A shard's warmth

[velveeta]

did anyone else feel offended? the logs don't continue enough for me to tell......

sadly tho, if no one else was offended (and personally, the snippet does not convince me of any delibrate offense meant), i would have advised you (privately, at first) to ignore them or to leave the chat room for a time. a friend could always let you know when it was safe to come back....
explaining why you are offended can often help as well - knowing the general background of why my behavior is offensive certainly helps to avoid it in the future.....

offense is a highly subjective thing. no one should have to suffer repeated offensive behavior, and sometimes one needs to walk away before they commit any offensive behavior themselves.

[Creme]

Actually, I find that there is quite often conversation in the "public" (botted) channels that crosses the line or is bothersome; and invariably, when it's pointed out that the topic of conversation may not be appropriate or is annoying, ppl frequently start bashing and/or defending their friends, whichever side of the discussion it's on.

Examples:
1. topics with sexual connotations.
2. conversations between 2 players that could EASILY take place in tells; however for some reason, they feel the need to share a completely 2-sided discussion with everyone else on shard.
3. sports (c'mon, not everyone likes the same sports, or the same teams, make a channel if you wanna talk football and invite the other football afficionados to join).

[RuneDragoon]

sharrrrrd war,th ,- like alpatr laptop - $10-0 0 dollsar cat cwarmer

[Vaz]

...Wow. You are easily offended, "s"aphire.

[LOVWYRM]

No matter if Saphire is easy to offend (who am I to judge this?) or not.
our discussion here is not for nothing:
The logs I saw were very agressive, sexual and offending - this prob exists.
And it might be helpful, that we have discussed it here,
and sensitize us for further situations like that.

[Steelclaw]

Oh, so many issues in this thread, which I originally thought had something to do with the cooling requirements of the datacenter the shards are hosted in.

While I have no answers in this case, these are my thoughts in general. Agree, disagree, whatever. The important part is that you (the reader) think about why you disagree or agree.

First and foremost is how people react to being offended. Somehow, a notion that becoming offended is not tolerable has developed (that's not just something I've observed within the HZ community, but among people in general). I don't know where that idea came from, but it certainly isn't a good one to follow if you want to be happy. Each time someone complains about being offended, they run the risk of being ignored, being called a problem, or facing retaliation. None of which are desirable and all of which are likely less tolerable than the initial offense. There's a right time to speak up, but that right time is not every time you're offended.

Second, there's censorship versus "free speech". Granted that the latter isn't a guaranteed right in HZ, but I think everyone playing has an expectation that they be permitted to say what they want as long as it is reasonable. So, what is reasonable? Certainly, anything against the code of conduct provided by Virtrium is not reasonable. What about role-play? What about sexually /suggestive/ role-play? How about sexually explicit or violent role-play? The line between reasonable and unreasonable lies in there somewhere, but I'm not sure where to draw it. One thing I am sure of though: "The potential to offend a person" is not a metric to use. If we adopt that metric, then all interesting speech, the sort that builds relationships, reputation and respect, will be forbidden since "someone might be offended".

The third is appropriate use of public channels. I'm not talking about reasonable vs unreasonable speech here. I'm talking about being OOC in an RP channel, or non-Istarian topics. Certainly, if a channel has been designated as an RP channel, I can understand and agree with not wanting OOC chatter, as that tends to break immersion. However, in cases where the purpose or scope of the channel has not been defined (or not enforced), I don't see a clear answer to what is inappropriate once the "reasonable" test has been passed -- particularly during hours and periods when the channel is otherwise dead. I argue that in general, conversation is better than no conversation. Conversation provokes thought, thought provokes conversation; conversation promotes a social atmosphere.

Anyway, enough rambling. I will not make a judgment about who is right or wrong in the situation described in this thread. I will, however, request that everyone who finds themselves offended and on the verge of complaining first ask themselves if the seriousness of the offense justifies the trouble (or "drama") caused by objecting.


And for something completely different:

sharrrrrd war,th ,- like alpatr laptop - $10-0 0 dollsar cat cwarmer

You're supposed to take the cat off the keyboard before typing on it.

[Frith-Rae]

Having been around when the draogn channel was created I can assure you it is an OOC-directed channel. RP is of course welcome and allowed - but it is meant as an OOC channel.

Having said that (which isn't really what's under debate here). Certainly if *I* start a subject that someone tells me they have an issue with, I will curtail it.

Certaily I have been a part of both private channel conversations (ooc wise) that got a little raunchy, teasing, joking involved - but when someone requested we stopped - even though it was a "private" OOC channel - we obliged. This is the more mature thing to do.

Now, granted, what Saphire quoted wasn't directly "sexual" in nature in that someone's head was poking out of someone's intestine - and they were joking. yes it was joking I see that it was joking.

But just cuz you're joking doesn't mean you're in the right and someone else needs to lighten up. I mean in the workplace it can cause lawsuits...so obivusly "joking" isn't an excuse. I've seen some of hte worst bullying and name calling and raunchy statements tried to be excused as "oh we're just joking".

Now I'm not saying what was mentioend would offend me - but if I was asked to please change the nature of hte discussion, I'd shurg and move on and do so.

But the fact of the matter is, on Order there HAS been abuse of RP - there HAS been RP harrassment of a sexual nature (and beyond..to stalking if you will..) to females and males who have not wanted such advances. The fact of the matter is there IS a fetish that involves being "swallowed and eaten" by another creature/person/snake/dragon whatever.

So keeping that in mind (and I know for a fact that there are people on Order in the past who have been into that type of thing, who have had people try to put that on them, and who know perfectly well that it exists as a fetish) - we don't know Saphire's or anyone else's personal history in this game or in RL.

Perhaps someone is sensitive to that because they are aware of the above, or perhaps has been targeted by the above - and is asking that the subject be changed because it reminds them of things they'd rather not remember.

I know that I myself have asked discussions about certain players be taken private because of my personal history with players on the shard - some people I don't wish to talk about or hear things about. Usually if I don't have anythign nice to say I keep MY mouth shut, but at the same time it can be hard to reminded of bad memories.

The request could have been respected - if it was "nothing serious" then it shoudln't be any big deal to stop. Its just good manners - even if YOU don't see why its offensive or why its a sensitive topic.

Just try for some empathy. Its an OOC channel, its a public channel. People need to remember that..PUBLIC.

[awdz]

Having been around when the draogn channel was created I can assure you it is an OOC-directed channel. RP is of course welcome and allowed - but it is meant as an OOC channel.

Just try for some empathy. Its an OOC channel, its a public channel. People need to remember that..PUBLIC.

Interesting, I thought that of the official channels (with the Istarian Bot at the top), only the New Player and General were OOC on Order. Marketplace, Dragon, Auction, Event, etc. I believed to be roleplay-enforced. I would like for someone official to clarify this for me, please.

[Shian]

Interesting, I thought that of the official channels (with the Istarian Bot at the top), only the New Player and General were OOC on Order. Marketplace, Dragon, Auction, Event, etc. I believed to be roleplay-enforced. I would like for someone official to clarify this for me, please.

See here I thought Market would be one of those OOC things... but yeah, I was under the impression we did have some RP enforced channels.

[Vaz]

No official channels are "RP enforced", sadly. Dragon is not a good place for roleplaying, whatever the theme. Leave it to the semi-RP/pseudo-RP/non-RP riffraff.

[Tcei]

The only "offical" rp channel as far as Im aware is the one called Role-Play, but noone ever visits it, so rp interactions are done thru dragon and mp which are always populated.

[awdz]

Officially, I believe the entire Order shard is supposed to be role play unless otherwise stated.
I found this in a thread titled, "Has Order become stuffy?"
https://horizons.istaria.com/horizon...olePlaying.pdf

also,

In answer to my own question, I went looking for some basic rules as I was totally ignorant in the ways of RP.

Here are a few links that I have found helpful; perhaps directing players here instead of to Chaos may be a better answer?

Roleplaying guide

Guide to role playing games

A Newbie's Guide to: Role Playing

[Vaz]

But there's no enforcement and there probably never will be any.

[Shur]

hehehe, my previous post may have been a bit of an overgeneralization, but there is no denying it was an accurate one. It seems every time a rant comes up about stuffy/abusive RP, it pretains to Order. And it must say something that even though the shard was not named, I was able to deduce which it was from the OP alone...

I don't have anything against any of the three shards, but to say that Order doesn't have its share of RP issues would be ignoring the proverbial elephant.

[Galdethriel]

there is no denying it was an accurate one. It seems every time a rant comes up about stuffy/abusive RP, it pretains to Order.

it must say something that even though the shard was not named, I was able to deduce which it was from the OP alone

Uh... Order... the roleplay shard? The server which is intended for roleplay? Which people roleplay on? XD

So if there's a post complaining about roleplay on an unspecified server, is it not sorta common sense to click, 'Ah, roleplay, must be Order'?

Yes people may roleplay on the other servers... but looksee:

Order - Roleplay Server
Chaos - Standard Server ie. Non-Roleplay
Blight - Test Server

Which one do you expect roleplaying to occur more on, guessing on a whim? XD

I don't have anything against any of the three shards, but to say that Order doesn't have its share of RP issues would be ignoring the proverbial elephant.

No one's ever said it didn't have issues. I'm just sick of the whole, 'Hey, a single person said something I didn't like! The entire server are jerks!' C'mon. It's not like Chaos and Blight don't have their bad apples, even if there were any bad apples involved in this discussion... because there isn't anyone who's been 'bad'.

Some people will step down because it's a public channel. Other people won't step down because it's a public channel. Both behaviours are right as far as I'm concerned. But from this case, because the joke in question had absolutely nothing to do with Saphire on any level--it wasn't directed at her, it didn't reference her, etc.--it wasn't actually the people joking who were being offensive. Saph took it upon herself to be offended.

You can't get at the people involved for not moving their talk the moment they were asked, even if you were to say 'It would only have taken two seconds to make a private chat...' because it would have been just as easy for the offended to look away from the chat for 2 seconds. Easy either way. It was no big problem.

So I have no idea why the rest of the server has to get yet another verbal beating just because a handful of people had a minor disagreement.

~Galde

[Deth]

Galdethreil Thanks for saying clearly what I could never say. That is my feelings to the T. I am sorry if you are offended, but I would say something and move on for a bit unless it seems that most of the channel is also offended, then the people driving the chat should move on, but if it seems to be just you then I am sorry you should move on for a short bit and ask those driving to chat to please let you know once it is done.

[LOVWYRM]

You ask why, Galde?
Oh pls think it over- it`s obviers.

I can only answer for my point of view:
It`s not that easy to annoy me- but if a player, lets say it politely,
attracts my interest too often, I will say so.
At least here in the forum.

btw: Loyality is an honorable attitude.. but not always approppriate

[Litarath]

The only "offical" rp channel as far as Im aware is the one called Role-Play, but noone ever visits it, so rp interactions are done thru dragon and mp which are always populated.

Actually, in recent weeks, that particular channel has been seeing a few more souls there; granted that a few of us there grew tired of the DC stuff. You'll find me there, and its usually mostly RP there, with little to none of the OOC things there, I like it ^^

Aeona calls that her sanctuary from the 'irksome adult and ancient'

[Galdethriel]

You ask why, Galde?
Oh pls think it over- it`s obviers.

Obvious how though?

Obvious as in 'everyone else is seeing every second of every day on Order, behaviour which I've seen from a select few 'bad apples''?

Obvious as in 'I should think that all of Order is comprised of malicious idiots just because that's what everyone else thinks'?

Please tell me, if it really is something obvious that I'm missing. I don't see it. :/

btw: Loyality is an honorable attitude.. but not always approppriate

Who're you referring to with this line? :O

~Galde

[Shur]

Uh... Order... the roleplay shard? The server which is intended for roleplay? Which people roleplay on? XD

So if there's a post complaining about roleplay on an unspecified server, is it not sorta common sense to click, 'Ah, roleplay, must be Order'?

Yes people may roleplay on the other servers... but looksee:

Order - Roleplay Server
Chaos - Standard Server ie. Non-Roleplay
Blight - Test Server

Which one do you expect roleplaying to occur more on, guessing on a whim? XD

Oh, i am not denying that a higher percentage of roleplayers on the server will lead to a higher incidence of clashes. Indeed, the number of people likely to take offense at any given RP activity no doubt increases exponentially with an increase of people actually participating in such activity. That much is only human nature.

No one's ever said it didn't have issues. I'm just sick of the whole, 'Hey, a single person said something I didn't like! The entire server are jerks!' C'mon. It's not like Chaos and Blight don't have their bad apples, even if there were any bad apples involved in this discussion... because there isn't anyone who's been 'bad'.

Complete agreement with you there, and that goes for a lot of places. One or two bad apples in any community will rapidly give it a poor reputation, even undeservedly so.

Some people will step down because it's a public channel. Other people won't step down because it's a public channel. Both behaviours are right as far as I'm concerned. But from this case, because the joke in question had absolutely nothing to do with Saphire on any level--it wasn't directed at her, it didn't reference her, etc.--it wasn't actually the people joking who were being offensive. Saph took it upon herself to be offended.

So i have gathered from the thread which unfolded between my first and second posts.

So I have no idea why the rest of the server has to get yet another verbal beating just because a handful of people had a minor disagreement.

~Galde

perhaps the game needs re-titled again? Istaria: Drama of the Gifted?


;p