Crazy Gold Burst Thread (you have been warned)

[Galdethriel]

I can gold rage a T5 undead for about 800-1500 dmg if all the attacks hit. Its not a one shot kill, but it saves me 4-6 prime bolts worth of time.

So does Zex.

Fooey. I must be even more pathetic than usual. I tested it again earlier and found that now I can deal about 800 damage. If I take on enemies 30 levels below me, that is.

Still seems pretty pathetic to me.

And no, I wasn't testing on any sort of beetle. >.>;

~Galde

[Zexoin]

Don't worry Galde, he does that with a lucky hit. It's around 600-800 most of the time.

[Guaran]

Fooey. I must be even more pathetic than usual. I tested it again earlier and found that now I can deal about 800 damage. If I take on enemies 30 levels below me, that is.

Still seems pretty pathetic to me.

And no, I wasn't testing on any sort of beetle. >.>;

~Galde

How is that pathetic? Sounds decent to me...

For a dragon to gold rage for 3000 total damage requires maxed t&c and strength. 3000 damage to a single target mind you. That same dragon will have "Pathetic" spell damage, pathetic breath of flame burst damage. My BoFB misses about 50% of the time, when it lands it does 800 or so dmg.

A primal spec'd dragons' AOE attacks are pretty decent. More Power (stat) = better Spiked Scales too. Tech Blast and Tempest with Primal Flash and they even have a chance to stun mobs using ranged attacks. Barrage and Gust have a chance to land Primal Vengeance if wearing that chest scale. With enough primal skill Accuracy V can be left off: Primal Damage V, Romp V, Primal Flash. Romp can do 100 additional damage (plus or minus 40 or so depending on mobs resists).

IMHO a Dragons breath attacks should be powerful no matter how they are combat spec'd, yet breath attacks seem to be boosted from Power stat, same as Spiked Scales, which favors the caster spec'd dragon.

I will agree that some tweaks could be beneficial. Caster dragons would be much more powerful if the delay was lowered on prime bolt while keeping the damage dealt the same. (simply lowering the delay would lower the dmg done as well per hit, would just be more hits.)

[Galdethriel]

How is that pathetic? Sounds decent to me...

I think it is... I mean, think about it. I do less than 1/3 of the damage a melee dragon would do, but I only do that much damage if there's a 30-level difference between me and the mob I'm fighting, and that mob has to be of the type that has poor-to-medium defence. :/

Caster dragons would be much more powerful if the delay was lowered on prime bolt while keeping the damage dealt the same. (simply lowering the delay would lower the dmg done as well per hit, would just be more hits.)

I would like that too. From what I've seen melee also manages, usually 3 hits or so during the time I cast one bolt. How much do melee's do with a single hit? It's like 80 damage or something right?

So, 80 x 3 = 240, or 70 x 3 = 210 damage. I do about 160 damage with an improved prime bolt spell. Faster spellcasting to keep up would be nice. :P

I can only go off what I've seen while fighting alongside my friend and my occassional go on my sister Skihlairk's dragon, though.

~Galde

[Guaran]

Thing to remember is that melee spec'd dragons are better suited to single targets, casters are better with multiple targets, as far as dealing damage goes.

Both have low evasion, so this puts the caster at a disadvantage, having to tank multiple mobs. At the same time, since refreshing breeze is a 5 minute recycle, this allows a once every 5 minutes "safe" (relatively) pull of a bunch of mobs which you can beat down with AOE's, and this is extremly similiar to biped casters whose Multicast is on a 5 minute recycle.

The caster dragon can be viable at much lower hoard cost than melee, but like I said before are simply better suited to different hunting tasks. This is no different than Warrior vs Mage, both are very similiar in this respect.

You are using unrelenting winds and grazing winds every fight are you not? Those make a big difference.

[Zexoin]

Galde, you may need to change scales or spells, cause 160 damage per bolt is pretty low for a pure caster.

[Galdethriel]

Both have low evasion, so this puts the caster at a disadvantage, having to tank multiple mobs. At the same time, since refreshing breeze is a 5 minute recycle, this allows a once every 5 minutes "safe" (relatively) pull of a bunch of mobs which you can beat down with AOE's, and this is extremly similiar to biped casters whose Multicast is on a 5 minute recycle.

The caster dragon can be viable at much lower hoard cost than melee, but like I said before are simply better suited to different hunting tasks. This is no different than Warrior vs Mage, both are very similiar in this respect.

Good point. How about more varieties of AoE spells then? :P

Galde, you may need to change scales or spells, cause 160 damage per bolt is pretty low for a pure caster.

But I'm in power/primal scales and using my highest level bolt...

...Aww man, I suck. I withdraw my argument with the discovery that I am actually the most pathetic and twiggy dragon on the server. >.<

God, I am *never* playing a caster again.

:c

~Galde

[Firebrand]

Romp can do 100 additional damage (plus or minus 40 or so depending on mobs resists).

Extra damage techniques can deal much more. If you use a weakness of the mob, you can deal 200 - 300 damages with proper statistics.

But I'm in power/primal scales and using my highest level bolt...

...Aww man, I suck. I withdraw my argument with the discovery that I am actually the most pathetic and twiggy dragon on the server. >.<

God, I am *never* playing a caster again.

There is no real secret. Power Scales, Primal and Focus techniques, training points in Primal and Power at max, Power/Primal crystals. Blighted scales can be a nice addition.
Buffs, potions and cookies will help you to raise your Power statistic.
Your spells have to be teched if you want to be efficient.
To be a good caster will cost you to have a poor defense, so a high hoard level can help you to enhance your protection with its passive bonus. But you can expect damages between 250 - 500 (depending on the mob) with the core bolt + the extra damages from it. Your Power and Primal need to be very high, though.

Short example from my logs:

You began casting Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy on Sapling Yew Treant.
You hit Sapling Yew Treant for 234 slash damage.
You began casting Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy on Sapling Yew Treant.
You hit Sapling Yew Treant with Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy for 486 primal damage.
You hit Sapling Yew Treant for 234 slash damage.
You began casting Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy on Sapling Yew Treant.
You hit Sapling Yew Treant with Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy for 318 primal damage.
You began casting Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy on Sapling Yew Treant.
You hit Sapling Yew Treant with Improved Prime Bolt V of Accuracy for 368 primal damage.

[Zexoin]

Listen to Firebrand, he taught me everything about spellcasting And feel free to poke Zex or Verd for hoard or equipment.

To go back to the original topic, I'd like to quote :

To be a good caster will cost you to have a poor defense

A melee dragon is stronger because of that ; he has firepower with Gold Rage, thus doesn't need to wear strength scales. Armor scales are good enough and the melee dragon can resist better. A caster cannot do that ; to have efficient spells, power scales are needed, and that makes us more vulnerable. Which is why I think an primal-based equivalent to gold rage is needed.

[LaughingOtter]

As we've said before, this is a constant topic with the design team. We pretty much always have some version being kicked around or something related under discussion. It's also fair to say that a number of the ideas suggested in this thread have been considered at some point. So, as a thought experiment - and nothing more - this is your chance to play...

Gold Rage Bingo!

Available parameters:

Recycle: 15 seconds to 120 seconds or higher, in 15 second increments.

Version: Leave at 7 or go to 10

Max HV cost: unchanged caps GR at 7. For GR 10, start the bidding at 2000. Change in 200 HV increments, up or down.

Balancers: The slower you make GR, the more you can do with the rest of the melee abilities. Speed them up, slow them down, increase the damage or number of attacks - take your pick. You can add a hoard cost but not remove one.

Rules: Decide how fast GR 10 is for 2000 HV, then make it faster or slower by changing the hoard cost and using the other melee abilities to balance out the damage output. No slamming anyone's ideas or suggestions - don't like it, make a counter offer. Also, the design team makes no promises about using or not using anything that comes out of this experiment.

Sorry, we're saving Gold Burst for the bonus round.

On your marks, get set... Go!

[CallakDW]

Sounds like how Callak is built indeed. Though I'm curious about how much primal effects dragon healing. Through his own healing abilities, Callak seems to be quite survivable. (even before he had his Primal Vengance scale of Power) Might this make up for the lack of armor to some extent?

[Deth]

Primal is to dragon healing as Life skill is to heal spells. So yes a Caster dragon should, if the skill is linked correctly which I think is for the older spells and abilities, heal better then a melee dragon.

[Veruliyam]

Sounds like Laughing Otter is doin' the Dew!

[LaughingOtter]

Sounds like Laughing Otter is doin' the Dew!

Diet Mountain Dew Code Red, in fact.

[Veruliyam]

Do I know sugar buzzes, or what?

I'll have to wait to get off of work before I can get home and do a proper pencil & paper analysis of your proposal

[Guaran]

Available parameters:


Recycle: 30 seconds.

Version: Up to 10.

Max HV cost: unchanged caps GR at 7. For GR 10, start the bidding at 2000. Change in 200 HV increments, up or down. I take this to mean than GR10 will have a minimum of 2000 hoard cost. If so, then hoard cost of 2000. Bonus Option: Allow to use (shared timer) of Legacy Gold Rage 7 at it's old hoard cost. This way hoard costs can be managed instead of wasted. Point is there needs to be lower hoard cost attacks available when GR10 damage is not required. If there is something similiar in mind for say Silver Strike and other attacks then the legacy GR may not be needed.

Balancers: The slower you make GR, the more you can do with the rest of the melee abilities. Speed them up, slow them down, increase the damage or number of attacks - take your pick. You can add a hoard cost but not remove one.

Rules: Decide how fast GR 10 is for 2000 HV, then make it faster or slower by changing the hoard cost and using the other melee abilities to balance out the damage output. No slamming anyone's ideas or suggestions - don't like it, make a counter offer. Also, the design team makes no promises about using or not using anything that comes out of this experiment.

Interesting idea's. If you are thinking of an epic melee attack with a very high hoard cost, I think thats a good idea. however I would not want it to replace GR. This is if GR10 was something like a 5 minute recycle, 12,000 dmg attack. (not sure what you are thinking of). This sounds like a good option, but I wouldn't that to replace GR7.

This must be what you mean by increasing or modifying the other regular abilities... I'll have to get back to you on that.

[Deth]

Guaran what i think he means is take all the abilities and rework them. So if you want GR 10 at 2k Hoard then make it a longer recycle timer but as a balancer increase the damage of the non-hoard attacks. Think of it as a melee ability rework. Someone just need to figure out what they current damage at X time is to use as a baseline then we the players get to move the damage around to where we want it as long as it comes out to the same amount of damage over the X secs.

Edit: Can we say GR10 is Ancient only and add new Ancient only Melee abilities as balancers?

[LaughingOtter]

Guaran what i think he means is take all the abilities and rework them. So if you want GR 10 at 2k Hoard then make it a longer recycle timer but as a balancer increase the damage of the non-hoard attacks.

You got it.

Can we say GR10 is Ancient only

"I'll allow it!" - Referee Mills Lane, Celebrity Deathmatch

(New abilities, no. Trying to keep this to one kettle of fish at a time.)

[LaughingOtter]

I take this to mean than GR10 will have a minimum of 2000 hoard cost.

Not exactly. If you think 2000 HV is reasonable for a 45-second recycle, and you want GR10 on 15 seconds, how much HV would you be willing to add to the base cost in order to get that 15 second recycle? (HV goes up as recycle goes down)

If you decide 2000 is worth a 30 second recycle and you want to bring the cost down, make the recycle longer and use the other melee abilities to fill in the loss of DPS.

Keeping GR7 available as a lower-power option is an intriguing thought.

[Silverblaze]

I'm passionate about this ability and dragons a a whole. I'm going to mute myself muchly and give my opinion. It will not be popular.

I want one of two things:

A) I want the quest line to go to gold rage 10. make the last three quests hard, epic if you will.
Make gold rage 10 similar to gold rage 7 is now. I don't care what hte cost in hoard. I can make due. Maybe make it ancient, only...I know some flks won't like it but... well you get my drift.

B) Change timers slowly of most abilities and tweak them damage-wise to average a similar DPS to right now. If DPS is similar, I don't care about any single ability. I truly don't. That is the goal of this post. That is what many would like to see, I hope.

After that stuff gets hammered out: I support giving spell caster dragons ( I am avoiding faction names as stereotypes, I advise others to do the same to avoid "I'm helian and mele fight a lot" and vice versa comments.) some love. a gold rage spell and a silver strike spell. Link the timers. Thats a must. or the average well rounded drake will pwn everything with 4 sub par damages as opposed to his 2 favorites.

Game balance is key here.

That said: I stress another point. Bipeds and dragons maybe shouldn't be compared. However as different as the game is to them, they interact, it IS the sameworld we all live and play in. Maybe dragons ask for a lot. I wont say they do; to avoid a wall of flame thrown my way (yes that was a pun)

In any case. For a dragon to be useful to a group (be it hunting for exp, comps, trophies, or epic bad guys) they need something to makethem useful. At present it is DPS and a relatively high armor rating. I support that being a trend. I hope people can agree with most of what I say here. It seems very sensible to me.
This sounds very general...it is.

I merely want players and developers alike to be willign totakehte time to do this right to avoid the nearly unavoidable outcry against nerfs.

I've seen the gold rage ranged ability in action. If I had it I would use it... I would solo most critters and people would hate me. It's that good. It's truly overpowered as is.

So in closing, patience is what will get this resolved smoothly.


EDIT: I am too tired to fix all my typos, please excuse them.