot them down... repeat.

[Galdethriel]

If we were just intent on nerfing it, we would have done it already. The fact that we're still arguing about it after this long (1 year +) should give you some indication of how seriously we are taking it. We want both to be epic, but think about what an epic means... It doesn't mean it is your base attack. It means it is your biggest most awesome attack.

Phew, that's a relief. I thought it was going to suddenly be sliced down upon. D: Kinda like shield of gold was almost sliced down upon. No offence. :P

Epic attack eh..? Well I've always fancied epic attacks as having a huge damage output, which you can't use often, and big visuals like the bipeds' epic spells. :P But if it is made less accessible, dragons are probably going to want the debuffs. As I understand it a lot of dragons use Gold Rage primarily or only for the debuffs (including me because it's near useless as far as damage goes, which is why I whined for Gold Burst in the first place XD ).

~Galde

[AmonGwareth]

Epic attack eh..? Well I've always fancied epic attacks as having a huge damage output, which you can't use often, and big visuals like the bipeds' epic spells. :P But if it is made less accessible, dragons are probably going to want the debuffs. As I understand it a lot of dragons use Gold Rage primarily or only for the debuffs (including me because it's near useless as far as damage goes, which is why I whined for Gold Burst in the first plac

They are pulling your leg then about not using it for the damage. And yes, your description of "epic" fits what ours is.

[Hoberton]

Be careful with that though. Gold Rage is a dragon's power. And probably the only power which can outmatch a biped's countless choice of abilities. Giving Gold Burst and then nerfing Gold rage is just going to make warriors disadvantaged, or worse, all dragons. :/

Why does everything have to be in comparison with the Bipeds?

[Galdethriel]

They are pulling your leg then about not using it for the damage. And yes, your description of "epic" fits what ours is.

Well, I don't use it for the damage unless it's a life-or-death anything goes situation. Imagining others being the same isn't that much of a stretch methinks. :P

Why does everything have to be in comparison with the Bipeds?

I'm sorry Hoberton. It's just that 'balance' usually brings up the issues between the two versions of the game, especially in this context: Amon nerfing gold rage didn't seem to have anything to do with balancing warriors and casters, because it would be easier and less controversial to make a matching gold burst instead. You know, giving rather than taking. :P

So I assumed he meant biped/dragon relations and followed through with my personal opinion on the matter accordingly. It wasn't a dig at the bipeds, and I'm sorry it came across that way. D:

~Galde

[Veruliyam]

Silver Strike...

Gold Rage...

Mithril Fury???



Primal Fury???

[Favoran]

Ooh, how about an adamantium-level attack?

[Drevar]

How about this: refactor Gold Rage 1-7, then add 8-10 (requiring ancient as a pre-req). 9 would get you to where it currently stands, and 10 would be a more powerful version.

I do think that while it should be a very good attack, gold rage/burst should not be THE end-all be-all dragon attack. If I had my way (haha!) Dragon's breath would be the ultimate attack. Oh yeah, where are the rest of our breath weapons?

I would also like to see another hoard ability added--a point blank AoE based on Primal to replace some of the oomph lost when the multiple timers were fixed on the AoE spells.

Drev

[Guaran]

Why not just let the attacks share a timer?

As far as what kind of debuff effect Gold Burst should have, it seems like it should be different than the Crippled effect from Gold Rage, which makes sense for Gold Rage.

Something like a dazed/flashbang'd effect that lowers targets chance to hit, or delay could work. Similiar but caused for a different reason is acceptable.

My 2 Dimensional Scepters' of Radiance worth

[Guaran]

I would also like to see another hoard ability added--a point blank AoE based on Primal to replace some of the oomph lost when the multiple timers were fixed on the AoE spells.

Drev

What about a melee PBAOE ability QuakeAttack, where the dragon rears up and pounds the ground, damaging and stunning all oponents nearby?

I know that a similair ability already exists on the other side of the fence, mainly just saying it would be one that makes more sense for a dragon to be able to do.

Maybe these abilities could simply be one and the same, based on either t&c or primal, whichever is higher or something?

[Akuluxtraxas]

Its wonderful to hear the effort to Balance Amon but Dragons have only become this powerful because weve always been the ones looking up at bipeds and still do though to a much lesser degree.

As for kiting? every biped can kite/stun infinitely (and no i dont agree dragons should but NOBODY should) so if its such an issue why is it not being looked at on the full spectrum?

I know the current Gold burst is incredibly powerful on blight and needs tweaking but it disturbs me greatly to hear these balance arguments on whats still the weakest/least versatile race/class in the game and that also dominates the population.

Gold rage is used as main damage in game because it is the only damage we get that actually makes hunting effecient. Our other solid attacks (ravage,Drain strike, even silver strike) have 30 sec to 2 min CDs and dragon base attacks are pathetic at best. Our spells do 25-40% of caster bipeds at best.

If your so worried about gold rage I have to wonder why not everything else? Things like Thunder cloud, the bomb spells, the pure damage output everyone does..and lets not forget Dragons have to rebuild hoard to do that constantly..and if/when beatles stop dropping the crazy hoard that will again be a factor.

Gold Burst as its called now and Gold rage ARE our big attacks..but unlike my biped (over rating 150) Its all i can really say is effective. I Played at launch, in beta and remember how bad dragons were..how we needed 2-3 of us to kill a mob 1-2 levels under ours. I also remember Gold rage and Silver strike added as an oh **** button because the population after RoP (many consdidered the rewards/increase in ability a massive failure) beginning to drop in dangerous numbers.

A big problem with this game has always been balance (or i should say the lack there of) and its kinda late to suddenly fix it short of a full overhaul of BOTH sdides.

Id love to see Gold burst enter game but as it is? not even close to a Dark Cyclone in pure raw power due to abilities EVERY class can get (multicast,perfect spell and AoE to boot). The only real issue is its 4 second recycle on blight as thats crazily short. Definitly should share timers with GR but i just seem to have to ask why dragons have this big X of balance on their heads suddenly considering were still the weakest overall in power comparison.

This thread may get deleted who knows but I had to say it anyway. This isnt DRagon vs biped (though some trolls/others will claim it) but simply asking why these huge concerns when the problem already is fully in the game and i dont believe its going to be fixed anytime soon. Besides most Dragons have pet bipeds anyway that they use to abuse all these powers when they need em. I do it myself..though id never play my ped beyond that..IM a dragon at heart and many here are. I hope you find a positive way to bring Gold burst in and make it a perk as the game sure could use newe players and energy

[Drevar]

What about a melee PBAOE ability QuakeAttack, where the dragon rears up and pounds the ground, damaging and stunning all oponents nearby?

I was holding out for a Wing Buffet attack for melee. The problem with my idea is that I see it as a knock-back attack, which I don't think is supported by the game at the moment. A fallback could be to an AoE damage/stun.

Drev

[Deth]

Akuluxtraxas as long as people discuss like that we should not get the thread locked. my hopes is that balancing the attacks now in the future, when they have time and man power, will get us ancient classes and more balancing of the Biped classes.

[Creme]

I cannot understand the representation of dragons as weak creatures.

There are mobs I prefer killing as a dragon and mobs I prefer killing as a biped.

There are far MORE mobs I kill as a dragon than as a biped.

I generally use my dragon on the Satyr Islands. I kill much faster as a dragon than I could as a biped.

My Gold rage damage far exceeds a MC/PS Dark Cyclone. The difference is that GR is single mob versus DC having an area effect. Not to mention that GR is an instant and DC has a casting delay of 60.

I am for Gold Burst if it is equal to the damage of Gold Rage, but only if you're primal/power based. They should definitely have shared timers and the range should probably be close to that of Gold Rage.

That's my opinion anyway.

[Akuluxtraxas]

Balancing now and hoping for many positive changes such as manpower and time are very dangerous when talking an MMO in a market that has intense competition.

Horizons is a very small niche game and it wont ever have a large development team. Its just not realistic to expect that as the game is older, it has many significant problems (both in coding,engine,client and gameplay). this however in no way means it cant be successful for what it is. big nerfs and promises for a better future is what plagued Horizons under AE and Tulga. EI well just did nothing and ripped the customer base off.

One reason Horizons is still surviving is the core elements have been improved or left alone. love it or hate it Dragons are the presence that nourishes the game and in such are the most delicate part of the game..crafting is also right up there in that category. Making changes to skills like GR and how to implement things like gold Burst acan be life or death to a game like this.

I really dont believe Istaria has the future ahead to warrant great changes and upgrades of expansionlike proportion there for even whispers of GR etc in changes becomes a really big deal..Some may remember how the community stood together and expressed strongly how we felt about the possible testing of reworked versions of Gold Shield.

Just think the magnitude of gold rage? That is a Dragons only true force of power thats on a short cooldown and really feels like a dragon should. I guess in the long run its simply what would the effects be of a big GR change? and would it effect dragons enough to hurt the game significantly? Balance and excitement mean nothing when the world is empty and there isnt the content or rationale to keep old players and draw new ones.

Istaria is still here because the things that make it special are still here..altering them (good or bad) is a very delicate path to tread..it could end well or it could be the end of what we know.

[Favoran]

Istaria is still here because the things that make it special are still here..altering them (good or bad) is a very delicate path to tread..it could end well or it could be the end of what we know.

Wow, that really sounds kinda end-of-the-world-y. XD

I think that, in matters such as Gold Burst or other such potentially-delicate matters, as long as the devs listen to the players and don't just jump to whatever decision they want, the outcome will be good. After all, while they do want to make the game the best they can, what matters is what the paying players feel is best.

[RuneDragoon]

if it is potent, my offering of a name for the gold burst perhaps could be "Drulkar's Wrath"? just two cents worth.