ATTN DEVS: Review on monks/disciples and the problems we face. Please read!
A Review and Dissertation on Monks/Disciples and the problems they face.
Forward:
This is a very important posting, that needs to be seen... not just by the Horizons community, but the developers at AE as well.
This post is intended to address major issues that not only affect the monk school, but all disciple schools as well... including the Ice Disciple, Flame Disciple, Storm Disciple, and Spirit Disciple classes. While this post may fit more in the monk boards, if it is moved there it most likely will be overlooked by the developers and the community.
To the mods: Please do NOT move this from the general boards. These issues NEED TO BE SEEN AND ADDRESSED!!! Too many times have those few who play monks/disciples written up posts begging for these issues to be seen and looked at, and too many times have such posts been moved to unvisited and unknown forums, where they rot and are never seen again. Most of us who play monks and disciples feel that we are bast*rd children... largely ignored and uncared about. We have waited patiently while many other players in more poplular classes... including a certain race, have posted time and time again... many times in anger and flustration, and their issues are addressed, while our posts are moved and largely ignored. We have put up with this for 9 months, and time and time again, are promised in private chats, or on the support site, or in confidence in IRC that these issues will be looked into... and time and time again nothing is ever done. We watched a once proud community of monks and disciples diminish now to 5 or 6 players on peak times... and we have waited patiently and silently while dragons... with a majority of players, call on AE to fix glaring problems... proving that the squeaky wheels do get the grease first.
Moderators, Please give us a chance... ONE CHANCE... to be heard. Is that too much to ask for?
Monks and Disciples, their role in Horizons:
Monks and Disciples are melee classes. We do not deal as much damage when comparing a single hit or strike against someone using a sword or axe. However, we are supposed to make up for our low damage hits in our speed... the speed in which we punch and land blows.
Monks and Disciples wear hide and leather armor. Hide and leather is weak compared to metal armor, and when we get hit, we do feel it. However. our evasion allows us to dodge hits, allowing monks and disciples to even play the roll of the tank if needed.
In Horizons, the Disciples are a new and innovative idea that breaks free from the standard monk-like classes seen in other games. Disciples have very unique qualities and traits, and each disciple school caters to a different style of gameplay.
If you want to be the damage dealer... throwing punches stronger than anyone... and you feel the the best defense is putting down your foe as fast as possible, regardless of lower evasion... and enjoy casting the flame line of spells, then Flame Disciple is a good path to take.
If you like to stun your foes, preventing them from hitting you while you punch them into submission... and also enjoy casting the nature line of spells, incliding Dark Cyclone, heals, and the ability to resurrect, then the path of the Storm Disciple may be the path you wish to choose.
If you wish to do damage that bypasses armor entirely... going straight for the soul, and tapping into the life energy of your enemies, drawing into that pool to heal yourself... and also wish to cast spells from the spirit line, as well as heal and resurrect, then the path of the Spirit Disciple may be to your liking.
If you don't mind doing the weakest damage, but like the idea of slowing your enemies down with the element of Ice and Cold... punching them to their death while they are frozen... and enjoy casting ice-based spells, including ice shackles... which help with mob control, then the path of the Ice Disciple may be to your fancy.
If you wish though not to worry about studying other elements, but instead focus fully on your form and technique... studying more on the art of dodging and evading, and improving your dexterity and armor use... the the path that all other paths sprout forth from, the path of the Fist... the pure monk, may be your desired way of travel.
It looks good on paper... BUT..........
Yes, Theory does not always work out in practice... and sadly, this is where Horizons fails for the monks and disciples. The ideas are sound and great, but in practice are lacking. It is NOT all bad, and certainly there is no need to throw away what is already there. The foundation has been laid, but it must be built upon.
Monks and disciples were added into the game fairly late in beta, and because of the lack of testing and planning, the monk and disciple classes share the same issues that the battlemage school had when the game was first shipped back in December. A lot of our unique abilities either don't work or are totally useless and not worth the space they take up on the hotkey bar. Class descriptions are misleading. A fine example of this is the above description of the Spirit Disciple doing ethereal damage. They don't. The only attack they get that does ethereal damage is spirit punch and that ability does less damage than a normal punch. The spirit punch ability is known not to work and has been on the 'known issues list' on support.istaria.com for months now.
Another example of a broken and useless ability is "Fire Storm". This is the semi-epic spell that Flame Disciples get at level 90. When I read the description on this ability, I was thinking that this spell would 'open up the heavens and rain fire down upon my foes'. When I first cast this spell, it was a major disappointment. It is a beta Tier I mage spell that the developers didn't even get to finish the special effects for. You click the button and instantly things take damage. There is no circle of fire appearing around your character as if he is casting a spell, and there is no darkening of the sky or fireballs falling down, like there is with "Burning Sky". You click, things take damage, and you are done. Furthermore, the damage is miniscule... Damage to creatures at level 100 is around 40 to 80 damage. The spell is supposed to be a AOE, but often hits only the creature you are targeting.
While a lot of our abilities do not work, our normal punches and chain attacks do. Pre-merge, if you could get past level 55, you could hold your own in a fight just by using your basic attack. However post merge, Artifact Entertainment has increased the damage and evasion of mobs, in an attempt to 'beef them up'. A lot of this is to cut down on the number of people that complain that the game is too easy. We have all heard a reaver or even a paladin say "I can solo things 10 to 25 levels above me". Even after the merger and the changes made to mobs to beef them up, I still hear people say that.
Unfortunately, while the game may have been improved to make things more difficult against the classes that were 'overbalanced', the monks and disciples have been seriously set back. What things which we could barely solo at our own rating now kill us easily, leaving many of us to have to level on creatures 5, 10, even 25 levels below our rating. Monsters have been improved dexterity-wise, and had evasion added. Pre-merge, we were fairly balanced, but now things are very difficult.
Below are examples of some of the faults that lies with monks and disciples.
Chapter 1 -- Damage:
"Monks and Disciples do not do that much damage per hit... but they make up for it in the speed which they hit." -Jeremy Statz, previous AE employee
It's true... Monks and Disciples do not do absolutely incredible damage. You will never see a pure monk or pure disciple do a 500 damage critical strike with their fists alone... and if you want to see 900 damage cleaves, go elsewhere.
Even still, the damage output of a monk and disciple is very weak.
Monks only get 6 points in Strength per level. If you want any more, you are forced to multiclass another school. Warriors get 10 in strength I believe and so do berserkers. However, to level another adventure school alongside monk or a disciple school gives us a higher rating. A higher rating for a monk or disciple can very seriously hinder them for their entire life. It can kill any chance of soloing for experience, and make one totally dependent on grouping... so dependent that one may have no choice but to 'leach' exp.
The alternative to this is to level a craft school that gets better strength. Many monks and disciples, including myself, have leveled fitter for the +10 in strength they get per level.
Even still, while an extra 100 or 200 points in Strength makes a very noticable difference to a melee class like a Paladin, it does not affect monks and disciples the same way. However, our damage sucks to begin with, and if anyone wants to change that, they HAVE to level fitter or another school.
In the words of a fellow spirit disciple: "I do find serious fault in that fact that we are forced into crafting in order to improve ourselves so that we can solo or be a viable asset in a group."
For those starting out as new monks and disciples, they find their damage doesn't just suck... it blows major donkey b*lls. The early levels are extremely difficult. Soloing is next to impossible, and young monks and disciples are dependent on grouping. Evasion is extremely poor, and the poor armor means that when you get hit, you feel it. Your speed of your punches is agonizingly slow and when you do hit, the damage you do is miniscule.
The damage increases... but not by very much. Young monks and disciples feel they suck, up until about level 55 or level 60. It is at these levels that the damage output starts to swing upward, and a monk/disciple begins to realize that.
As an example, I've made the graph below to illustrate what I am talking about:
Special Note: The above graph, while based on actual combat experience I have had, along with the input and insight of many other monks and disciples on Order, is not absolutely 100% accurate. I made it to try and show what we have experienced while adventuring. It would take a lot of work to plot a line graph based on actual DPS seen in-game, and to make one perfectly accurate would take a lot of time, and would require the help of many adventurers in many schools in a controlled combat enviroment. Lots of help and lots of data would need to be collected. Still, I have tried very hard to accurately display what I felt is close to being accurate, based on my own personal experiences and the feedback of others.
Some explinations first:[*]Level: Level of the adventurer[*]Damage per second: An average of the total damage, in seconds, that players do to enemies.[*]Light blue line: This is an average of DPS that a weapon based melee class has. It might be what a paladin or a warrior may do. Some common sense is needed here for understanding. A cleric or healer's damage output, in DPS, will obviously fall lower than this line, while the DPS a berserker or reaver may do may be plotted higher than this line.[*]Dark blue line: Starting at level 60, this takes into account melee classes that use level 60 weapons (cobalt). This is plotted to illustrate how the damage of level 100 monks or disciples fair against a lvl 100 warrior using a cobalt weapon. If you notice, there is a curve in this line and the DPS of cobalt weapons has a 'falloff'.[*]Dotted blue line: This plots the progression in DPS when Mithril based weapons are taken into account.[*]Red line: The Flame Disciple is the damage dealer of the monks and disciples, doing anywhere from 30 to 60 more damage than other monks/disciples per hit. Their DPS is obviously higher than other disciples or monks because of this[*]Orange line: The DPS of the other monks and disciple schools.[/list]
Things to take into account: When making this graph, I took into account the adjustments that were made to monsters after the recent merger. I thought about doing a graph to illustrate the pre-merge situation. Indeed, before the monsters were adjusted, monks and disciples DPS was a lot closer to a level 100 warrior using a cobalt weapon. Post-merger, the gap has widened extensively. Still, pre-merger is in the past, and I'm trying to cover more on what monks and disciples are dealing with now.
Post-merger, the DPS gap between monks/disciples and other melee schools has been brought even lower now, to where it falls below even cobalt weapons. While our damage is somewhat the same as it was pre-merger per hit, monsters now have better evasion and dexterity, causing us to miss more. Even with our dexterity being very high, monks/disciples are not able to cope with the changes in monster evasion. The bottom line is this: we are hitting less and less now, causing our DPS to fall much lower than other melee classes.
"So why is DPS such a big deal, especially when comparing it to other meleee classes like warriors or paladins?"
Well, it's actually very simple. Most players that play a MMO like Horizons play certain classes cause they want to feel useful, either soloing or in a group. Much of what monks and disciples state in the descriptions is that we may not hit as hard, but we hit faster, and in the end, our DPS is comparable to other melee classes. Right now, that's not true. Not only do our punches suck, but the overall DPS falls much lower than other melee classes. This is rather demoralizing to anyone playing monks or disciples, and is one of the major factors as to why there are not many monks or disciples on servers.
I have trained probably as many as 25 to 30 monks and disciples. As one of but two or three level 100 disciples on spirit, I was approached by a lot of people with questions regarding not only my own class, but all of the monks/disciple schools. I had a hand in teaching many players how to be a 'good monk', but the amount of work necessary and the fact that it is the hardest class to level (without multiclassing considered), coupled with the fact that your damage, evasion, and delay is poor until about level 55, is a major deterrent... especially to casual players and people who are not fortunate to devote all their time to the game. Of those I taught or helped on Spirit, only one student, Tigris, still plays as a disciple.
I hope that this helps illustrate the damage issues that monks and disciples face. Our damage sucks in the beginning, not only cause we hit for much less damage, but also because our delay is horrible. The delay gets much less past 50, and with an increase to our damage along side that... our DPS swings upward... but still, at level 100, it was really only semi-comparable to a basic melee class with a cobalt (level 60ish) weapon. However, that was pre-merge, and things are a lot different now. With recent changes, our overall DPS falls below the DPS that can be done with cobalt weapons... and if you take into account what mithril weapons can do, our damage simply sucks.
Chapter 2 -- Our ability to hit our foes:
Because of our low damage output, we are dependent on our ability to land hits. Every hit that is missed hinders us severely in combat. It quickly lowers our DPS, and in a combat situation where we are soloing, will bring death.
Post merge, the evasion of mobs have been given a significant boost, causing a major imbalance for monks and disciples. In order to counteract this, monks and disciples have to pour most or all of their training points into unarmed and evasion, as well as get fully teched out armor with the unarmed tech. We have to do this throughout our lives if we want to come out of a fight still alive.
As an example: As a level 100 flame disciple against level 60-70 shadow spiders, I can attack with Multistrike IV... and 3, or 4 of those multistrikes miss. I have 10 chain attacks, and I use them, and anywhere from 20% to even 75% of those chains fail to hit. This is, however... with cargos on. Still, I do have a set of Plat jewelry teched with Health III, Unarmed III, and Dex III, and all my training points are spent evenly into unarmed and evasion.
Now, if I put on my set of fully teched Reinforced Leather armor, I can take on four of them. Still, I should be able to take on one, or even two level 60 Shadow Spider as a level 100 Flame Disciple, even in cargos, and not have to worry if all my specials are reset and if I have to use my Saris Sprints to run away.
This is a very good example how we are lacking in dexterity... when you have to have an extra +90 points of Dexterity and unarmed (( 6 pieces of armor/jewelry teched with Dexterity III and Unarmed III)) as a level 100 disciple or monk, and that is on top of training points properly placed into unarmed... just so you can hit 90% of the time on a mob that is 30-40 levels below you, something is badly unbalanced.
Chapter 3 -- Evasion, and our ability to dodge hits:
We have weak armor, but a monk and disciple knows that what can't hit you doesn't hurt you.
Sadly, though... our dexterity and evasion is very lacking now post-merger.
Again, drawing on the Shadow Spider example... While these Shadow Spiders are able to evade a lot of my hits, I don't seem able to evade many of theirs. While they aren't hitting me all the time, even hitting me 40% of the time still hurts, because I am wearing leather armor. The shadow spiders, accordning to my "Gnomish Horizons Log Parser" hit me approx 63% of the time.
With an evasion over 1100 current, and dexterity over 1100... and that is without fully teched armor, having them hit me 63% when they are 30-40 levels below me is... frustrating.... to say the least.
Even more flustrating when I'm out at the silk field and I see a level 80 healer take on three easily in cargos... and I can barely take on two.
Again, putting on my fully teched Reinforced Leather armor... and having an extra +90 points added to my dexterity... Shadow spiders and breeders rarely land a hit on me. It is still distressing that +90 points makes that much of a difference to a level 100 monk or disciple against level 60-70ish mobs.
The example of the Shadow Spiders is but one of many examples I can write up, but the same thing is very common... As a level 100 monk or disciple, is it logical to take on a creature 30 to 40 levels below us without having to put on TECHED gear so that we can evade their attacks?
It is even worse when we actually take on monsters equal to our level. I can barely solo a level 100 a level 100 Mithril Golem (the standard, not the boulder types), and that is fully suited up... I went out hunting, and had to literally unlearn things I trained in and put all my training points into unarmed and Evasion... just so I could hit and dodge a level 90-100 mithril golem and survive. Even with all my teched gear and training points spent, I easily get owned by Nazguk Ogre and their pigmy companions. This is not really balanced out.
Chapter 4 -- Percentile based buffs (Alacrity)
One thing that does affect our DPS against other melee schools is Gift of Alacrity. It's true that Alacrity is one of the most powerful gifts in the game, and Alac is a monk and disciples best friend. However, Alacrity uses a percentage modifier. The percentages are -5% for Alac I, -10% for Alac II, -15% for Alac III, -20% for Alac IV, and -25% for Alacrity V.
Being percent based, something with a longer delay is going to receive more benefits from a negative percentage adjustment than something with a shorter delay.
As an example, a fine cobalt large axe has a delay of 45. If Alacrity V is used, the delay is adjusted to 33.75 with a difference of 11.25
Same with a fine cobalt bastard sword. This sword has a delay of 41. Cast Alacrity V and the delay is adjusted to 30.75 with a difference of 10.25
Now, compare that to a set of reinforced hide handwraps (level 70, same as the above two weapons). Reinforced hide handwraps have a delay of 22. After Alacrity V is cast, the delay is reduced by 5.5 and is then at a final delay of 16.5
While the handwraps are still faster than the melee weapons, the greater the delay from these weapons give them a greater advantage when using Alacrity. Because the damage these weapons do is so great comparted to the handwraps, the greater reduction in delay in turn increases the DPS that melee schools have and further widens the DPS gap between Melee classes and monks/disciples.
Chapter 5 -- Percentile based special attacks
The same thing applies to percentile based special attacks. The larger the number, the more impact a percentage is going to have on it.
Critical strike and coordinated strike are the only two attacks monks and disciples get that are percentile based. Lets focus on the big one: "Critical Strike V"
Critical Strike V does 300% more damage, and on top of that it does an extra 120% in blue stance.
For a paladin who has multiclassed or taken fitter to 100 for the 10 levels in strength, and can do 150 to 200 damage per swing, one can do an average of 450 to 600 damage with CSV, and that is not counting blue stance, power style, nature's fury, or even boars rage.
I was witness to a level 100 paladin, with a rating of 103, take on the named Yew Treant on Saritova Island. With blue stance, natures fury, power style, and boars rage... this paladin did over 2050 damage with his critical strike.
For a monk who does on average 60 to 80 damage per swing, the percentage works againsts us, as it is a lower number. On average, a monk/disciple's critical strike is around 180 to 240 without any special stances or abilities. I was loaned a boars hide mask, and only that time that I used it did my critical strike break 500.
Going back to what I was talking about earlier in regards to our damage being on the lowest end of the scale and how that can be majorly depressing... Again, not ever seeing your critical strike go above 250 or 280... then watch a paladin, NOT a reaver or a berserker, but a paladin do a critical strike that does a little over 2050 in total damage makes you want to throw away the towel.
Conclusions:
Multiclassing is the only real hope for anyone playing monks or disciples. this is not very well known, and because the in-game class descriptions are a bit misleading, I have seen so many people try playing a monk or disciple, and then throw Horizons in the trashbin out of sheer flustration. The last protege I helped no longer plays as well, and she really tried hard... even writing up a very good dissertation on the Ice disciples on the old Tazoon message boards. She was the only Ice Disciple that I knew, and now the class is pretty much a dead class that no one plays... much like Flame Disciples, if not for the fact that I do play one.
The monk/disciple schools are very tempting to newer players, and I'm finding out too that a lot of casual players are also drawn to the class. With the multitude of problems, and only a few which I have just scratched the surface within this article, is it no wonder why there are so few monks and disciples on the servers today?
Dragons have always had the advantage of having a large and very vocal community. In turn, they have been able to get a lot of their issues addressed. It may not be all of them, but a good majority of them have been seen to because of the great efforts of those players.
Those of us who still play monks or disciples feel the same way about our schools... but we lack in numbers what dragons and other players have. It's thus that I am humbly asking for a showing of support for a review of the monk and disciple schools.
We've waited for 9 months now AE... Handwraps have helped address one of our major issues, but that's one of many many more in a long list of bugs and broken abilities. Isn't it about time that monks/disciples got some love?
Many thanks to the Monk/Disciple community, for their assistance and help in writing the above review, including but not limited to the following people: Tigris, Zodias (evilkarl), Kierna, Starspot, aceracer24, Iago, Jazeera, and many others!
-Menkure Salitis
Sifu, Flame Disciple
Originally Posted by HAG
