Game Essentially Broken For Authentically New Players

[Dhalin]

I think the changes were made to encourage players to buy them from other players. The high coin cost for players the lvl 1-20 anyway) will hamper them from instantly buying every form in the game, making some forms a bit rarer to get/harder to find. While frustrating for new players, IMHO the reasoning is sound - the game encourages (some would say forces!) you to rely on other players to get things that you need.

Ditto with drop-only, and for the same reason as above.

If the robots only gave you forms you didn't have, they wouldn't be random anymore, and you could just spam them until you had every form anyway. Random gives you duplicate forms, but hopefully you can make money off them on the consigners.

I agree with the change for the reasons I've given, others will not, and that's OK. But IMHO that's what the purpose of the changes are. Also my crafting level is reasonably high, so I have most/all of the forms for Beginner and JMan. Got a lot of them the hard way back in the day when you had to trade for them, rather than just purchase them, so I felt the pain then

There's a small problem here, though.

Forcing dependence upon one another is good in a game that has a high population.

But anyone who has played Istaria for any amount of time knows that we have anything but a high population. I dunno about Chaos, but on Order, there are times I can count the number of people in Marketplace on one hand, and the other channels don't fair that much better. In fact, MP is usually the most-populated channel at most times.

Not very many people consign t1 recipes/techs; finding what you need on a consigner is even worse than grinding Lv5 ghosts near Attor for your silver needs. Pawn Brokers refuse to give much of any money for anything until you're way into t4 and even then you need to make hundreds of something until you get any real silver for doing it, and the Blacksmith is the only crafting trainer that really gives any coin for any work and that's only the first time you complete each of his quests.

I really don't see how a fresh-starter is really supposed to get anywhere, especially a biped. There's just so much crap that they _need_, but can't get, or is very difficult for them to acquire. I'm sorry, but I don't much relish the idea of begging for stuff. I've played other MMORPGs, and the very first thing you learn, is that people hate beggars. But yet, Istaria encourages such behavior so such a high degree... I hate being this lowbie who can't get anything for himself, because of the way the game was made, I have nothing to offer someone higher level to make my stuff for me, that feels too much like begging. It actually feels degrading, and I hate dinging levels sometimes. Its like "UGH... now I need a new set of armor.. how the *beeep* am I supposed to get it?" and then the grind of sitting in NT or somewhere, asking in Market or what-not, listening to the crickets chirp while you ask for Lv20 armor, or lv20 spells, or what-not.

You can buy Bronze Refurb stuff, but... it has quite a bit less armor than crafted gear, but that only lasts through t1! Going out and trying to kill Lv25-ish stuff in bronze refurb stuff is suicide. Especially if you're using a bronze refurb weapon.

Leveling Outfitter/Blacksmith to the point you can make Lv25-ish gear?

You're talking a several hour grind, likely 20+ hours before you can make yourself a set of the said gear. I should know -- I had to level both of those myself, just to avoid the same problems.

This game is anything BUT newbie friendly. Back when we had dozens, no, hundreds of people regularly using the game, back when the Augh connie on Order had 700+ items routinely, that might have been a good thing.

But now, we need to encourage people to play the game, and you just don't do it by requiring so much crap every 5-10 levels that people have to beg for, to get. A Low-Population game needs some means, or method, that a person can reasonably make it on their own. Istaria is not that game, the only person who can "reasonably" make it on their own, is one playing a dragon. Well, until you hit RoP anyways.............

[Vahrokh]

I had many less issues levelling my biped alt to 70+ craft (and multiple schools) than I had to level my first dragon to 30 craft.

As to trivialize the game to get more people: does not work.

First you get a good game that is worth pouring effort in, then people will do whatever is needed to succeed at it.

Sadly for Istaria it has not been worth it for years, so now the player population is what it is. If only Virtrium had been in charge since the beginning...

But making Istaria a nubcake game won't make it good.
Istaria's strong point is the possibility to find a good cooperative community.

That's the single difficulty in this game - to understand that getting in a guild is good. If someone even fails at the one difficult part... he'd not be good for this game anyway.

[LOVWYRM]

thats what I`ve just said in another thread, Vah.

[Dhalin]

I never said to make Istaria a "nubcake" game.

I said to make it so that someone could progress reasonably without begging for help, or grinding hundreds of hours to get past each tier, having to do 10+ schools to do so.

It all comes down to the "Black and White" syndrome... the game is too grindy and too difficult to progress yourself, so I mention this... then automatically someone gasps and goes "Oh My, Don't go making the game too easy!".

There IS a grey between "Too Hard" and "Too Easy".

Surely we can find it.

[Sigi]

For instance there is a lot of grey between begging and asking.

[Galilee]

Lov and Vah - careful there... Do we want a game where players are in practice or in reality FORCED to join a guild? Or forced to do so to be able to play a worthwhile game?

Of course, it's a choice that can be made. I know one thing though, any game, however great it looks to be, which I enter and then find myself forced to either/and join a guild and/or group up with others to get anything worthwhile done (here and there in the top-tiers, well okay...), is a game I will turn around and walk out of straight away. I'm in a game to play and relax, not to be forced. And I'm really not the only one like that

[LOVWYRM]

you are right Galilee- and as I said- it causes me a shortening reaktion if I get shanghaied in the very first moments in a new game.

But aren`t mmorpg`s guild games? I am not sure about.
What I know is- nearly all probs we are talking about here, get solved if you are in a guild. Is Istaria a game for players who prefer to play alone?? I really do not know.
Lets discuss that too.

[CallakDW]

I think many are missing one of the key points. New players are being misdirected by improper text. IMO this is somthing that should be fixed.

[velveeta]

i am with call on this - much as i like to play devil's derailer, the improper text and broken linx are annoying to those of us who are elder players - i often have to ask older players what is meant by what a particular npc or questgiver's text and information - but can be a turn off to newbies, who might not know enough players or feel comfortable asking right off.

fixing the breaks and maybe putting a little more guidance in the lowbie quest texts might not be a bad idea.
it would certain not hurt the first impressions of newbies, for sure.....

[AmonGwareth]

I think many are missing one of the key points. New players are being misdirected by improper text. IMO this is somthing that should be fixed.

I think you are mistaken, but I welcome your list. We ask for these things all the time and when they are reported we try to fix them. But if you don't tell us, we can't track them down.

[Duergos]

Amon,

YOu are right. There are not a LOT of issues. However, the most glaring issue that affects new players is the fact that the text of the trainers in NT tell players they can use lore tokens for forms. Of course when they try, they cannot. Also, the trainers give quests that give lore tokens as rewards. If you are gonna make lore tokens useless then why not have the quests reward coin?

Also, the cost of the beginner forms is way out of line for the income that new players can generate.

Lastly, add some text to the trainers to mention the location of the automatron or whatever the bots are that give random forns for tokens. As it stand now there is nothing to let new players know that they exist.

I would suggest that you or someone that you designate on staff at Vitrium, roll a level 1 bi ped and give it a go. You must take everything luterally and play as if you are unfamiliar with the game....

You will quicly understand the points we are trying to make....

[Vahrokh]

Lov and Vah - careful there... Do we want a game where players are in practice or in reality FORCED to join a guild? Or forced to do so to be able to play a worthwhile game?

First of all, I am so glad to see you still around... I get to recall the old days and how you were nice with us winged beings.

Second, my idea has been told several times so I did not repeat it again.

Imho Istaria needs a modern tutorial that really takes the new player by the hand. Istaria is a very hard game for someone new, with all its huge possibilities.
Towards the end of the tutorial, the player would auto-join the market chat (and dragons chat if he's one of them) and told to make acquaintance there.

That would fix a lot of issues, present and past. Not all - I don't think it'd be enough - but a lot.

The barren land feeling you get when starting Istaria is enough of a downer already.
Basically, anywhere but Bristugo teleports is completely abandoned in the eyes of someone who just started and that's not a good feeling.

Not having a chat with someone inside to talk with and socialize is the final blow that makes them quit.
In the past (I don't know now) the newbie would also find completely cryptic NPCs and their contrived mechanics (one wants tokens, the other tickets, the other chess pieces, the other bird's tongues...) and completely useless directions about where to go.
In the era where question marks and even highlighted maps (Warhammer Online quests) show them *clearly* where to go and what to do. When I played, the NPC told you: "the mob is somewhere in the southern world emisphere, now go fetch it".
I have to credit Amon and the other developers for their relentless and loving work at trying to fill those ancient flaws whenever they can.

That's all I think the game would need, expecially the social part cannot be replaced by just improving the game.

Anyway there's still something wrong with Istaria. Otherwise players should flock on this game.
I wish that something could be found and sorted out.

I want to see *hundreds* of hatchlings in Chiconis again.

It's the remembrance at how the game was magnificent and glorious and lifelike that makes me not play these days. I get so sad my heart breaks >_<.

I would suggest that you or someone that you designate on staff at Vitrium, roll a level 1 bi ped and give it a go. You must take everything luterally and play as if you are unfamiliar with the game....

You will quicly understand the points we are trying to make....

I found a working fix years ago, well before refurbished gear even existed.
I made an alt (some could even recall her, a black and white striped cute cat woman) that would welcome newbies one by one, sell them (for a symbolic sum, just to teach the mechanics) bronze stuff for 1-2 coppers, that would take them by hand and answer their questions and give directions.

I wish someone could bring this legacy back. To give newcomers more than the glacial "barren land" welcome they get today both in the starter towns and in towns like Kion.

[AmonGwareth]

Imho Istaria needs a modern tutorial that really takes the new player by the hand. Istaria is a very hard game for someone new, with all its huge possibilities.
Towards the end of the tutorial, the player would auto-join the market chat (and dragons chat if he's one of them) and told to make acquaintance there.

You haven't played the tutorial recently, have you? It was revamped in early 2006 and it holds your hand far more than most MMO tutorials (including the big ones like WoW and EQ2 and LOTRO).

It does not, nor will it, teach you everything about the game. It teaches you the basics of combat, the UI, quests, the world, and crafting. And that is sufficient to get someone started and on the path.

In my experience, and based upon actual REPORTED feedback from users since 2006 when the tutorial was revamped, the bulk of the issues came about because people failed to read the text or skipped parts.

Yes, there is room for improvement, there always is. And we are more than happy to do that. But blanket statements without specifics are not helpful for that process. If you are intent on helping, actually help.

As for logging in and creating level 1 characters, we do that quite often. In fact, I played a character to level 10 just over a week ago. And yes, I found some minor issues (mostly on New Trismus) that are in the next patch.

Not having a chat with someone inside to talk with and socialize is the final blow that makes them quit.
In the past (I don't know now) the newbie would also find completely cryptic NPCs and their contrived mechanics (one wants tokens, the other tickets, the other chess pieces, the other bird's tongues...) and completely useless directions about where to go.

Agreed, and the lore token references were fixed in the current patch on blight.

In the era where question marks and even highlighted maps (Warhammer Online quests) show them *clearly* where to go and what to do. When I played, the NPC told you: "the mob is somewhere in the southern world emisphere, now go fetch it".

That is not going to happen. Not while I am the lead designer. Sorry, but if you REQUIRE a marker to tell you how to explore the game world then you are playing the wrong game. In fact, you aren't really playing the game. You're just following directions and hitting buttons. And yes, I realize that WoW and EQ2 and LOTRO all have these "features", but that does not mean that they are a good thing.

[Duergos]

Amon,

Thank you. I know that this game is a labor of love for you and for Vitrium. For the few flaws there are many more things that are right.

Not that it matters all that much but very recently I decided to resub for 6 months.

Cheers

Duergos

[AmonGwareth]

Amon,

Thank you. I know that this game is a labor of love for you and for Vitrium. For the few flaws there are many more things that are right.

Not that it matters all that much but very recently I decided to resub for 6 months.

Cheers

Duergos

It is. And I want to apologize for my tone in the above posts. I love this game, I really do. And I want it to be great and polished. We try hard, harder than most people believe, to make this game good and to balance fixing bugs and adding new content.

I tend to get a little defensive about it, particularly when there are areas I know a lot of work went into and we saw extremely positive results from, being criticized for not being any good or sub-par.

For the record, prior to the release of the revamped tutorials our conversion rate of subscriptions was something like 10 or 15%. That is, 10 or 15% of people logging into the game stayed after their trial. After the tutorials, it jumped for a while up to close to 75 or 80% and then settled to around 50%. Which I believe is industry average.

Likely, the two biggest causes of players leaving the game IMHO is a) lack of people and b) they realize it isn't the type of game they thought it was.

Last thing I want to say is that we want to fix bugs or issues with the game. If you have them, either post about them in the Game Bugs section or submit a support ticket. Please.

[Velea]

I think this thread has far outlived any hope of being useful. Both Amon and I have read every post in it, but at this point it is simply a rehash of what has been said in the past, much of which is based on just that... the past.

If someone would care to make CONSTRUCTIVE and SPECIFIC suggestions (and new ones, not those that keep getting rehashed) on how to improve the new player experience especially, we always welcome the feedback, and frequently make changes based on that. But it's time to start a new thread with that in mind.

Oh, and I read Amon's post after I finished this... Our current "conversion rate" is considerably higher than 50%. This is something I watch closely, as does the boss, and we're both quite happy with where it's at, which is infact higher than "industry standard".