Drag and Drop Tech Kits

[Ruache]

I've been thinking again (I know that's dangerous) of how to go about player crafted tech kits of the currently existing techs.

My thoughts are that you split them down into the different general types (offensive, defensive, craft, spell, ability, and dragon). It may be easier to say that a general tech type can only be placed on specific weapon, armour, scale, spell or jewellry piece. Rather than for each individual tech themselves. Now if we say that the general tech types can each be learned by a different craft school and crafted using a currently existing skill.

I would split them down as follows :-

Offensive Tech Kits - Blacksmith - Weaponsmithing
Defensive Tech Kits - Outfitter - Armourcraft
Craft Tech Kits - Tinkerer - Tinkering
Spell Tech Kits - Scholar - Spellcrafting
Ability Tech Kits - Jeweller - Jewelcraft
Dragon Specific Tech Kits - Dragon Crafter - Scalecraft

Now for crafting the actual kits themselves I would suggest that we use a base material for each kit.
Offensive kits - Bronze, Iron, Steel etc bars
Defensive Kits - Bronze, Silver, Gold etc bars
Craft kits - Clay Tablets (does not currently exist)
Spell kits - Stone Spell Shards
Ability kits - Cut gems
Dragon Kits - Focussed Azulyte crystals.

The crafting of each kit tier should follow the normal lowest level for each tier. ie 1 - 200 - 400 - 600 - 800 - 1000 and the normal rules for the top skill level of each.

Thoughts, comments and opinions gratefully received

Ruache.

[Nord]

Ruache you have my support. Welcome to the Danger Zone

[Dragonboy]

Old post, but good post.
Although I am not into the whole 5 out of 6 catagories biped craft only while at this moment I can add all tech to my scales whenever I want to.

[Chasing]

Crafted Technique Kits have been suggested a few times and I think the devs liked the idea but it would be a massive job to setup.

[Ruache]

I was trying to (hopefully) make it easier for the Devs to implement them.

If I called a product a bronze martial rune of slicing, I have Tier (1 from bronze), type (martial (for location)), and skill (from Slicing). Adds one hand slash 1 to a single armour or jewellry piece

Similarly a silver magical rune of flame, you get tier , type and skill affected.

With the craft skills you have the 3 diffferent skill types, harvesting, processing and finishing. Each of these will go on a different set of armour and jewellry pieces. Once you link the skill types with the set of armour and jewellry locations. Most of the work is done rather than set each individual technique having to be set up individually, they are grouped by type.

Ruache

[Vahrokh]

I am not sure if I understood it correctly.
Are you proposing we could make tech kits with i.e. +18 str, +12 masonry, +8 slash etc. to put on consigners?

If so, this would be an extremely dangerous path for the game:

- It would promote un-social gaming, since people would just deal with a NPC and that's it

- It would kill the very reason to level crafting and would discourage new players since 2-3 no-lifer master crafters would use alts to flood consigners with undercutting kits. There'd be no reason nor drive for others to level crafting any more, since someone is already filling the whole server (easy with Istaria's numbers) demand. New players would just see the next, once again, lost opportunity for them to make themselves a name and job. Super-vets with uber skills and gear would crush their competition.

[Dragonboy]

I am not sure if I understood it correctly.
Are you proposing we could make tech kits with i.e. +18 str, +12 masonry, +8 slash etc. to put on consigners?

If so, this would be an extremely dangerous path for the game:

- It would promote un-social gaming, since people would just deal with a NPC and that's it

- It would kill the very reason to level crafting and would discourage new players since 2-3 no-lifer master crafters would use alts to flood consigners with undercutting kits. There'd be no reason nor drive for others to level crafting any more, since someone is already filling the whole server (easy with Istaria's numbers) demand. New players would just see the next, once again, lost opportunity for them to make themselves a name and job. Super-vets with uber skills and gear would crush their competition.

Unless a required skill level to place the tech kit on an item is introduced. That would force people to still contact the higher ranking crafters

[Chasing]

Unless a required skill level to place the tech kit on an item is introduced. That would force people to still contact the higher ranking crafters

Yes and No, whats the point of have a technique kit that you yourself can't use. The idea is to have the tech kit available for people that can't make them themselves. Won't sell if you then have to find a crafter high enough to be able to use a kit (and what about attuning? = eek).

For Vahrokh's point

There is always going to be someone that is going to try and undercut the market, whether they are a low level or high level.

If the technique kits actually needed similar (or higher) amounts of tech comps (to make) this could help stem this.

Also how many high level players actually spend time in game making lower level techniqued equipment to sell? Its very rarely that you see such items for sale (and if you do they arent there long). T5 I agree would be saturated by the high levels, but T1-T4? probably not. It would be more cost effective to sell T5 tech kits (more $$$) than spend time making lower kits (in theory).

[Vahrokh]

Sorry for the late answer, ATM I am so busy in RL that I can't even play.

Yes and No, whats the point of have a technique kit that you yourself can't use.

And what's the point to have someone perma-batch filling the connies overnight and then no crafter is needed at all any more?
Maybe others have no problem grinding craft level after craft level for the accomplishment feeling per se, but I am not sure they are the majority.
What's left to do, what's the drive to try build a complete set of techs is someone else is spamming stuff at broad spectrum?

If Istaria had a rich and lasting end game, with regular expansion then it'd not be a big issue, i.e. in WoW at my time I could make leather reinforcement (and other) kits. But in WoW you have "1 day grind", few craft schools and crafted stuff is well worse than instance drops and both are made obsolete every 1-2 years by the next expansion (therefore, new levelling up opportunities are given).
But not here.

Look at the effects of having made money worthless, the economy is stagnating to death, it's not worth doing anything but dump on connies and some non guild sale of made stuff.
Now, let's remove the worth at making the few out of guild stuff and we get a totally dead game.

For Vahrokh's point

There is always going to be someone that is going to try and undercut the market, whether they are a low level or high level.

It would be different. As of now, people dump stuff and even undercut but it's sectorial.
Today I kill 100 mobs, dig some and then sell i.e. 5 techs, 3 formulas, 10 reagents, 1000 bricks.
Making kits is wholesale. The guys have 1 silos of bricks, have most techs already etc. They make the stuff already using their own bricks, techs, reagents. That part of market is wholly included in their stuff that therefore will have less "handling" costs and will undercut the others by its nature.
It's the very mechanism manufacturers in EvE Online to drive away competition in markets: out skill, out wallet, out price the others.
But EvE Online is a PvP game where stuff is constantly destroyed, subs (= potential buyers) are > 500 times as many, stuff is used as consummable / fuel, tangible market costs to sink money in...
Istaria does not have the shoulders nor the mechanics for this.

Also how many high level players actually spend time in game making lower level techniqued equipment to sell? Its very rarely that you see such items for sale (and if you do they arent there long). T5 I agree would be saturated by the high levels, but T1-T4? probably not. It would be more cost effective to sell T5 tech kits (more $$$) than spend time making lower kits (in theory).

This is because of the same 2004 times debate: people want sets, connies only sell single pieces and each piece counts against a low maximum ceiling therefore people's generosity clashes with having to choose whether to make 1 silver with bronze gear or 200s with less material and time involving bars.

[Chasing]

What do you suggest should be done then Vahrokh in terms of implementing tech kits?

[Dragonboy]

Not much of a choice I guess, either placable by high level crafters only or free to use by all like every tech kit we have so far.

[Vahrokh]

What do you suggest should be done then Vahrokh in terms of implementing tech kits?

Tech kits (and attuning) seem to be part of a long term plan to try and fix the huge mess that is Istaria's faucet => players => sink mechanic, where stuff ATM has no way to leave the game and makes the economy dead.

Tech kits ATM have a very precise reason to exist and to be bound. They provide exotic / epic techs without giving away a tech blueprint that would make those techs inflationed, without creating competition with crafters and they force people to go out and get them by themselves.

This is quite different vs using the same mechanic to provide regular techs which are not exotic, would create competition with crafters and would let people basically only grind money in easy ways and then buy whatever techs with no time sink nor effort.
Maybe this could be effective at the first tiers but once put in game there'd be unstoppable pressure and ragequitting till they'd be implemented for all tiers.

Therefore I may easily see the many good aspects of those tradable tech kits but the down sides are too negatively impacting on the long term to allow them to be put in game.

[Raptress]

I'm trying to see what you're saying is so bad about these tech kits, but to be honest, I'm failing. Just because one crafter could theoretically flood the market with every tech kit in existence, that doesn't mean it will happen. That's a lot of tech comps to account for and likely a lot of work. Probably too much work to be worth it.

Besides that, in order to use the tech kits to begin with, one would need to already have acquired the gear to place it on, therefore needing a crafter at some point anyway until they can do it themselves (and if they can do it themselves, they can probably tech it themselves as well, making this group inconsequential in this situation).

And if these tech kits were available, people could sell the tech kits, people could sell unteched armor which has a greater chance of being bought now that the crafter does not need to wildly guess at what techs will sell on what armor piece, and people could sell the tech comps to make the tech kits.

I just see this as more good than harm. All these tech kits would do is allow more accessible trading of armor pieces since it's no longer either a crafter selling what they can only guess will be bought nor is it a case of picking out your techs, farming the comps, and hoping to find a crafter that has all the techs you need and the skill to make your armor. In many cases, that crafter would probably do everything for free anyway, and since consigners require that money be exchanged, the tech kits would probably have a stimulating effect on the economy.

The only thing I can say is that the tech kits should probably require more resources to manufacture than applying a tech directly to a piece of gear so that traditional techs do not become worthless. Aside from that, increased cost means increased demand for comps.

[Vahrokh]

I'm trying to see what you're saying is so bad about these tech kits, but to be honest, I'm failing

That's understandable because what's behind this is not immediately evident nor short term.
Basically, this is a game where (for many well known contingent reasons) there's little other "objectives" than getting many schools to 100 and to complete the related accessories.
The most important accessory is to have a fairly complete set of techs, because you can stay sure that the guy asking you a whole set tomorrow WILL want exactly the tech you still miss. Therefore you have a drive to level up and get as many formulas and techs as possible.
Doing this you take time and taking time is what a MMO financial stability depends upon.
Now, enter a solution that is fantastic in the short run, easily fixing the shortage of people being logged on now with such techs available.
What happens? That from that day on, there's no reason to do anything beyond grinding less than 100 levels and buy no techs.
This will happen because with tech kits you can easily make unteched gear without any need to make yourself a good crafting set first. Multiply this for the several crafting schools that as of today all require a teched set and you see how you just removed a massive time sink => remove game time => remove money to Virtrium.
Then you give the unteched stuff to the guy who will just go out and buy some tech kits off a connie. The kit maker, on his turn, won't even care to make himself a good set of techs (more removed time sink, more removed money for Vi) because he does not have the responsibility to have all the techs in case a customer wants varied pieces requiring them.
He can focus on the 4-5 most used techs and cut on game time required to compete against "real" complete crafters who had to spend months and years to be complete.

Basically you seem to look for your immediate benefit, without seeing the game makers are those going to be hit, and they happen to be not a Sony, not a Blizzard and not an Electronic Arts, but just a bunch of dedicated developers that depend on each single player continued sub to survive.

[Raptress]

Heh, it's kind of hard to see that that was your point when that stuff doesn't seem to be mentioned in any obvious way in your previous posts. I thought you were worried about one crafter gathering up every tech kit formula and taking over the market, which, while possible, doesn't seem very realistic.

I guess I could see situations in which that would be an issue, but if I'm speaking from personal experience, I only ever made gear in order to craft other gear one time in all the years I've been playing, and the only time sink experienced with that was gathering the comps for the scales, which would only have taken a few hours. Most of my crafting time sinks are related to plot building, which tech kits will not impact all that much more than the current tech system, imo.

You still have to grind out craft levels in order to make unteched gear, so saying that tech kits will effectively remove the time sink of crafting is a little.. unfair. And if you want to argue that allowing tech kits means that anyone can just buy their gear and never do the craft grind, well.. that can already happen and anyone who dislikes crafting can already do that.

Should we also make all gear attune to the crafter so everyone has to craft their own gear? Because that would certainly circumvent that problem.

[Dragonboy]

Should we also make all gear attune to the crafter so everyone has to craft their own gear? Because that would certainly circumvent that problem.

Unless the devs find a way of allowing us to store attuned gear in a plot / lair structure I cannot agree with this.

[Vahrokh]

Heh, it's kind of hard to see that that was your point when that stuff doesn't seem to be mentioned in any obvious way in your previous posts

[First of all I deeply apologige in advance because the next sentences will sound like some know-it-all stuff spewing difficult things by purpose.]


Well, when talking about MMO balance I cannot do TLDR posts, it'd take pages and pages to just write an introduction to the deep "whys" of MMOs inner mechanics, why concepts like "BoP", "attuned", "economy scarcity", "market elasticity" (plus 1000 other terms I won't list, it's TLDR and sounds like schooling) are fundamental to grasp the huge creatures that are modern MMOs.

Therefore I assume those concepts are already known to the readers and that they'll consider them before suggesting potentially high impact game changes.

Istaria has also additional risk factors: it's an old game with established rules, we can't act like it's in permanent alpha and introduce big changes nor we can act like Vi is Blizzard, with 300 programmers ready or even be able to do what is asked.

You still have to grind out craft levels in order to make unteched gear, so saying that tech kits will effectively remove the time sink of crafting is a little.. unfair.

I did not say "that tech kits will effectively remove the time sink of crafting".

I said: "there's no reason to do anything beyond grinding less than 100 levels".

Less than 100 means: "the amount of levels, below 100, required to get buffed and then craft the hardest unteched item of the target school".

Now I am sure some people can actually play ATM and see how high is the skill required to get buffs and pots and then craft unteched gear. You may streamline this as well, since it's unteched you can make 10 sets with the expense of 1 potion and then leave sitting in a vault for when you will tech them. This is another shortcut you could not do by going the regular way.
Let's imagine you can make that stuff at level 95. In the long run you end up saving the time and resources to level up a whole craft school.

Should we also make all gear attune to the crafter so everyone has to craft their own gear? Because that would certainly circumvent that problem.

It's too late for this. If this happened, there'd be an uproar and rage quitting.
Moreover, ATM being unable to pass a set of craft gear to i.e. a new guy at tier 3 would just make his life miserable.

Actually, being able to pass lower level teched gear to friends is the counter to needing to have tradable tech kits. Plus it makes people try making friends (in order to ask them to borrow the gear) which in a MMO is not so bad.

[Raptress]

Unless the devs find a way of allowing us to store attuned gear in a plot / lair structure I cannot agree with this.

That was in no way a serious suggestion. It was hyperbole that was intended to show the attitude that I interpreted from some of the things Vahrokh said.

I still don't agree that tech kits will magically make no one grind out classes to 100. Like I said before, it was very rare that I was leveling in order to craft tech'd gear. Mostly, I was leveling in order to use higher tier resources or I was building, and building continues even after there are no more levels to gain.

Yes, tech kits will make it easier for everyone to get tech'd gear, thus cutting down on the amount of time sink they have. But you can already do this if you can find a crafter.

[Vahrokh]

But you can already do this if you can find a crafter

...which is the point of playing a multiplayer game.

[Kesqui]

I'd very much like to be able to create - and sell - low-level tech kits. I don't know that I'd craft higher-level ones personally, but I'd be inclined to use that as a way to earn a few silver here and there.

Much better than the time I tried making a big batch of various bronze/sandstone scales with techs/sockets/etc on them... and wound up getting over half of them back.