Making HZ more appealing to more players

[Token]

Horizons - State of the Game, Why hasn't it been more successful?

When operating a fantasy MMOG you absolutely can not underestimate the value of diverse and interesting loots!
And I believe this has been a significant problem for Horizons because all the player gear is dependent on the players to create.

And for a second problem we have to consider the fact that no matter how good your crafting system is, some players won't want to do it.
Many of the players who come to these games are looking for the thrill of virtual combat.

I happen to know for a fact that many online gamers are looking for a combat system where player skill plays a larger role in the outcome.
If winning the battle is simply a matter of spaming your attack skills as soon as they become available, these players will keep looking.

The interactions of colored stances might make your combat system more interesting, but i've never noticed the mobs to be using color stances.

And the desire that many players have for adventuring need not be a problem for Horizons due to the virtually unlimited multi-classing possibilities.
But the game could be significantly improved if there was a feature to find available quests and quest givers.

And for our strict adventuring types, the game is just not very rewarding in terms of loot or coin.
And if we need to hire a crafter to manufacture the best gear for us, we need lots of coin.
And those drops that other players want are primarily crafting resources - which is not very interesting loot for our adventurers.

I would recommend that you introduce more junk loots into the game that can be pawned for coin. And somethings with bulk that will fill up your inventory space.
Even though its always better for the player if we get drops that other players want to buy. Players should always be willing to pay more for such items than the NPCs would pay; and if thats not the case its a real shame.

There seems to be enough money sinks in the game, but there isn't enough money available; especially to lower leveled players.

Most of the players who have scrimped and saved in order to buy a plot of land; won't have enough money left over to pay construction costs.

And the building process is far too time-intensive and slow paced. Most online gamers don't have that much patience, they want to see results.
we just can"t wait for several days worth of hours to see something happening. it would be a considerable improvement if those building structures changed in the course of the process to show partial completion.
But what I would recomend that you do is make it so that optimal construction proceeds at a 1:1 ratio; 1 unit of material = 1 unit of building.
And of course if you follow my advice in this respect i would expect you to make adjustment to the payout in XP.
Of course it would be more realistic to do construction projects with a group, but its hard to get a crew if you can't afford to pay.
Evidently all these players who have been dedicated to the game for a very long time do have the patience, and may not agree with my ideas.

Of course every MMOG depends on having a constant influx of new players, idealy there are more people coming through the front door than there are leaving the game.
And a litte attrition of the player base is entirely unavoidable, because people will eventually become bored, lose interest and start looking for the next new game.
For this there is nothing to do but spend money on advertism, run ads with google, try to place some banners on such sites as FilePlanet and the larger Fansites.

And I know that some of your veteran players will say, improve the graphics, add content, run some live events.
But for the new player all the existing game content is NEW content.
And please consider how successful Jagex has been with Runescape, a good game doesn't have to depend on state-of-the-art graphics to be a good game.
The graphics at Runescape have recently been improved but still they're not comparable to the technology being used here at Horizons.
I'm sure there are still thousands of people who like to play Ultima Online too and Horizons is much more colorful than that.

Horizons is still a very good game all things considered, and with a few changes there is no reason it shouldn't be more successful.

The community of online gamers is truly imense and growing, and while the power-house Blizzard has made a significant contribution to that player base, the people at Virtrion should be asking themselves, "How can we capture a share of those players who have become tired of WoW?"

[Token]

PS, so i've heard about the issues with Vista holding up the AD campaign. And the blighted equipement available in New Trismus only is similar to what i'm thinking would be good junk loots, but it doesn't have to be useable equipable items.

[Dragonboy]

Horizons - State of the Game, Why hasn't it been more successful?

When operating a fantasy MMOG you absolutely can not underestimate the value of diverse and interesting loots!
And I believe this has been a significant problem for Horizons because all the player gear is dependent on the players to create.
Never heard of the epic mobs with their own special epic weapons?

And for a second problem we have to consider the fact that no matter how good your crafting system is, some players won't want to do it.
Many of the players who come to these games are looking for the thrill of virtual combat.
The whole game is loaded with mobs to kill in virtual combat. Ever tried the epics OR any WA in your level range?

I happen to know for a fact that many online gamers are looking for a combat system where player skill plays a larger role in the outcome.
If winning the battle is simply a matter of spaming your attack skills as soon as they become available, these players will keep looking.
If I wanted a game in which winning depended on how fast I can push my mouse button on the target I would have kept playing SWG right after the screw up, but depending on how many enemies surround you it can get boring indeed.

The interactions of colored stances might make your combat system more interesting, but i've never noticed the mobs to be using color stances.
I can remember years ago that some mobs randomly switched stances, was quite annoying and was happy to see it removed.

And the desire that many players have for adventuring need not be a problem for Horizons due to the virtually unlimited multi-classing possibilities.
But the game could be significantly improved if there was a feature to find available quests and quest givers.

And for our strict adventuring types, the game is just not very rewarding in terms of loot or coin.
And if we need to hire a crafter to manufacture the best gear for us, we need lots of coin.
And those drops that other players want are primarily crafting resources - which is not very interesting loot for our adventurers.

I would recommend that you introduce more junk loots into the game that can be pawned for coin. And somethings with bulk that will fill up your inventory space.
Even though its always better for the player if we get drops that other players want to buy. Players should always be willing to pay more for such items than the NPCs would pay; and if thats not the case its a real shame.
Very very BAD idea. Why in Istaria’s name would I want to have my Inventory filling up with absolute junk, you want or need coin? Do a trophy hunting quest or hunt the mobs first and finish multiple trophy hunting quest!! Or if you like crafting? Craft something and pawn that for coin.

There seems to be enough money sinks in the game, but there isn't enough money available; especially to lower leveled players.
With the new change of removing loretokens I agree some might have a little more difficulty, but they will manage if they want. Instant gratification leeds to faster leaving in some cases.

Most of the players who have scrimped and saved in order to buy a plot of land; won't have enough money left over to pay construction costs.

And the building process is far too time-intensive and slow paced. Most online gamers don't have that much patience, they want to see results.
we just can"t wait for several days worth of hours to see something happening. it would be a considerable improvement if those building structures changed in the course of the process to show partial completion.
Was rome build in 1 day? Was your home were you live in build in 1 day? There you have your answer… If you want a piece of land, you will have to work for it, either by:
1. Building it yourself, sure it can be boring, but really cool to finally have applied that last construction block.
2. Having friends/strangers help you build your plot or lair. Some might want coin for that, well you will have to work for it.

But what I would recomend that you do is make it so that optimal construction proceeds at a 1:1 ratio; 1 unit of material = 1 unit of building.
And of course if you follow my advice in this respect i would expect you to make adjustment to the payout in XP.
Of course it would be more realistic to do construction projects with a group, but its hard to get a crew if you can't afford to pay.

I agree that some of the building ratio’s are very bad, considering my lair its 15:1 or 20:1 ratio and then also 2:1 for placement. Sure that’s bad, but you get used to it. (although wouldn’t mind seeing it lowered to maybe 10:1 and 15:1).

Evidently all these players who have been dedicated to the game for a very long time do have the patience, and may not agree with my ideas.

Of course every MMOG depends on having a constant influx of new players, idealy there are more people coming through the front door than there are leaving the game.
And a litte attrition of the player base is entirely unavoidable, because people will eventually become bored, lose interest and start looking for the next new game.
For this there is nothing to do but spend money on advertism, run ads with google, try to place some banners on such sites as FilePlanet and the larger Fansites.

And I know that some of your veteran players will say, improve the graphics, add content, run some live events.
But for the new player all the existing game content is NEW content.
And please consider how successful Jagex has been with Runescape, a good game doesn't have to depend on state-of-the-art graphics to be a good game.
The graphics at Runescape have recently been improved but still they're not comparable to the technology being used here at Horizons.
I'm sure there are still thousands of people who like to play Ultima Online too and Horizons is much more colorful than that.

Horizons is still a very good game all things considered, and with a few changes there is no reason it shouldn't be more successful.

The community of online gamers is truly imense and growing, and while the power-house Blizzard has made a significant contribution to that player base, the people at Virtrion should be asking themselves, "How can we capture a share of those players who have become tired of WoW?"
You might not know it, but for now Vista is not supported, that makes large scale advertisement quite dangerous. It is better to advertise when you are compatible to the currently mass used OS, then trying to get many angry people because they cannot play. An angry player is most probably not a returning player don’t forget that.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

dragonboy so you saying somthing else is the problem? if you counter all this critics, you need to give another explanation why horizons isnt more successfull.

i think Token has good points. and some of them are certainly the reason why many players quitted or never even tried.

as a dragon you have ability questlines that are great. but you forget bipeds dont have that. when i played i had a really hard time finding nice quests, and almost always the reward was VERY disapoiting. dragons get a new ability that is very nice. but as a biped you get 200xp and 3 silver. THE JOY. makes you feel sick and not do it again.

now i know alot of istarian like the way things are. they dont want loot driven people/achievers inside their virtual world. they like it peacefull and quiet.
it doesnt matter how much you like it, but it is the reason why the masses didnt/dont play. probably even more then the outdated graphics, since there are very popular games with outdated graphics out there.

Its such a hard question for the devs, at least if they are in financial distress.
Do we wanna try attract alot more players but risk our current base?
Or do we try to expand our current base slowly with (more rare) friendly players who like crafting and community over kill-rewards.

Result: not alot of rare items ingame, but alot of rare players

It looks like they chosen the second to me. and i truely wish they succeed at keeping that profitable for themselves.
However to be honest i find it hard to not be bored when i log into istaria myself. But thats just because i played it over 1000 hours (i still keep my account active though) and new rare items wouldnt fix it, it just would make me get that item and put me back to 0 again after. So i keep mmo-hopping and prolly be back a bit for the blighted lab.

[Token]

Remember all those players who have stuck around and been dedicated to the game for a very long time are unusually patient compared to the average online gamer. And I'm certainly not saying there isn't enough end game content, but i haven't seen it yet myself. I'm talking mostly about what lower level players need to keep enough interest to stick it out and make it to the end game.

Consider how immensely successful Diablo II was as a stand alone PC game; primarily because of the large variety of loots. And it doesn't even matter that most of the droped items will end up being unusable to the character and get sold for coin. Its unavoidable that loot will be converted into coin especially where you have limited storage.

Horizons DOES have a huge diversity of crafted items and equipment combinations are almost unlimited, but thats not LOOT!

I spent several hours hunting large Rexus the other day, and I got a nice stack of tropies from it, and skins. But that trophies is a grey disc! Not very exciting loot. The coin purses were much nicer loots. But all that stuff I looted is barely adding any bulk to my bags, I want full bags and a trip to sell off my spoils. Thats what you really need for a successful game.

I say there isn't enough coin available to the lower level players, the economy is non-existant.

And I know that I my be able to find players who will craft gear for me free, but they shouldn't do that it undermines any kind of economy you can hope to have in the game. There should always be a fair exchange, time for time spent.

[LOVWYRM]

Good to read you Thango Long not seen..
Hope to fight at your side in the Labyrinth!

But-all in all I agree with Rvlion, but have no good ideas either

[Dragonboy]

dragonboy so you saying somthing else is the problem? if you counter all this critics, you need to give another explanation why horizons isnt more successfull.

i think Token has good points. and some of them are certainly the reason why many players quitted or never even tried.

as a dragon you have ability questlines that are great. but you forget bipeds dont have that. when i played i had a really hard time finding nice quests, and almost always the reward was VERY disapoiting. dragons get a new ability that is very nice. but as a biped you get 200xp and 3 silver. THE JOY. makes you feel sick and not do it again.

now i know alot of istarian like the way things are. they dont want loot driven people/achievers inside their virtual world. they like it peacefull and quiet.
it doesnt matter how much you like it, but it is the reason why the masses didnt/dont play. probably even more then the outdated graphics, since there are very popular games with outdated graphics out there.

Its such a hard question for the devs, at least if they are in financial distress.
Do we wanna try attract alot more players but risk our current base?
Or do we try to expand our current base slowly with (more rare) friendly players who like crafting and community over kill-rewards.

Result: not alot of rare items ingame, but alot of rare players

It looks like they chosen the second to me. and i truely wish they succeed at keeping that profitable for themselves.
However to be honest i find it hard to not be bored when i log into istaria myself. But thats just because i played it over 1000 hours (i still keep my account active though) and new rare items wouldnt fix it, it just would make me get that item and put me back to 0 again after. So i keep mmo-hopping and prolly be back a bit for the blighted lab.

Yes I have things to say about what is stated, because not everything has an easy sollution and some things I personally think would be bad for the game. Why should I explane myself more then I already did, I was clear about what I said and if you dont agree come with specifics.

As to not many quests to do apart from trophy hunting quests...
I trully agree, yes dragons have there ability quests, if you like the trophy hunter quests you will also love these "kill xx mobs and return". Most quests not related to the ability quests are fun and I would love to have more quests with long storylines and more information about the history and present day Istaria. But I have actually given up hope of recieving them on short term, then when they do arrive ingame I have a happy surprise instead of dissapointment.

As to any quest idea's why not write your own.
http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=17887
Read and have fun... Who knows it might get added.

As for rare items or rare players.
With all do respect but I doubt the dev team is big enough to supply the demi-god bipeds with new epic type weapons every new patch or every maintanance.

So if you like the game so much... Start over and check out the new content from start instead of crying about rare items that will never come fast enough to your liking.

[Dragonboy]

Consider how immensely successful Diablo II was as a stand alone PC game; primarily because of the large variety of loots. And it doesn't even matter that most of the droped items will end up being unusable to the character and get sold for coin. Its unavoidable that loot will be converted into coin especially where you have limited storage.

Horizons DOES have a huge diversity of crafted items and equipment combinations are almost unlimited, but thats not LOOT!

I spent several hours hunting large Rexus the other day, and I got a nice stack of tropies from it, and skins. But that trophies is a grey disc! Not very exciting loot. The coin purses were much nicer loots. But all that stuff I looted is barely adding any bulk to my bags, I want full bags and a trip to sell off my spoils. Thats what you really need for a successful game.

I say there isn't enough coin available to the lower level players, the economy is non-existant.

And I know that I my be able to find players who will craft gear for me free, but they shouldn't do that it undermines any kind of economy you can hope to have in the game. There should always be a fair exchange, time for time spent.

Personally I dont mind having trophies in the form of various body parts drop, with Icons who resemble the item I take instead of the currently used coin with a T.

I do have problems however with swords, armor and stuff dropping of animals. If you understand my point.

As far as I am concerned and I have said it all before in another thread.
The gifted are supposed to be at war against the WA. Then let all forms, tech, rare items and all that stuff be dumped in their loot tables.

To take that idea 1 step furthur is to remove all WA tech comps and replace them with more types of animal comps. example 2 WA comps will be 2 comps for Animal A and 2 comps for Animal B.

But this is only my 2c

What kind of pawneble loot are supposed to be dropping.
Pieces of Jewelry instead of jewelry forms maybe?
Or an increase of Pawn value for the current hoard items (bells, urns ect.)

[Token]

Well you need to keep all the current drops of course, tech resources and forms should still drop. But the problem is that such items are not very entertaining if you are not a crafter.

Ok i'm willing to acknowledge that the main attraction of the game is the crafting but still. Some players just won't do it.

And the quality and number of quests may not be that important to everybody because questing will usually slow down your leveling in these games. A straight grind on mobs of the appropriate level will normally be faster than all the running around you have to do for quests. Personally I find that questing is where the lore comes from and i wouldn't want to miss out on that aspect of gameplay.

If Average Joe Gamer comes and plays the game for 6 months and then leaves, this is not neccessarily a bad thing. Because at least they were a paying customer that amount of time. Lets face it, Average Joe Gamer has lots of options in the online entertainment marketplace and sooner or later they are gonna hear about the next new release that will pique thier interest. Therefore some attrition of your player base is entirely unavoidable for one reason or another.

The main trick in this business is keep new players coming through the front door faster than players are leaveing the game.

And its inevitable that some of those new players will fall in Love with the game and stick around for a very long time.

As for the dragon Horde Treasures, I believe they should at least have some bulk.

[Deth]

I spent several hours hunting large Rexus the other day, and I got a nice stack of tropies from it, and skins. But that trophies is a Grey disk! Not very exciting loot. The coin purses were much nicer loots. But all that stuff I looted is barely adding any bulk to my bags, I want full bags and a trip to sell off my spoils. Thats what you really need for a successful game.

Thats just it. people yelled and scream that they did not want the junk loot. Thats what it is gone. The play base spoke on this issue and they removed it. I can agree maybe making trophies look more interesting but then you get people saleing trophies and not knowing they could be turned in for more else where.

What is needed is more loot type items that require a crafter to bring out the full potential. Or ultra rare one off formula's that require a crafter to make them.

[Token]

Thats just it. people yelled and scream that they did not want the junk loot. Thats what it is gone. The play base spoke on this issue and they removed it. I can agree maybe making trophies look more interesting but then you get people saleing trophies and not knowing they could be turned in for more else where.

What is needed is more loot type items that require a crafter to bring out the full potential. Or ultra rare one off formula's that require a crafter to make them.

But the community of online gamers is huge and growing, and all those players who have been dedicated to this game for a very long time definately represent a rare minority.

New players are going to come to New Trismus and think, "This is great, I'm getting lots of drops!" But the rest of the game is not like that and they are in for some disappointment when they find that out.

[Tcei]

Im not so sure I'd want to see more dropped armor/weapons that are better than any thing crafted, like it is in most games. This is one thing I think HZ has done right. While there is armor and weapons to loot (refurbished(its better than nothing when you dont have coin), blighted and epic), Im glad that most of the good stuff is player made, IMHO thats the way it should be. Furthermore it creates a wide variety of options, and since techs are hunted for it can create a potential market between the two.
Virtually any other game I've ever played, crafting was something people did during down time while waiting for their friends/guildies/ect to show up. The items made are utterly useless you couldnt sell it on the market or even recoup the full price at a vendor.

Dont get me wrong I prefer hunting to crafting. I cant handle long grinds in crafting, they take three times as long as adventuring does, but the fact that I can (grit my teeth and) make something thats actually useful rather than camping for months on end for a drop that has a .0000001% chance to drop from a mob that only spawns every 72 hours on a Tuesday during a blue moon, and then only if you are grouped with a gnomish bard, is considerably more rewarding and enjoyable.

[Deth]

You don't get it. This was on day 2 of release with 8 full servers that people were screaming about junk loot. I am not sure what games you play but I have never ever seen some one go. "Yea! I am full of junk loot I will be back guys I have to run to sale off all this wonderful junk! I will brb." I know I have never done it. For me is it is. "Hold on a sec. I need to delete some trash loot to make room for worth while stuff."

I do agree that adventures need more worth while drops, but I do not feel it has to be trash loot.

Side note one animals having weapon and armour drops. I always thought of it as me finding the local lair and searching it, but thats just how I look at it.

[Sigi]

"it would be a considerable improvement if those building structures changed in the course of the process to show partial completion."

On this, I totally agree. The tiny saris house is the only structure I know of which has a half build state, and that's real cool. It was my first structure to build and I found it really encouraging when it popped partially.

On the loot.
I like the more frequent dropping of trophies and techs but I do miss the miscellaneous stuff a bit.

[LOVWYRM]

Sigi, large human house too popps up half build- as far as I remember

[LaughingOtter]

On the partially completed housing...

Yes, I'd personally love to see it. Making it happen, though, is not practical. Each building stage requires a unique structure model that has to behave in all ways like a completed structure, at least as far as placement and interacting with players, etc. Storage & machine/NPC hooks are only required for the completed structure, but everything else that makes a structure work in the game has to be done for the partially completed model.

The practical effect is that creating the partially built structures effectivly takes the same amount of work as creating a brand new building type. So, if we assume that a new player structure is budgeted for and all that, would you rather have (and these are examples only) a partially-built silo model, or a new gnomish small house?

It's not a bad idea by any means, and I think that if the resources were there it would be nice to see structures progress as you work on them. For now, though, making it happen just is not practical.

[Takora Drakan]

"it would be a considerable improvement if those building structures changed in the course of the process to show partial completion."

On this, I totally agree. The tiny saris house is the only structure I know of which has a half build state, and that's real cool. It was my first structure to build and I found it really encouraging when it popped partially.

Some of the older structures have this "half built" effect, but only a few sadly, like the large human house or the saris hut. But hardly anyone builds the old structures because they need tons of ress and have a huge footprint compared to the newer structures. Through I prefer the old ones, they look more unique and made with love, the new ones look like there where made out of a building set.

And it would be funny if only the pawnbrokers in dralk and chiconis would take hoard items if you sell them to them. And say everytime after a trade in an emote "Hoarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddd.... ."

[Sigi]

On the partially completed housing...

Yes, I'd personally love to see it. Making it happen, though, is not practical. Each building stage requires a unique structure model that has to behave in all ways like a completed structure, at least as far as placement and interacting with players, etc. Storage & machine/NPC hooks are only required for the completed structure, but everything else that makes a structure work in the game has to be done for the partially completed model.

The practical effect is that creating the partially built structures effectivly takes the same amount of work as creating a brand new building type. So, if we assume that a new player structure is budgeted for and all that, would you rather have (and these are examples only) a partially-built silo model, or a new gnomish small house?

It's not a bad idea by any means, and I think that if the resources were there it would be nice to see structures progress as you work on them. For now, though, making it happen just is not practical.

Too bad, but thanks for explaining
- hoping for so much time and budget in the future that having to choose between partially build or new models wouldn't be necessary -

[Raptress]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Token, but are you saying you'd like to see HZ become more like WoW/other big mainstream game? That's not a very good idea, as it would put HZ in direct competition with those games. HZ survives, I think, because it's different. It's a niche game.

I've already seen this game capture or recapture players from WoW. Do you know what they say they like about this game, almost unanimously? The playerbase. Those "rare players" that enjoy the more peaceful type of game that HZ is are generally nice people. I'm not saying that's a reason not to improve on the adventuring side of things, but it -is- a reason to put a lot of effort into retaining the current playerbase rather than changing things drastically to attract a new one.

As for construction, I do a lot of lairshaping, but I've not really done much biped building. With that bias in mind, the lack of partially completed structures doesn't bother me at all, and I'd rather see resources put towards, like LO said, completely new structures. I'm not building things to watch them progress; I'm building them to complete them.

And yes, construction does take time. But so does getting some piece of gear that only drops one in fifteen times when you run through a dungeon in WoW. I found not getting that gear drop way more frustrating than building, as with building, at least you're making progress. Guaranteed progress. I wouldn't be opposed to that 1:1 apply ratio though. xP

So, my vote is on keeping things the way they are and improving upon what we already have.

[Contagion]

In My Opinion there are only a handfull of issues that have been the downfall of Horizons. In it's favor it has the best crafting in the market. It has the best leveling system in the Market. These are of course my opinions but I know they are shared by most of the people I know and game with.

It's problems however are equally extreme. It has always performed badly and often requires a technical gamer just to squeeze acceptable performance out of it. I was in a guild over over 75 people and everyone quit because of performance issues.

The second issue is the lack of performance in the caster lines. Summoning still hasn't been fleshed out. It has what? 2 spells? There is no counter in the Arcane camps for advantage healing and COT gives you. Maybe COT should be masterable? I was a primary KNOC but droped it. The summoned Sword and Shield don't live up to the advantages of sockets. Maybe in an ideal world there would be buff spells you could put on the summoned items?

There is a 3rd issue and that is the lack of any kind of dungeon. I recall we were told back in the day the system would not support dungeons. I'm not sure the average player can wrap their head around a fantasy game that it incapable of creating dungeons. /shrug I don't know if this is still a tech limitation or a resource issue.

Anyway these are my observations and thoughts. I know there are such limited resources that it's unlikely these very old problems are going to be resolved.

The new team has done an amazing job. They started in such a deep hole though that I am amazed at how much they've pulled off. Even though I can no longer play I still think they are doing well with the progress they are making. If only they could make the client consistently stable and flesh out some more of the classes so players want to play them, not just grind them out to get credit.

Horizons is one of the truly important MMOs ever made. It was ground breaking and with the old graphics and tech limitations it is still very capable of mounting a meaningfull comeback. It just requires word of mouth that the game is stable for months at a time and balanced enough you can play almost any class and have fun.