Draconic caster woes

[Mithras Shiningstorm]

Perhaps I'm blowing this out of proportion, being somewhat impatient and easily frustrated by nature. But simply put, dragon casters are ducks - we don't do enough damage in melee to be fighters, our healing simply doesn't make the cut to be a support class, and our spells certainly aren't hitting hard enough to solely rely on spells as a typical magus/caster type would. So what are we?

If this is indeed working as intended you could probably stop reading here, as only unintelligible rant-gibberish follows.

Our spell repertoire is limited to begin with, which I could deal with if the spells were a bit more powerful - even with all my training points placed in caster stats, power, focus and primal, I can all but two-shot a mob my level with Gold rage and silver strike - why? Yet my Prime Bolt can only, at best, take about a 12th of their hp - my AoE's being less of course.

From a lore perspective, Primal Magic is the essence of the Realm of the Prime, i.e. Istaria, right? So if it's the very life-force of the world...why does it pale in comparison to humanoid magic both in scope and effectiveness? Yes, yes, the humans and their fondness for magic have led them to great discoveries - but thinking further, wasn't it we dragons who took the place of the gods when they died during the age of the dragons? I'm not saying we should be better - I'm saying we should be equal yes?

Perhaps things will change as I'm able to get more techs applied to my spells - at the time of this post I'm level 35 adv/craft and only able to apply one tech to my spells - still crafting in the t2 spectrum. But the way things are going - it looks like a snowball's chance, if you know what I mean.

Leveling as a draconic caster seems a test of two things - timing your heals and kiting. I routinely get the tar beat out of me even when I face a mob 2-3 levels below me one on one. it's a rare occasion I see a spell hit for more then 80pts, and I frequently have to use refreshing breeze because, despite my high focus score - my other breeze spells can't keep up with the damage I'm taking - I'm lucky if they break even.

Allocating stats is a nightmare - since noone knows exactly what many of the skills do. If it's a case of RTFM, so be it, but first - would you kindly show me where the manual is? Seriously, after reading the in-game tutorial and speaking with older dragons I still can't get a definitive answer from either. So here's my understanding, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

Focus - Determines spell accuracy, serves as +healing, slightly increases +magicward
Power - Determines spell damage
Primal - Serves as a skill check for spell scribing/use

Primal is the thing I'm most confused on - apparently it gives more spell damage then power and increases accuracy more then focus? Pardon my french but wtf? Why even bother making those other stats if primal just does it all?

Yes, it might be easier going as a melee/lunus type - hell, even their RoP is considered easier. But I decided to play helian for a few reasons, the challenge, my character concept and their school of thought. I can certainly say I got the challenge in heaps and gobs, but there's a point in my eyes where its challenging and when it rings like a broken bell.

For all of those who are helian and did the climb to ancient 5 miles both ways in the snow during typhoon season I sincerely congratulate you - I now have a better idea of what you guys went through to get there and this is by no means my attempt to bash or belittle your accomplishments. It's just a series of annoyances that I wish to vent.

/rant

[Creme]

There's a very nice post on stats you can probably locate. It explains very nicely how skill and stats work and how they break down.

[Aywren]

I'm not sure if I can help much as I'm mega-melee dragon, but here's a few places I looked for information:

http://www.crimson-dawn.org/index.ph...trainingpoints

This thread starts talking about casters and points at about post #14, if you scroll down. There's some interesting information littered throughtout the thread, if you haven't read it already.

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=17358

I'll keep looking and see if I come up with anything. Hang in there, Mith! Things got a bit easier for me once I became an adult -- that may be true for you as well. The extra stat bonus can't hurt!

[Steelclaw]

Note: Faction is a philosophical difference and has nothing to do with fighting style. You can certainly have a Lunus caster or Helian melee fighter.

The distinction in terms of game mechanics between a dragon caster or melee fighter is very small: gear and TP allocation. Try to look at the "dragon game" as a having a single adventure class that relies upon both magic and melee, rather than having a single adventure class that is divided into magic or melee using factions. That model is much more in agreement with the current reality of the dragon adventure school. If you understand and agree with that, you'll see that limiting yourself to only one type of attack is effectively playing with a self-imposed handicap. In other words, you're taking the hard route and, well, expect it to be hard!

That being said, spell-based attacks are pretty powerful when used appropriately and with the proper techs and other gear. That's not to say that some of the individual spells couldn't use some tweaking. In general though, playing as a dragon biased toward using magical attacks does become more viable once you learn to play the character -- which involves learning when not to cast.

As for stats allocation, if you're trying to favor magical attacks, try starting with around 2-3 clicks per level into Primal and the rest distributed (however you feel fit) between Tooth and Claw, strength, power and dexterity. You can always reallocate TPs as you see fit as many times as you want, but limited to a certain rate (governed by the rate at which buyback points are replenished).

[Dracaena]

Dragons were give a wonderful boon sometime while I was asleep this last time. Primal Health. This is one primal dragon that has gleefully adapted use of it. Your breezes are heal over time, I have yet to see in any game a heal over time that will keep up totally with heavy combat damage if that is the only heal you are getting. Refreshing breeze comes close but that is why we have the long timer on reuse of it. I hold that one back for really tough fights and emergency use.

Have all three of your breeze spells on your hot bar so you always have one ready to cast. Hit your breeze when you pull, I like using a range teched grazing or relentless winds to pull. Be aware those spells are area effect and you don't tag more things then you meant to. Move your cast bar where you can see it and try not to clip your own spells by moving, tail whacking, or whatever. (I use the cast bar to time things, as screen animations can be lagging with what the server says is happening.) Spiked scales are a caster dragon's best friend, they will do more damage for you then a melee dragon.

And sad but true at top end (Dralnok's Doom) I have found I must fight hybrid. There isn't the luxury of time to tap dance with the myloc. I toss in the gold rage, silver strike and ravage between casts as with their high evasion skills, they can still kill you when they only have 50 health left.

The new dragon techs are wonderful, there are lower teir versions that can be made from those expert forms. You didn't say what shard you are on, if you are on Order look me up.

Training points have always been confusing to me. I have my primal maxed out and the other points are split between power and evasion. I know evasion for a dragon is poopoo'ed but those points have been there for years and I still think they help a little. Though my hatchling on Chaos is going a different route, splitting points between primal and tooth & claw and making him hybrid.

My scales all have primal but are a mix of power, armor, with a focus and health scale. When I learned I had to start making use of the gold rage I ended up with 3 scales tech'ed with tooth and claw so I wasn't seeing misses. I have the new dragon techs on wing, claw, and head scale so that makes my melee special attacks respectable.

Haven't had my caffine yet today so don't know what else I am forgetting that I should mention. If you are on Order, I will be happy to answer questions in game.


Dracaena

[Mithras Shiningstorm]

Thanks for the links Aywren, they're really helpful! Hard data makes more sense to me then someone just saying so, not that I don't believe people, but they usually don't go into that much detail as the tables do.

Steelclaw, your insights are refreshing - though I feel the urge to make some inane comments, so bear with me. The hybrid (using both melee and magic) idea makes sense, but what doesn't make sense to me is when I specialize in magic and still have to melee 3/4 of the time to kill something in good time so I don't get the everlovin'-tar beaten out of me. It wasn't so much a handicap as it was a test of flexibility..which appears to have all the give of a cinderblock, so yes - I'll probably end up having to respec for melee capabilities as well, since there's no magic version of gold rage or silver strike. The only time I end up casting is when all of my melee abilities are on CD or I'm surrounded by multiple mobs.

Dracaena, my pull sequence ends up being dragon's reach -> grazing winds -> GR -> SS -> Tailwhip -> primal health -> quickening breeze...toss in a few more spells and you pretty much have my rotation for one on one targets. Unfortunately I'm on Chaos shard, so I can't partake of your generous offer for help

One thing I notice increasingly is that everyone doesn't really mention using Focus at all - why? Talk of doubled or tripled scales does nothing for me - I can neither make them nor wear them at this point, and I can almost guarantee that by the time I reach ancient status the techs that everyone is raving about now will be of no use to me when I reach that point.

[Dracaena]

One thing, I don't know if you have the lv25 hatchling scales from Vladmordt. Those are a big help and better then what you can craft at t2. My hatchling on Chaos is lv28 and has both of those (helian and lunus versions).

I am playing him differently in that I change tactics and scales depending on what I am fighting. Beetles that are slash resistant, spiked scales and primal bolt. Undead casters, melee those things down quick, with the appropriate set of scales to go with the battle tactic. If you want to get together sometime I can log him in for a hunting trip.

The new dragon techs are useable by any level dragon. You only need expert crafter to learn the forms, any high level crafter can make the techs for you. They are different in that they create a drag and drop kit, so you could even make the scales yourself and just put the tech kit on them. They come in t1-t5.

Also too on your combat rotation, the reason I like the ranged tech'ed winds is that gives me a puller while dragon's reach is on cooldown and the mob is debuffed when he gets into bolt range. Then I can try to get a bolt in before he even reaches melee range. I also favor a crystal in my claw that will proc a dot on spellcast. Those are great fun when they dot the target with the grazing wind, thing is taking damage before even getting into bolt range. Though I am kinda nuts, I guess. I like doing mage battles with the undead out on satyr islands when I can get them one on one.


Dracaena

[Steelclaw]

Also too on your combat rotation, the reason I like the ranged tech'ed winds is that gives me a puller while dragon's reach is on cooldown and the mob is debuffed when he gets into bolt range.

Whoa! Be careful there. The * Winds debuffs are area of effect spells. You may wind up pulling much more than you anticipated. For single-target pulling, a range-teched Prime Bolt will work. Debuff the target once it has been isolated.

The hybrid (using both melee and magic) idea makes sense, but what doesn't make sense to me is when I specialize in magic and still have to melee 3/4 of the time to kill something in good time so I don't get the everlovin'-tar beaten out of me.

I think that is the nature of a hybrid school. At least in my experience, the difference between focusing on magic vs focusing on melee is whether you use standard attack (melee) or a repeating bolt spell. Some mobs have an insane amount of slash resist, so this isn't as pointless as it may initially seem. Regardless of your preferred attack method, you will have to resort to Gold Rage, Silver Strike and Ravage if you're in too far over your head.

I'll probably end up having to respec for melee capabilities as well, since there's no magic version of gold rage or silver strike.

I don't think Gold Rage is a good metric to judge other dragon attacks by. It's the most potent single-target attack available to dragons, and arguably, a bit too strong. (When you're 40 adv and are successfully soloing rating 60-75 mobs, you'll know what I'm talking about.) Think of Gold Rage as an exception, rather than the rule.

Instead, if you're not quite happy, focus on how the other abilities and spells can be tweaked or augmented to be potent enough to be 'fun', but be reasonable -- not as potent as Gold Rage.

[LOVWYRM]

Mithras,
you can ask 10 dragons about all this- and you`ll propably get 10 more or less different answers.
So here is my advice:
Do not try to concentrate your skills on Lunus or Helian, before you are lvl 50+.

Put at least 60% of your tp in t&c and primal (equal) and distribute the others in all other stats/skills (but not in health)
Wear amor scales with health and dragonbreath teched.

As a helian dragon has teeth and claws too, and can use dragonbreathes- why should he only use primal?^^

Ahh- and do not forget dex- its useful for both factions.

Or find out what works best for you

[Raptress]

Gear is important for casters. Definitely get those spells teched; I generally have things like Romp as priority one. Armor or health based scales will be best, as it takes casters a while to kill anything and, if you level the way I did, they take a lot of hits. They need the bulkiness. Consider raising your craft level to 90 to use T5, triple-teched scales, though understandably, many won't favor this option. xP

The thing I found about playing a caster is that the leveling style is different. Killing one even-leveled creature can take forever and have little pay-off. However.. casters have a lot of AoEs, two of them point-blank range. Spiked Scales gains damage from Power (or was it Primal? I forget, but it's one of the two). So, my strategy was to opt for mobs of a bit lower level, but to pull them ~3 at a time, pop Spiked Scales, and kill them all at once with AoEs. I also have Primal Health teched with Heal Recycle, meaning I can cast it more often, and usually start casting it at the beginning, on the tail ends of other spells, to keep my health as high as I can. They're taking damage from Spiked Scales anyway, often a LOT of damage, so the game is more staying alive rather than mowing things down as fast you can.

I'm not sure exactly how much the fact that I had a full T5 set at level 50 adventuring affected my experience, but I can say that the massive pulls of 15 or more mobs when I had both Shield of Gold (Adult damage-shield ability) and Refreshing Breeze up were some of the most fun I've yet had in this game, and I've been here a number of years.

[Aywren]

The thing I found about playing a caster is that the leveling style is different. Killing one even-leveled creature can take forever and have little pay-off. However.. casters have a lot of AoEs, two of them point-blank range. Spiked Scales gains damage from Power (or was it Primal? I forget, but it's one of the two). So, my strategy was to opt for mobs of a bit lower level, but to pull them ~3 at a time, pop Spiked Scales, and kill them all at once with AoEs. I also have Primal Health teched with Heal Recycle, meaning I can cast it more often, and usually start casting it at the beginning, on the tail ends of other spells, to keep my health as high as I can. They're taking damage from Spiked Scales anyway, often a LOT of damage, so the game is more staying alive rather than mowing things down as fast you can.

I'm not sure exactly how much the fact that I had a full T5 set at level 50 adventuring affected my experience, but I can say that the massive pulls of 15 or more mobs when I had both Shield of Gold (Adult damage-shield ability) and Refreshing Breeze up were some of the most fun I've yet had in this game, and I've been here a number of years.

Now THAT sounds like fun! *resists the urge to go and roll a caster dragon JUST to be able to do that* I need to level the one I have!

Maybe one day.

[Nambroth]

I don't think Gold Rage is a good metric to judge other dragon attacks by. It's the most potent single-target attack available to dragons, and arguably, a bit too strong. (When you're 40 adv and are successfully soloing rating 60-75 mobs, you'll know what I'm talking about.)

Holy cats, really?? I've played through 3 dragons now, two are heavy melee hitters, and I couldn't dream of soloing a level 60-75 mob when I was level 40adv! What am I doing wrong?

[LOVWYRM]

Neither could I Nam,
but its long ago. I did not have teched spells and used blighted scales
until lvl 100.
Maybe that is why.

[awdz]

Holy cats, really?? I've played through 3 dragons now, two are heavy melee hitters, and I couldn't dream of soloing a level 60-75 mob when I was level 40adv! What am I doing wrong?

Were you a level 100 crafter using t5 triple-teched scales & claw when 40 adv?

[Steelclaw]

Holy cats, really?? I've played through 3 dragons now, two are heavy melee hitters, and I couldn't dream of soloing a level 60-75 mob when I was level 40adv! What am I doing wrong?

As the saying goes: "Go fly a kite". In general, if you can do damage to a target faster than it heals itself, and you can heal yourself faster than you're damaged, then you will win... eventually. Gold Rage pretty much takes care of the first part for mobs that don't heal themselves. Good equipment, healing spells, and kiting will usually take care of the latter.

Note that I said "eventually". The battle might last long enough to use Refreshing Breeze two or three times.

While kiting a mob 20-30 levels above you is a very inefficient way of levelling (there's a maximum per-kill XP limit), you certainly have to wonder if that's an attempt that you should even be successful at.

Oh yeah, and as Awdz points out, T5 scales help.

[Dracaena]

Whoa! Be careful there. The * Winds debuffs are area of effect spells. You may wind up pulling much more than you anticipated. For single-target pulling, a range-teched Prime Bolt will work. Debuff the target once it has been isolated.

Have all three of your breeze spells on your hot bar so you always have one ready to cast. Hit your breeze when you pull, I like using a range teched grazing or relentless winds to pull. Be aware those spells are area effect and you don't tag more things then you meant to.

I had already mentioned this in my prior post.



But we are nit picking. Mithris, it is true that you will get as many different answers as the number of dragons you talk to when it comes to things like training points and fighting techniques. I have always played caster dragon and I find it tedious to stand there and try to swipe at things with my claw on my chaos hatchling. He is my experiment for trying to see what the tooth and claw dragons are so worked up about though I am ending up casting as that is more normal to me. I haven't played that hatchling lately as I was waiting for the t2 revamp so he could go exploring and leveling then. I would still be happy to log him in and go run around with you to help you get a better feel for killing things primal style. Let me know if you would like to get together sometime.


Dracaena

[Firebrand]

As a pure Dragon Spellcaster, I can tell you we are able to deal serious damages with our spells. Sure, our spells will never match Gold Rage, but I don't think something can anyway. If you want to be efficient with spells, you need to specialize.
I will quote myself as it hasn't changed much since I wrote it: http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...2&postcount=11

[LOVWYRM]

Thank you for posting that again, Firebrand.
I was searching for that, but could not find*blush*

[Steelclaw]

I had already mentioned this in my prior post.

Sorry about that. Indeed, you did.

Do you smell something?! I had a brainfart!

[Raeshlavik]

Since my return in July I've leveled a caster dragon to 41/50 and a melee dragon to 42/51, both with the same sorts of coin, time, and support - I'll agree that the caster was far harder to level.

The caster took a lot of gathering for specific techniques and a real dedication to keeping crafting levels ahead of adventure levels to remain viable, while the melee dragon just grabbed stuff off the local conny that was around his level and went out to beat things up.

Currently with the caster I have to hunt stuff at or below his level, watch mob pathing, manage cooldowns, and do a lot of kiting so it's a very active play style. On the melee dragon I hunt level 44-45 golems in pairs while chatting with folks in a couple of channels.

My current dragon is what I'll call a balance dragon; his points are spread evenly across casting, melee, and defense. So far he's doing surprisingly well.

Ultimately, in my perfect little world, I'd like to see the two dragon factions be just that, factions. Something akin to schools where you can learn from both and even master a few things, but the really awesome stuff is only available with membership. This way true Helian followers could have access to primal abilities that rival gold rage, but not have access to both and become scaly Kwisatz Haderach's.