Player progression and retention

[AamerKhan]

Istaria is an MMORPG.

And as such, is dependent upon keeping players playing as long as possible. In most games this is accomplished by careful control of experience gains by adjusting how much exp a player gets of mobs or quests.

The idea is of course to to keep the game fun, while slowing down progression so that players don't level too quickly and get bored and move on to other games. It can be very tricky to pull this off in any game. Istaria is even more tricky.

I am just going to only talk about adventure classes, since they depent on mob exp, quests and trophies to level. As a biped you can be any class you want, even all classes. Add in to that mix that dragons have only 1 adv class, but also use the same system of mob/quest/trophy to level, this becomes a most difficult thing to balance.

If you allow dragons to level too quickly, they reach the top, and soon tire of nothing else new to do. I have heard MANY dragons say this. On the other hand, Bipeds have 28 classes that they can take to 100, and very few players have less than 4 classes they are working on. These too use the same system as dragons. and there in lies the rub.

To make the game progress for dragons to keep them occupied, artificially slows Bipeds down to such a degree that most of the adventure only players get frustrated with the grind, and move on to other games. Craft centric players will not really mind too much, but that develops other issues... not really problems mind you, just issues.

Ok, so to quickly recap, since all players, dragon and biped alike, use the same system to level adventure, adjusting the drops to allow dragons to progress slower only leads to frustrations for bipeds, and leads towards a more craft centric biped player base as a natural consequence.

So, is there a solution to make everyone happy and NOT require a complete revamp of the game as it is? Looking back over 6+ years of game play, I personally cannot see one. However there are a few things that could be done with current game systems and technology that could allow for better retention of players and even attract more players try it out.

Why not simply even out the trophy drops across mobs so that folks can progress at what ever speed they wish?

Why not help players define themselves in more ways? Like the great start with all the new titles and abilities, continue by allowing for unique titles like back in the dryad event. In this way players can become famous by their actions.

Why not help acknowledge player efforts by creating a simple plaque that can be set outside a built structures like a banner or sign that has a list of the name of anyone that placed resources on it to help complete it.

These are NOT suggestions for the game but honest and humble questions to the team developing this game.

Time has proven that the type of player drawn to Istaria and the ones that stay with it, are not looking for an easy button game. They can handle grind and they are willing to stick with long processes to gain the rewards they enjoy. The fun they have comes from accomplishment in this living world where player actions make a difference.

Please return to the roots of the games and increase the fun by catering to the things that the players actually find enjoyable. If you do this, your only risk is that players will enjoy themselves better, complain less, and even tell their friends how much FUN they have here.

Food for thought...

[SentientSeeker]

Some of the quests in our game are specific to either bi-ped (or even bi-ped class) and dragon. Perhaps this is an area of differentiation which could be "tuned" more by the amount of experience awarded? Although, to really make an impact, I imagine more dragon/bi-ped/class specific quests would need to be written/coded/tested.

Just my 2 coppers,
Sent

[Azure]

Well I have played for a long time on and off due mostly because I only play a dragon as I have no desire to play just another weapon wielding, spell casting character. As such I tend to run out of things to do every so often. These are great times for me to take a break and explore other alternatives in solo games and hobbies.

I do find dragons are pretty much on the short end of the stick when you think about total content that is tied with the treadmill of progress which keeps (majority) people playing longer. These treadmills are somewhat important in a MMORPG life cycle. Without the carrot and stick you end up with the barriers of boredom. Other games tend to prevent this by putting out new expansions every 6-12 months, or throw out mini expansions in-between longer waits.

Personally I'd like to see more classes for dragons, this in itself would be one of the things that could grab my attention for a long period of time. But this takes time and money to implement so not holding my breath and I wouldn't want the standard bi-ped classes thrown over the fence which would just make them bland. The other is more refined content for high level players. As I said before I will not be rolling an alt and I do want to do more new things with my online persona in Istaria.

[velveeta]

Why not help acknowledge player efforts by creating a simple plaque that can be set outside a built structures like a banner or sign that has a list of the name of anyone that placed resources on it to help complete it.

love this idea and in fact, i lobbied heavily to have the sslanis coast lighthouse on blight renamed for me when i built it on my own -
however, i was informed that such things are not possible, as it is not possible to post such info on just one shard - example, the lighthouse could not be renamed on blight without renaming it on the live shards too, and that is just not gonna happen.....

[Frith-Rae]

Well I have played for a long time on and off due mostly because I only play a dragon as I have no desire to play just another weapon wielding, spell casting character. As such I tend to run out of things to do every so often. These are great times for me to take a break and explore other alternatives in solo games and hobbies.

I do find dragons are pretty much on the short end of the stick when you think about total content that is tied with the treadmill of progress which keeps (majority) people playing longer. These treadmills are somewhat important in a MMORPG life cycle. Without the carrot and stick you end up with the barriers of boredom. Other games tend to prevent this by putting out new expansions every 6-12 months, or throw out mini expansions in-between longer waits.

... As I said before I will not be rolling an alt and I do want to do more new things with my online persona in Istaria.

But that's just it -

For those players willing to roll an alt - then the dragon "limitation" of one school isn't a limit. For those not willing to roll an alt - why would playing through the same content with a different school be any more sub-increasing; or be different than rolling a biped alt?

To me - hitting 100 on a dragon and "running out of things to do" also applies to any biped hitting 100 (realistically). I mean I'm level 90 as my dragon and have no motivation to hit 100 - I ran out of stuff I felt like doing (with the fighting bugs irkin me off to stop adventuring) a while ago and I have no *strong* motivaiton to *hurry up to the dungeon* cuz it ain't goin anywhere.

Yes, the biped can start over and start grinding on those exact same mobs for another school - but this to me is what you referred to as "artifically slowing" or "extending' the life of the game. If grind is killing the game for you - dragon or biped multi-class isn't going to solve the problem. Its grind with more abilities - wee? Its still grinding the same mobs, with the same trophies, you just did 100 levels of already.

There was a time when dragons (or I guess everyone) had to grind out wolves to get past level 70. So for thirty levels you ground out wolves day in and day out - so to do that for a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th and 5th and 28th school - Id on't see what the difference is than someone who would roll 8 alts in WoW (or any other game).

If you're an alt player, then that's going to work. If you're not - it won't matter. You either don't mind the grind or you do.

They could add as many dragon schools as they want - but if a player doens't want to grind out the same thing; its irelevant.

And someoen hitting level 100 with "nothing left to do" is that player who doesn't want to continue to do the same grind they've done for 100 levels. So adding in a class would only take it so far as far as "extending the life."

And those maxxers who maxx out everything would still hit that point - just like we have dragons who are 100/100/100 and maxxed hoard. They either have already found their reason to keep subbing or they're gonna quit. Yes, for some it would take longer and they'd shoot for that fourth 100 - but I think for a lot of players the idea of ANOTHER round of grind wouldn't help the game's longevity.

Variety helps with that; not the same content x28.

Now, more refined content - new content - new quests - NEW mobs (not just one of 25 beetles with a new skin or golem with a different color) - good community - that keeps players coming back.

Fluff keeps players playing - as you said - titles and such. It very much keeps players playing. Wether its a one-time-battle-shot title or a title from mind-numbing grind. People wants it!

And yea the names of players who contributed to craft events or any events memorialized somehow in game would be awesome; though without regularity I don't know if it would "keep" someone in game or not.

But to me slowing down dragon leveling (or anything of that nature to match up the time spent level a x4 multiclass human) would help nothing at all. If leveling is painful people would quit just as much, just before they got to 100. Just like we have the issue now - the grind kills it; regardless of level. (I know you weren't really suggesting this but I wanted to throw that in there - lol).

And to me - there is no attraction for dragon multiclassing only because I can't get my first dragon to 100 due to the already burned-out adventure grind on the same things over and over again COUPLED with the engine issues for adventurers. I think we have far, far more dragons quit before 100 than after - due to those reasons. (Who aren't craft oriented)

[Akrion]

Yes, the biped can start over and start grinding on those exact same mobs for another school - but this to me is what you referred to as "artifically slowing" or "extending' the life of the game. If grind is killing the game for you - dragon or biped multi-class isn't going to solve the problem. Its grind with more abilities - wee? Its still grinding the same mobs, with the same trophies, you just did 100 levels of already.

Very much 'Yes' to you Frith. The only reason why my own Biped is multiclassed is so he can be useful in combat. There's a little more to it than I think most realize when we talk about Bipeds being able to multiclass when Dragon's can't.. A level 100 pure melee Dragon will easily out-match any (single) level 100 Biped class. A Biped needs to Multiclass at least 3 or 4 times just to match a Melee Dragon. (Pure caster Dragons need so much help though D: )

As for the rest you said Frith, I also agree. What we need are different things to do, not for the same thing we've been doing to take longer to accomplish.

[AamerKhan]

And again, we ask for things they have said the technology cannot do, or the manpower for it does not exist. New classes for dragons I cannot see without a full rewrite of the games code.

New quests we are getting and that is totally step in the right direction. New skills as well give things to shoot for. New titles have obviously been a boon since MANY players are sporting them.

I am a multi-classed biped main with 5 lvl 100 classes and another to 50, working on getting master craftsman, with 4 alts I play as well. I have more than enough to do to keep me occupied, but merely being occupied is just not enough for many players.

So if we look at what players actually spend their time on, the things they are willing to grind for and obtain, then we see what can realistically be accomplished with the current game. These are the things that need to be continuously enhanced.

Again, this is NOT a suggestion thread. It is a series of questions on why those things we like to do cannot be enhanced. If folks love to loot and farm trophies till they have 28 lvl 100 classes on their biped, what is the harm in letting them do so? Why lower the drop rate? was it to make an already frustrating situation even worse?

[Akrion]

New classes for dragons I cannot see without a full rewrite of the games code.

Then explain how classes such as Dragon bloodmage existed in Beta.

[Azure]

Actually I played a dragon Chaos Warrior in beta, the engine does support it with modifications of course. Like I said, for me it would hold my interest to have a new dragon class with new quests geared towards it just like the other dragon class has, it would not be a grind if the quests where such that it followed a story with progress every few levels. There are many ways to tackle this as there are people on the planet earth, its just what is reasonable that is the problem.

And as I said before treadmills exist in all MMORPGs for a reason, to keep players engaged. Not everyone will hit max level though even players in EQ2 and WoW have their odd balls who never make it to max

[Valornyx]

Then explain how classes such as Dragon bloodmage existed in Beta.

And explain to me how concepts such as angels existed .. and explain to me why there is no PVP .. and explain .. oh - wait a second .. none of this stuff made it live.

Yes - there is an infinite possibility curve as to what could be done.. the game engine really is capable of amazing things not yet realized .. there are an infinite number of new classes and races that could be implemented .. an infinite number of quests and progressions that could happen .. however..

YEARS ago it was decided that dragons should not simply mirror biped classes but rather be an individual / specific / differentiated species within Istaria ..

It is easy to recurse and say yes - in beta there were Dragon bezerkers - so it is possible - but the point is beta is for working out what works and what does not .. it was decided that it was not in the interest of the game to simply replicate all the biped classes for dragons..

Who decided that? - I don't know - and will never find out .. but it is irrelevant..

For better or for worse at that time a decision was made to put a schism between the skill sets of bipeds and dragons..

And in doing so - Istaria (Horizons) became two games - albeit linked ones .. the dragon experience and the biped one..

In the following years - dragons developed some new skills (mostly in the DLSH field) but also in others ..

At the same time .. bipeds developed..

Now - I'm not suggesting that the development of dragons is completed, or that they would not benefit from some more abilities and skill sets et al ..

However .. I do get tired of the people that love to drag ancient and dead history - out of the long-distant past and try to resurrect it as something that would be cool to do (honestly - not because they want to be a dragon-paladin but simply because they want to find some more things to do - and don't want to play their bipeds).

BRING BACK PVP!!! BRING BACK ANGELS AND DEMONS!!! BRING BACK LAMURIANS!!! ..

oh wait - none of these things ever became part of the game.

Concept / alpha / and beta are for sorting out what works and what doesn't .. [years ago] it was decided that dragons would not be mages / bloodmages / wizards / or confectioners..

How about we continue to live in the world that is - instead of the world that was decided would be not.

Barrack for new dragon classes that the devs may support as fitting within the Istaria that is - rather than the concept that never was.

Give the dev's something that they can use and will move the game forward, rather than referring to long distant [removed] ideas, and we're going somewhere - rather than revisiting planets we know do not have life.

[Frith-Rae]

[quote=AamerKhan;244222]And again, we ask for things they have said the technology cannot do, or the manpower for it does not exist. New classes for dragons I cannot see without a full rewrite of the games code.
[quote]

Who's we? I did not ask for that. I was echoing some of your suggestions, but not that one. I'm actaully against new classes, as I see it as pointless with the same grind.

New quests we are getting and that is totally step in the right direction. New skills as well give things to shoot for. New titles have obviously been a boon since MANY players are sporting them.

Yes! Quested skills too. Those are good .

Again, this is NOT a suggestion thread. It is a series of questions on why those things we like to do cannot be enhanced. If folks love to loot and farm trophies till they have 28 lvl 100 classes on their biped, what is the harm in letting them do so? Why lower the drop rate? was it to make an already frustrating situation even worse?

I have no beef with anyone who wants to level anyway they want. Was the trophy level lowered in the last patch? I have no clue as I rarely hunt anymore. SO I wasn't sure where these last two statements were coming from - as noone suggested that in the thread . If the trophy drop was lowered, I agree, that makes no sense given the current "state of leveling" in the game.

[Akrion]

And explain to me how concepts such as angels existed .. and explain to me why there is no PVP .. and explain .. oh - wait a second .. none of this stuff made it live.

*As well as everything else*

Awesome job at completely missing my entire point there.

AamerKhan said:
New classes for dragons I cannot see without a full rewrite of the games code.

And I was pointing out the fact that they existed before, they would not require a "full rewrite" of the games code.

Nowhere in my post did I even hint at asking "Why are they not in the game now?" or bringing up ancient or dead history. I don't even want something like a bloodmage dragon to exist to be honest. But I'm not even going to get into the rest of your post with you, because you some how managed to pull your entire post in response to something that didn't even exist.

You talk about how you hate people bringing up ancient history, well congrats at doing exactly that. Again, I was only trying to point out that it would not require a complete rewrite of the games code because they existed in the past.

[Velea]

Closing thread because it has deteriorated into finger pointing and people just going after one another...