The Easy Button

[Gengel]

<OOC>
Ranting, especially OOC, is truly not my style or liking. I offer the following as a thoughtful retrospective for all, and especially for my friends who wish me to voice my opinion.

So, yes, this is only an opinion and I will spend little time or energy on anything non-constructive or subjective.

A constant murmur is that "goals" - hunting, crafting, construction keep getting easier and easier. Yes, there are examples to the counter but this is a generalization/sentiment being echoed.

Things change, and one can argue this is the natural "tweeking" of game balance. Unfortunately, these tweeks remove the "epic" feel of accomplishing something of a great effort.

So, what are my rants? For example, is everyone "entitled" to the "bestest" gear that is completely tech'ed out? Should construction become exponentially harder as you raise the Tier? <Flame Ward>Should Dragons continue to gain more and more abilities, spells... without their ratings increasing?</Flame Ward>

So, what do I like? I like Epic group or solo activities. I do not care that it takes me six months to build a ridiculous structure or 2 hours hunting solo an epic mob. It gives me a sense of accomplishment. It also builds rapport with friends new and old. I just sigh with a heavier heart when "goals" become simpler. So, <knock knock...anybody listening>, keep a few tough goals (and not just the mundane Doom hunting quests ) for those who like to make the investment. Balance is important, but everytime you make something easier, a little bit of an Elder dies.
</OOC>

The dryad sighs and raises a tankard to her friends and community.

Respectfully,

~< Gengel >~

[Holth]

*Bows to Gengel*

Very well said!

*raises a tankard*

[Knossos]

Heh Gengel no ale for that - it is Brandy material

Knossos

[Veruliyam]

Huzzah!!

But, do you have a tiny sniffter?

[Shinkuu]

I am fine with challenge so long as it follows some criteria.

A) It is purposeful Challenge not a Game Flaw or Bug.

B) It makes logical sense. ie. It is difficult to kill a General of an Army because he will bring his forces to bear upon you likely with good strategy and will very likely have a fortress to surmount leaving you the attacker to deal with a defender who often has the advantage. As opposed to things like: You can hardly kill this monster because it is so OP it can just ignore you/OHK you or has minions that can stun lock you forever despite you being well equipped and on level with it.

C) The challenge is offered to you at a level or time when you may stand a chance of actually meeting it rather than long before or so far into the future that it is not a challenge of any sort anymore.

D) Using strategy to defeat the enemy WORKS... As opposed to just using more and more people as the only solution is more spamming of attacks regardless of what sort.

E) If it is building and it takes forever that it be WORTH the effort. I do not want to spend forever making something that is next to useless. I am not a physical artist and I do not want to make something just because it is big or looks pretty it should be functional as well and VERY worth the amount of pain it took to make.

[LOVWYRM]

so sad, that not all will understand what you are talking about, Gengel.
I do - and agree!

[Dhalin]

I am fine with challenge so long as it follows some criteria.

A) It is purposeful Challenge not a Game Flaw or Bug.

B) It makes logical sense. ie. It is difficult to kill a General of an Army because he will bring his forces to bear upon you likely with good strategy and will very likely have a fortress to surmount leaving you the attacker to deal with a defender who often has the advantage. As opposed to things like: You can hardly kill this monster because it is so OP it can just ignore you/OHK you or has minions that can stun lock you forever despite you being well equipped and on level with it.

C) The challenge is offered to you at a level or time when you may stand a chance of actually meeting it rather than long before or so far into the future that it is not a challenge of any sort anymore.

D) Using strategy to defeat the enemy WORKS... As opposed to just using more and more people as the only solution is more spamming of attacks regardless of what sort.

E) If it is building and it takes forever that it be WORTH the effort. I do not want to spend forever making something that is next to useless. I am not a physical artist and I do not want to make something just because it is big or looks pretty it should be functional as well and VERY worth the amount of pain it took to make.

Shinkuu sums it up pretty well here.

I know people probably have a lot less of an opinion of me after the last couple days, but I think Shinkuu's words here pretty closely mirror my own.

I was never asking for an "Easy Button". Never. I know people _love_ putting words in my mouth (er, keyboard), but I was only asking for a balance of challenge vs reward, and also that such challenges be sensible and well-designed. Go to TvTropes and look up the phrase "Fake Difficulty" to get what I mean. Actually, I'll even provide a link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...FakeDifficulty

I was only asking for things like in this post here that I just quoted. Effort should equal Reward. Or is it, Reward should equal Effort? Either way, spending so much effort to gain so little is always something that turns somebody off.

If you make just fluff items so hard to get, then many players just simply don't do the "Fluff" items and skip em. Some players might do it for the "Fun", but those are usually a minority.

If you make items *required* to your character's growth like this, and then supply a "Just don't do it" answer when players go "What the heck!?", then players who don't feel like pulling their teeth out will just quit the game entirely.

Anyways, read that TvTropes article. It explains it quite well too.

Edit:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeBalance

I see at least 1 or two instances of where Istaria is guilty of this too.

[Shinkuu]

Shinkuu sums it up pretty well here.

I know people probably have a lot less of an opinion of me after the last couple days, but I think Shinkuu's words here pretty closely mirror my own.

I was never asking for an "Easy Button". Never. I know people _love_ putting words in my mouth (er, keyboard), but I was only asking for a balance of challenge vs reward, and also that such challenges be sensible and well-designed. Go to TvTropes and look up the phrase "Fake Difficulty" to get what I mean. Actually, I'll even provide a link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...FakeDifficulty

I was only asking for things like in this post here that I just quoted. Effort should equal Reward. Or is it, Reward should equal Effort? Either way, spending so much effort to gain so little is always something that turns somebody off.

If you make just fluff items so hard to get, then many players just simply don't do the "Fluff" items and skip em. Some players might do it for the "Fun", but those are usually a minority.

If you make items *required* to your character's growth like this, and then supply a "Just don't do it" answer when players go "What the heck!?", then players who don't feel like pulling their teeth out will just quit the game entirely.

Anyways, read that TvTropes article. It explains it quite well too.

Edit:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeBalance

I see at least 1 or two instances of where Istaria is guilty of this too.

Fun to see us agreeing again. I always strive to keep it real and say what I observe.

Istaria is not horribly guilty of Cheapness as I term it but there are some instance of it. It especially falls down in offering challenges that are beyond you at the level you get them which is annoying. However, it certainly does drop some bombs in terms of monsters who are just plain difficult without being intelligently so due to being made Over Powered just to defeat the Player.


My favorite example of this was in Real Time Strategy games where turning up the difficulty of the AI rarely resulted in them using more cunning Strategies. It usually resulted in them literally cheating. They would get units without having the required structures for them, they would become harder to kill for no apparent reason, they would move faster for no reason, they would build without need for resources etc... That always turned me off. I do want the AI to cheat more I want it to fight smarter!

[Akrion]

That always turned me off. I do want the AI to cheat more I want it to fight smarter!

Unfortunately as far as programming goes, that's extremely extremely difficult. As they stand, Computers operate, and can only operate, at their core on a strictly logical basis (No intuition, no guessing, no playing the odds, it just does exactly as it is told). Because of this, it is hard for computers to be truly random. For example: Rolling 2 physical 6 sided dice will be more random than a computer roll of 2 6 sided dice. So on the same note, it's also very hard if not next to impossible as computers stand right now to have a computer emulate human strategic thinking in a dynamically changing environment like an RTS.

This is all because you have to find a way to emulate human traits such as intuition on a machine where intuition is ultimately impossible. So somewhere behind all the advanced AI decision making is a logical process with a predictable sequence of outcomes that the AI is being based on. One example of a basic way to get a random number is to use the computer's internal clock. Since the clock is always changing a random number can be generated. However, because the clock changes at a steady and predictable rate, after a while the numbers generated will begin to form a pattern.

The human mind has a remarkable ability to take a situation and generate a solution to it that may not be entirely logical due to the general unpredictability of life. A Commander may be able to predict logically the decisions his enemy will make to some extent, but he will never know exactly what his enemy is thinking and because of this a purely logical solution is impossible. So intuition is necessary. It's not always successful, but it must be done due to the inability to rely entirely on logic.

This is why almost every RTS in existence gives computers an unfair advantage when you raise the difficulty level, the computer will never be able to make intuitive decisions about you, so it can only make things harder on you by putting you at the disadvantage.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible to make an AI that couldn't give you a challenge without cheating, it will just take a lot of time and money to develop, and if you play against the computer long enough you'll eventually be able to predict everything the computer will do in response to what you do. So the AI would have to be changed every so often, and that also would be a lot of work. Ultimately, not practical. And to make it truly unpredictable, as of right now, not possible.

[Frith-Rae]

*chuckles*

We are currently/recently having a discussion on this over in the "forums which are not allowed to be named."

Specifically the difference between "dumbing down" content and, as a recent Blizz dev put it, "removing the suck."

I think its possible to "remove the suck" from a game (thereby implying its more fun, but also may mean its technically easier because part of removing suck usually involves removing grind) without "dumbing it down."

Though of course, you can "dumb it down" and leave all the suck in as well =D

But easier doesn't always mean "dumbing it down" or taking away challenge. If grind=hard and lack of grind=easy, then I am waiting for the day of the truly easy game...

Istaria can certainly "remove the suck" from its play and grind and still maintain challenge - much as Shinkuu stated.

[AmonGwareth]

*chuckles*

We are currently/recently having a discussion on this over in the "forums which are not allowed to be named."

Specifically the difference between "dumbing down" content and, as a recent Blizz dev put it, "removing the suck."

I think its possible to "remove the suck" from a game (thereby implying its more fun, but also may mean its technically easier because part of removing suck usually involves removing grind) without "dumbing it down."

Though of course, you can "dumb it down" and leave all the suck in as well =D

But easier doesn't always mean "dumbing it down" or taking away challenge. If grind=hard and lack of grind=easy, then I am waiting for the day of the truly easy game...

Istaria can certainly "remove the suck" from its play and grind and still maintain challenge - much as Shinkuu stated.

The catch is that one person's idea of "dumbing down" or "suck" or "easy" doesn't necessarily fit with another's. Maintaining a balance is what must be done. And as you can see by numerous threads over the years here and on just about every gaming forum in existence, its not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

[jerk-o]

Curse you Dhalin! I've been sucked into the linking vortex of doom known as tvtropes!!

[Kesqui]

Curse you Dhalin! I've been sucked into the linking vortex of doom known as tvtropes!!

Glad I'm not the only one.... ooh, I'll have a look at that, and then that, and then some of these and oh dear goodness they've mentioned Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark as "high octane nightmare fuel" and THEY'VE SHOWN PICTURES...

[Vahrokh]

I was only asking for things like in this post here that I just quoted. Effort should equal Reward. Or is it, Reward should equal Effort? Either way, spending so much effort to gain so little is always something that turns somebody off.

Istaria is a grindy-yet-laughably easy game all round, with no realistic possibility to be drastically changed or improved with the budget constraints.

Istaria's content and difficulty has to deal with the available workforce. There's no 10 new levels (+ content) expansion every other year (or every 6 months in other games), there's no new instances, no raids, no real PvP and little new areas (Amon is actually the one who introduced Doom, we stayed years with no news before Vi).
So, all there is, is grinding the next level or school. If they also made it short and even easier, you'd play for 3 months and then would quit.

Then there's the real content and reason to stay, which is the community, but you don't tend to talk like you value it a lot. Despite it's the rarest resource in any MMO.

[Dhalin]

Istaria is a grindy-yet-laughably easy game all round, with no realistic possibility to be drastically changed or improved with the budget constraints.

I'm quite aware of this. Did I ever say anything different, anywhere before?

Istaria's content and difficulty has to deal with the available workforce. There's no 10 new levels (+ content) expansion every other year (or every 6 months in other games), there's no new instances, no raids, no real PvP and little new areas (Amon is actually the one who introduced Doom, we stayed years with no news before Vi).

True, the Doom is the only huge new thing to arrive in a long time, but you don't need a large instance/dungeon/cave/whatever for new challenges to take place. Could it really be that hard to code up a boss like Shaloth or something, and stick it somewhere in the world, and stick a few nice items on it?

So, all there is, is grinding the next level or school. If they also made it short and even easier, you'd play for 3 months and then would quit.

Maybe, maybe not.

Some quit because they get tired of doing the same thing over and over again.

Some quit because they did everything and ran out of things to do.

Some temporarily quit for that reason.

Some are still playing, because they can still find things to do.

It all depends on the person, really.

Then there's the real content and reason to stay, which is the community, but you don't tend to talk like you value it a lot. Despite it's the rarest resource in any MMO.

I do value it; I've seen the Trade chat in WoW. I've seen Barrens - General. I've seen FFXI and its Jeuno/Whitegate Spam. I like that Istaria has a smaller, but closer-knit community and I appreciate it. I have always appreciated it.

Its just that I realize that I, myself, am not a people person. It takes me forever to make a new friend, and even when I do meet somebody, I find myself... slow... to actually open up on a personal level. It is one of my faults, I'll admit it.

It is one of the reasons I gave up on RP, too. I tried it a few times, got mostly ignored, didn't really know anybody (I came there solely for my GF as I said before), and decided to just treat it as another video game; have fun off in my own little corner, maybe wave and say Hi if I should meet anybody.

The catch is that one person's idea of "dumbing down" or "suck" or "easy" doesn't necessarily fit with another's. Maintaining a balance is what must be done. And as you can see by numerous threads over the years here and on just about every gaming forum in existence, its not easy by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm glad you guys are trying, unlike others I've seen. You actually *try* for balance, even if I don't always agree with your (or the other devs') methods, I still respect the fact that you guys do in fact Try.

The "nerfing" of Satyr Isles may not be popular amongst the player base, but I do agree with Amon's reasons as to why it must be done. Moving the loot around, well... I dunno, I've mixed feelings on it.

[Shian]

Curse you Dhalin! I've been sucked into the linking vortex of doom known as tvtropes!!

Got stuck in here for two hours....
First I was wandering around different categories, then got sucked into various game pages.... Found out a Firefly reference is its own trope ^^ Now I'm looking at TV shows -_- Does it stop?! *clicks more*

[Dhalin]

Got stuck in here for two hours....
First I was wandering around different categories, then got sucked into various game pages.... Found out a Firefly reference is its own trope ^^ Now I'm looking at TV shows -_- Does it stop?! *clicks more*

You remind me of Lunar 2, the secret Zophar speech:

You.
Yes, you.
I see what you're doing.
Ripping XA Audio, illegally listening to it, without legitimately finishing the game.
You wanted to hear those outtakes so bad, you couldn't wait.
I like that.
Remember when you cheated on that test in school and thought nobody was looking?
I saw it and I remember.
Remember when you lied to your parents and thought you got away with it?
You didn't.
But I liked it.
And now, you're cheating with XA Audio; where does it stop!?
It doesn't!
That's the best part!
I got a place, just for you. A Nice warm place right at my side.
Mu-ahahahahaha!!!

BTW, I have many Tropes and common words/phrases memorized... lol. Chekhov's Gun, MacGuffin, YouFailXForever, DidNotDoTheResearch, OlderThanTheyThink, etc. lol.

[Andaras]

Gengel, I am a firm admirer now. I shall go into the Confection shop and
create a Life Size (mayber bigger) Chocolate Statue of you, with sprinkles
and powered sugar on the wings. Then I shall bow in worship!

Shinkuu, I agree with you too. Part B was something I attempted
to point out in another topic. Those types of mobs do _not_
introduce challenge, they only bring frustration. OHK wonders
do not galvanize groups to rush off just to gather DPs.

Each time something is changed in game, when it is detrimental
to the Community or players or just an overt change "just cause we think
it makes sense to us", it kills another small bit of loyalty that all Elders
have nutured within their souls for Istaria. For me, my heart was
ripped out when our Guild Towns were wiped - years of building and
effort - Poof.

*Sits with Thaalia and Knossos - but does not attempt to out-drink the Dwarf*

Andaras

[Vahrokh]

Istaria is not horribly guilty of Cheapness as I term it but there are some instance of it. It especially falls down in offering challenges that are beyond you at the level you get them which is annoying. However, it certainly does drop some bombs in terms of monsters who are just plain difficult without being intelligently so due to being made Over Powered just to defeat the Player.

Istaria is basically divided in two kinds of mobs: farmables and WA.

WA are not really farmable (at same level and rating) as they are meant to be "the nasties". They'd be a loose equivalent of doing a WoW instance in heroic mode, where mobs are grouped and need careful pulling and are difficult to solo if possible at all.

The farmables are spread all around and exactly like in WoW, WH and other games I have played have roaming "elites" or nameds that were created to provide a random, dangerous element that macro (gold) farmers could not deal easily with, with their scripted bots.
Therefore the game "model" per se is identical to others.

Where Istaria has big issues is the spawn system. Now let me put in some ancient history (I am ancient after all!) so it won't be lost in the twirl of years. It's needed to show my point later.

Before the ED and the southern sea isles existed Istaria had another spawn system that had mobs "always on" and thus easily visible from a distance like you see in other MMOs.

They sucked at visuals though, since a proprietary "piece" (called library) AE / Tulga / Vi have no control upon, would show them as horrid grey blobs and such library is something too many parts of the 3D engine depends upon to have it replaced.
Furthermore, after adding the "new lands" the mobs number had to be increased to populate them and... the server simulation daemon hit an architectural ceiling (too much memory) and could not cover the whole territory with enough mobs.
Therefore the actual "on demand" system was introduced, with a long, long history of tweaks, spawns needing remake (recall the Satyr isles? Or those spawns that "break" and just spit a mob every 3 minutes?) and people quitting due to this.

Imho since Istaria is similar to other (more succesful) MMOs, MANY of the issues at hand still come from the mobs spawn mechanics, not from some sunday self appointed theorycrafter game balance.

Also, Imho a very simple fix - given the fact the current player base low numbers more than allows for it - would be to enlarge the mob spawn trigger areas so that they start spawning from 30-40% farter distance than today.

My favorite example of this was in Real Time Strategy games where turning up the difficulty of the AI rarely resulted in them using more cunning Strategies. It usually resulted in them literally cheating.

This is why I always loved to play Starcraft and Total Annihilation. Both are two pieces of pure art, despite the latter's AI needed "human made" tweaks in the map editor to be effective. It remains an historical piece of genius never matched afterwards.

We are currently/recently having a discussion on this over in the "forums which are not allowed to be named."

Specifically the difference between "dumbing down" content and, as a recent Blizz dev put it, "removing the suck."

Removing the suck is easy in "entry level" games where the players have similar goals, attitude, preferences and only vary in their allowed game time (ie hard core spending lots of hours, "casuals" getting "dailies" because that's all they can do).

I compare Istaria with EvE Online instead, both have strong crafting, both have many ways to be played, both are "sandbox". Due to such free form nature, both are played by people with widely different and even opposite interests.

Istaria has players who can't wait and log in and make the next fifty blocks for their tier 9000 plot. Some of them find "the suck" is having to eventually fight mobs guarding the resources they need.
Others love the bloodbath on the Satyr isles, to get home with 30s-a-piece reagents and whatsnot. They find "the suck" is the need of having to find the "I log in once a year" crafter that can make them their new gear.
Others love server wide events where many people cooperate building the next bridge to world salvation (!) and find "the suck" in the lack of those events.
Others love to play artisan / merchant and craft stuff to sell to players and find "the suck" is the lack of demand off a dwindling customer base.

Now meeting and matching these contrasting preference is vastly harder than the "in case of doubt, give more epics" other MMOs can afford to do.
All of this with hundreds of times less the manpower of the above.

Each time something is changed in game, when it is detrimental to the Community or players or just an overt change "just cause we think it makes sense to us", it kills another small bit of loyalty that all Elders have nutured within their souls for Istaria

This happens in every game, players see their certain present being changed for an unknown future that could be worse. Yet, without change there's no progression nor life.
Istaria's numbers PROVE that doing what the current player base demands can bring a MMO down to few hundreds of players.

The pure crafters, the super-carebears are such a minority that other games all based on "zero war, all peace" have never passed few thousands of subscriptions, it's a niche that is too small to survive upon.
On the opposite site, PvE (not PvP) adventurer type players are an huge majority - even in EvE it's possible to see that - and most of them left Istaria long ago, when it stopped providing enough challenge or rewards.

For me, my heart was ripped out when our Guild Towns were wiped - years of building and effort - Poof.

There was a magic cure to avoid that: pay a subscription. Evidently all those years of efforts were considered not enough to deserve the pittance of an Istaria subscription.

The other face of the medal? Players who pay can reuse those abandoned plots. 3 of 3 of my properties (some half or fully built) come from non paying players. I'd have less drive to play the game if I, active payer, could not build my plots and lairs because someone who cannot be bothered to pay still occupies them since years.
Before the cleanup mechanism I could not find a plot above 45 x 45 (ie worthless to me) and every single lair was taken. Now I got a 75 x 75 (had larger but this one is in a nice strategic place and not in some lol "apartments" island) and two lairs.

[Akrion]

Istaria's numbers PROVE that doing what the current player base demands can bring a MMO down to few hundreds of players.

You think Istaria is the way it is now entirely because of player demands? So it has absolutely nothing to do with the release of other MMOs such as WoW, the dated engine, the huge billing debacle with EI, the fact that the game was released in an almost beta-like state of which it remains to this day, the lag.. It's all because the players have opinions that Istaria went from thousands to hundreds? Wow. It totally makes sense now. <.<