See, this is why we _needed_ Nadia....

[Akrion]

The prob is more, that there are not enough enthusiastic hunters.

This is unfortunately because there's absolutely no use for money in Istaria. The biggest form of trade in Istaria is the trading of hard to get or now impossible to get items for other hard to get / impossible items / work. Right now, there's not much difference between someone that has 30g, someone that has 300g and someone that has 3000g other than a number.

The idea behind removing Nadia makes sense, as it puts more economy on the players. Unfortunately the game needs a working economy before a transition to an player run economy can effectively be made. All I see getting rid of Nadia did was get rid of the market for hunters to undercut Nadia (As in, players had a choice to pay Nadia's high prices or get a hunter to do it for cheaper).

Devs: An entirely player-run economy can work but it can't simply happen by getting rid of almost all NPC based economy up front.

Eve Online is an example I can bring up for an economy sustained entirely by the players - From the point where the game launched until atleast a year after launch the economy was almost entirely NPC run. Players had reason to work for money, because stuff was there to buy. However, Builders found their place in the economy by being able to undercut the NPC prices by a fairly large amount. And Miners found their place in the economy by being able to make more money selling to the builders than to NPCs.

Eventually, and gradually, the NPC side of the economy went away and the economy was taken over entirely by the players.

Unfortunately, I don't see Istaria having enough players to fully accomplish this, but I can see it being done to a fair extent. However, I don't see it being done by putting the economy entirely on the players first. There needs to be a strong NPC run economy first. Which is why I think getting rid of Nadia was a step in the wrong direction.

Nadia gave players a reason to want to turn to a hunter, because they could get their comps for lower prices. The problem I see was with hunters not having anything to use that money for, and thus no reason to do that work. Now there's way more need for hunters, but there was no change to having any use for the money gained. So the economy is worse off.

I have a suggestion that could likely help the whole situation, though I don't think you would like it. :P

Bring NPCs in that will sell just about everything that players can make and put them next to the consigners. (Spells, construction materials, crafting materials, enchanting comps, etc. of all tiers) this will give players reason to make money, because they'll have a lot to spend it on. Ofcourse, now you have the problem of why people would bother crafting any of it to sell. Well, like with Nadia, you'll want to make the prices rather high so that players will see that it could be -them- making money and not the NPC by undercutting the NPC.

This will be the beginning of your economy, and as you go you could build on the economy -With- the NPCs. For example: NPCs could sell crafted, unteched spells. If you could make already crafted (and scribed) spells techable, that would give players a unique market for offering people teched spells that had already bought from the NPC.

It's far from perfect, more would have to be expanded on, but I feel that players need NPCs to 'compete' with, and NPCs to use their hard earned money to buy stuff from.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Right now, there's not much difference between someone that has 30g, someone that has 300g and someone that has 3000g other than a number.

Except for those who need to upgrade the vault to X, and need 3G and 500 S.

[Shian]

Except for those who need to upgrade the vault to X, and need 3G and 500 S.

Player 1 has 30 gold, still has common vaults.
Player 2 has 30 gold, but is now down to 3 because they have vault X on all characters.

Both players still function without a need for coin because there's nothing else in the game money is used for besides portal fees. So long as your number is above what your portal fees amount to, there's no point to having it.

Money is viewed as useless plain and simple. Because it's viewed as useless, players don't aspire to make any of it, hence the problem we're in now where players don't want to hunt for money. In the end, It's just a meaningless number.

I agree with everything Akrion said.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Player 1 has 30 gold, still has common vaults.
Player 2 has 30 gold, but is now down to 3 because they have vault X on all characters.

Both players still function without a need for coin because there's nothing else in the game money is used for besides portal fees. So long as your number is above what your portal fees amount to, there's no point to having it.

Money is viewed as useless plain and simple. Because it's viewed as useless, players don't aspire to make any of it, hence the problem we're in now where players don't want to hunt for money. In the end, It's just a meaningless number.

I agree with everything Akrion said.

I have 3 gold and 112 silver and money isn't useless for me. I still need to get the last vault upgrade, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to think money is useless in this game. With portals, there is some items from the consigners, or food against DPs...

[Akrion]

Both players still function without a need for coin because there's nothing else in the game money is used for besides portal fees. So long as your number is above what your portal fees amount to, there's no point to having it.

This. :3

I personally don't feel Istaria, atleast Order, will gain a completely self-sustained player run economy. Very few MMO's have actually achieved this. Not even WoW has a player run economy, some of the largest money sinks still being NPCs, and the bulk of the economy still being supported by NPCs.

Eve Online so far is the only MMO i've seen and played that has effectively established an almost entirely player run economy. (Which is rather neat to watch as prices go up whenever two major alliances go to war and then take a dive when the war ends). But Eve Online has over 250,000 on their one server with roughly 50,000 online at any one given time, something that not even WoW matches, and the entire system behind how ships/fittings/etc. are obtained, kept and lost.

Istaria needs more NPC run economy to stimulate player economy, not less.

Edit: And Lung, I've had 28g on Akrion for more than half a year now. That money hasn't been used for -anything- other than portal costs. My vault is maxed out, I've got a finished plot, I don't need more spells or armor or comps for said armor, and most anything on the consigner I can get with relative ease myself. The only thing my money has been used for is portal costs. Which I would be just as well off at 500s.

[AmonGwareth]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Nadia = Economy thing. For those who may have forgotten, there was no economy when Nadia was in the game. So, any belief that adding her back in will stimulate one is sadly mistaken.

That said, if you want the comps go hunt them yourself or pay someone else to do it. Ultimately an economy starts with one person, YOURSELF, because in any world (real or fantasy) you only have control over one person. If you start paying other people for things you want and also charging people for things they want, then others may begin doing the same.

Adding Nadia back in is NOT going to happen no matter how many threads are posted about it.

[Akrion]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Nadia = Economy thing. For those who may have forgotten, there was no economy when Nadia was in the game.

There was no economy when Nadia was in the game because of so many other factors that were NOT because of Nadia. There was no economy before, and there is still no economy now. So clearly your hopes that removing Nadia will stimulate an economy didn't work, and that Nadia was not the problem with the economy to begin with.

There are so many other things wrong with the economy, and none of your reasoning can prove otherwise because other MMO's, even ones as small or smaller than Istaria, pull it off just fine so clearly you guys are doing something wrong. Yet you continue to insist that the players are wrong and you are right despite the fact that the economy isn't any better, atleast on Order, without Nadia as it was with Nadia. Removing Nadia just got rid of one more thing to actually use your money for. There arn't people sitting on thousands of gold coins for no reason.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Edit: And Lung, I've had 28g on Akrion for more than half a year now. That money hasn't been used for -anything- other than portal costs. My vault is maxed out, I've got a finished plot, I don't need more spells or armor or comps for said armor, and most anything on the consigner I can get with relative ease myself. The only thing my money has been used for is portal costs. Which I would be just as well off at 500s.

Then, players who need money for vault upgrades or younger characters wanting to buy things like first tiers spells or techs would be glad to use this money, if some players who have so much money don't need it

[Akrion]

Then, players who need money for vault upgrades or younger characters wanting to buy things like first tiers spells or techs would be glad to use this money, if some players who have so much money don't need it

That has nothing to do with a working economy, Lung. :P

[LungTien Temeraire]

That has nothing to do with a working economy, Lung. :P

I know, but it's just a suggestion to help players and give services :P

[Dracaena]

Color me curious, but how does one "run you off shard"?

Were they (people on Order) excessively rude and/or bullying? I'd think that the admins wouldn't take too kindly to that type of behavior, surely?

If you are really curious search the forums. That argument has been hashed out many times and I am not going to repeat it all again here. Suffice to say it happens and the gods are very hands off when it comes to player issues in channels. I will say what slowed me down and made me reconsider was my lair location was owned on Chaos. Now you are stuck with me on Order. Mmhahaha.


Dracaena

[Frith-Rae]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Nadia = Economy thing. For those who may have forgotten, there was no economy when Nadia was in the game. So, any belief that adding her back in will stimulate one is sadly mistaken.

...Adding Nadia back in is NOT going to happen no matter how many threads are posted about it.

I'm with AKion on this, and I actually agree with your suggestion about an NPC that sold everything at a big markup.

No you are right Amon that Nadia has nothing to do with stimulating (or not) the economy.

Which wasn't the original point nor real point of this thread - not economy but Availability of supplies/vs. time invested.

There was no economy with or without Nadia. THe difference is that back when Nadia was here there was more population on Order (and Chaos, I guess if 50 is prime time its not much better than on Order).

What the players in this thread are talking about (more) is this... (the economy is a 2ndary related issue but not exactly the same thing)

Ultimately an economy starts with one person, YOURSELF, because in any world (real or fantasy) you only have control over one person. If you start paying other people for things you want and also charging people for things they want, then others may begin doing the same.

Actually the economy needs TWO people. One to sell, one to BUY. If you just have the ONE it doesn't work

Player one "I have control over me". So here's the issue. Me as a player could go out and spend hours harvesting comps, or formulas, or whatever oober-drop X. But if there isn't someone else who's around to BUY - problem number one.

"Player two". I have control over me. So here's the issue. Me as player doesn't want to spend the 15 bucks a month to spend 20 hours killing Mob ABC for 4 of Item X (or oober-drop Q). Me as a player would rather spend that money to RP, or to build on my lair, or the house, or whatever. So I'm looking to buy. But there's noone around selling.

On top of that - due to the oober-hours required to farm even for the "basic" socketd/teched gear (and yes, at level 60, 80, or 100 its basic) - then the cost of 4 of Item X may be higher than Player 2 can afford (without grinding 20 hours for money drops which was their original problem). What Player 2 can afford, it isn't worth it for Player 1 to spend 20 hours getting what Player 2 needs; because time effort=/=money gained. Even more undermined by money meaning nothing, if the person doing the selling has stopped selling because they got tired of farming.

Economy doesn't depend on ONE. It depends on a GROUP of people who find it worth it to spend RL money (game time) to harvest X because a 2nd GROUP of people are offering ENOUGH in-game money for it to be worth it.

If there isn't enough of One group to supply the other group - then both groups get frustrated, disheartened, and start quitting.

Therby compounding the problem to what you see in this thread. People who are desperate to buy but can't ever be online at the same time as someone who is selling (or can't find them or whatever). People who are SICK of the GRIND (and its nothing more than that, its not even masked, its sitting in one spot killing thousands of the same exact mob for a toe) and can no longer be the "suppliers" for those who want to buy.

Face it, if an entire game shard is depending on 4 players to supply the entire economy's worth of food, drops, formulas, whatever - the GAME not the players, has fallen extremely short somewhere. This is suppose to be "content" people WANT to do.

So if you give us no other option then honestly I don't see it improving. Over time people are going to lose their drive to provide those supplies; as what they get out of it is outweighed by the boredom of the reptition and lack of rewards and/or lack of purpose of the rewards.

What I wanna know is why exactly the devs are so against putting Nadia back? What/who does it hurt? What game mechanic or game-play-feature-content does it break since her prices were so high it was easy for those who wanted to - to undercut her - and still make money?

The issue isn't the economy. Its the player retention and population we're talking about.

[LOVWYRM]

Akrion, I agree with ALL you`ve said.
Could not have said better*bows*

Amon- sry and with all respect- I cannot follow your reasoning at all.
Frith Rae already said most what I would have answered you.

And pls consider: Most of us who posted in that thread, do NOT need nadia back- so concerning my friends and me: We do not care, cause we already have all or can hunt ourselfs- or have friends who supply us with what we need.

But it is US who keep the unsatisfied, annoyed players (e.g. crafters) ingame.
Its OUR time we spent in helping "strangers" out for free (and do not tell me to charge them for it- do not want to repeat myself- money- for what? )

So if its not Nadia- something else has to be done fast.
Akrion`s suggestion sounds good (not perfect) to me.

[LOVWYRM]

So far , we were talking about the "adventurer" part only.
But same goes for the crafting :
I know at least 2 great hunters, who can get no help with plot building.
My friend had 5 subs 4 plots and a lair- he would have been able to pay well for the help- but could get none (he was not a passionate crafter. So 80% could have been done by crafters who need money).
Same goes for lairs- drags would pay well for help.

Sry slight derail-but this is part of the "economy prob" too.

[AmonGwareth]

This thread has nearly run its course. Adding Nadia back is not up for discussion.

1. Nadia is a crutch. Nadia takes AWAY from adventurers by capping the price they can sell at because WE have to establish those values and determine the maximum value of the item. When in fact, demand should determine that value.

2. The population is not shrinking. Might be less people online, perhaps because it is summer and nice outside in many places. But the paid population is not shrinking.

3. You are correct, Frith, sort of. An economy does indeed require a minimum of two people. However, YOU only have control over yourself. If you don't bother to place anything on the consigner or go to the consigner to look for items, you have broken that chain. If you give goods and services away for free, you have broken that chain. You can complain about a lack of economy all you want, but if you aren't attempting to do anything about it or taking actions that directly circumvent it, then you have noone to blame but yourself.

4. Things to spend money on. This is the biggest problem, not Nadia. There is a distinct lack of items to spend money on. We've attempted to address that a little with Confectioner and with Scholar as we roll it out. Attuning epic items and other items, while perhaps frustrating for some, is also important for spurring this.

5. Consigner fees. We're looking into the % charged for posting. As you all have said, lowering this might help some.