More Elite = More Complainy

[Dhalin]

Ever noticed this?

Even though it was not Istaria that inspired this rant, I'm putting it under "Istaria Style" because this actually does apply to Istaria too, from what I've seen during the last 2-3 weeks.

Ever noticed how, when the devs go to make a change, the first people to stand up and go "Noooo!!!" are the so-called "Elite" players of any MMORPG?

What inspired this rant, is another certain MMORPG is about to release a huge Expansion, and to prep the game for that Expansion, they recently released a patch that made several changes necessary for said expansion coming up.

The people who complained the hardest, were the most elite. They complained that they no longer had X ability, that they no longer could do X, Y, Z and get away with it, etc. The whole patch made things harder which is exactly what the so-called Elites were complaining about: The game being too easy.

Well, they made the game harder, now "Elites" are going "I quit, because I can't X, Y, Z". Or "I quit, because I'm not good enough to know how to re-learn a new mechanic for my character", or whatever other stupid reason they have for quitting.

Anyways, that got me thinking to Istaria.

The Devs here said that the Satyr Isles need changing, because it is nearly impossible to make heads nor tails out of the spawns on those isles, and because debugging such spawns is nearly impossible. Right away, the "Elite" players go "noooo!!!!".

Who did I NOT hear complaining?

Your everyday, more casual player. The player who logs in, enjoys the game, and logs out, not claiming to be anybody great.

Then, the Devs said they wanted to move things around, they wanted Forms and Techs to drop from the WA/Undead if I recall, and the comps to drop from creatures. Then, the Elite Players go "Nooo! now I have no reason to hunt those! The game is too easy now!"

Who was Not complaining?

The Casuals.

Just like the aforementioned MMORPG, even when they were making the game *harder*, the casuals complained far less than the "Elites".

Now, Istaria is a little different, it doesn't have a 10mil+ sub count, but still, the same general concept applies.

Now, I know someone will point out my complaints. Let me clarify that before they even have time to type it:

I was never complaining about the proposed changes to the Satyr Isles or the loot changes. I was only re-iterating the reasons why I think this change is a good thing, and adding a couple other issues loosely related (targeting).

My main point here, is this:

Give the devs a chance before you click the "Quit" button. Honestly. If the casuals can buckle down and endure changes, surely the "Elite" players can do the same, especially if they act and claim to be so much better. Players who have attitudes in Istaria are much rarer than the other aforementioned game, but I have seen the "We're better than you are" in subtle ways, even in Istaria. Don't pretend it doesn't exist, because it does.

I won't name any names here, and I am not talking about anyone in particular, but I have gotten that vibe while browsing the forums, *especially* during the last couple weeks.

[Teto Frum]

Elite and elitist are pretty powerful and condescending terms to be labeling people with. I don't consider myself elite in game or out.

What I do think though when you've been here premerge and your in game time can be tracked in years or months not hours and the developers ask for insight you should be honest with what you see as a downside of any upcoming changes.

Food timers were reduced (still too long) from delta to live because of forum talk, tavern bonuses by size came about from discussion on here. Plenty of things have been altered by input, something VI is often congratulated for.

Whos quit already, I dont know of anyone personally and I know most of the upset group. This is what where we hunt , comps providing is what we do, I dont think after years of playing and paying that asking that the game in question remain a place with things you wanna do makes you elite or a complainer.

The overhaul is gonna happen Ive no doubt on that, people will then make a decision when it does whether they stay or go like anything, but this cant be compared to some ability nerf actually removing why most of us play.

[LOVWYRM]

Dhalin- its not that I disagree with what you`ve said

but ()

- lets discuss the word choice:
"Eliteplayers"- I know those from other games, and I dare to say, that Istaria does not have such players, cause the game is not designed for that. Lets stay with the word " Veteranplayer".
And then there is no reason that someone says "I`m better than you are".
Only thing one could say is "I know more about the game, I have achieved more than you" But who would say so- and if- nothing bad about it ,
cause its natural.
Anyway-I have never heard one or the other

So why do vets complain faster and louder if it comes to changes or what they feel are nerfs?

Because they know more about the game than the average/casual players.
Because they have much more to loose than the average/casual players.
They loose things they have worked for hours, months or even years.
They are proud of what they possess and proud of what they`ve achieved.
They do not want to loose it.
Nothing wrong with that. Its natural- again.

One point I agree with you 100%: Threatening to push the "quit button" is not the solution.
Making suggestions, pointing out where probs might arise (from certain changes), discussing and looking for compromises- and -most important-
give the compromise a try- this is what I expect from a vet player.

From the dev`s side I expect that they provide us with informations early enough- so that is time for discussion which will, on the other hand, provide the devs with important infos too.
And I expect that out- of- favor changes will be explained and why they are necessary for the progress of the game.

[Shian]

That's because the casual players were all at the rally to restore sanity and/or fear.

I want a sandwich!

All kidding aside, the casual player is not going to visit the forums. They are going to do what they always have- log in one day at a time and just play the game.

[Shinkuu]

This should come as no surprise to anyone however...

The Elite players have the most invested in their particular style of doing things whereas the newer players have yet to become so stuck in a particular rut. Humans are creatures of habit and changing their habits always gets their Ire.

The Elite players also stand to be "Less Powerful" after a big change in mechanics because they are all set up to use the current setups and this allows younger players not so setup to push them off their vaunted hill for a time until they can adapt.

The Elite players frequently ask for greater challenge for everyone and less availability of funds and exp because they have already MADE IT to the top and have no need of these things. So in order to ensure that fewer people join them at the top and become REAL competition for them they want to gimp everyone else. (Happens here quite often from what I see)

It is very much like Real Life in terms of Success, Wealth, and Power. The very same things happen where those who have been successful bow their heads to the primal instincts that tell them to eliminate mating competition by any means at their disposal. I love how humans fool themselves into believing they are so special and beyond Nature's grip when they dance to its every beckon call like Marionettes.

However, this is mostly the "Elite" group who does this which by that title means those at the top who are also often boastful and honestly rude. There are still quite a few High/End Level folks in Istaria who are NOT guilty of this. I would throw Awdz's name out as a good example of one who is very powerful In-Game but who is anything but condescending to lower level folks or stalwartly opposed to change.

In the end if games like Istaria do NOT go through the growing pains and change and evolve with time they eventually die out. I do not care if some "L33t" players cry and throw a hissy fit and Rage /quit because of it because if it is not done the whole game will eventually die off and that is no fun for anyone.

So as Dhalin says instead of throwing a total fit at every change check the changes out and suggest some constructive tweaks to them or even suggest other changes to go with them that will even things out and make the whole game improve instead.

[Shinkuu]

Dhalin- its not that I disagree with what you`ve said

but ()

- lets discuss the word choice:
"Eliteplayers"- I know those from other games, and I dare to say, that Istaria does not have such players, cause the game is not designed for that. Lets stay with the word " Veteranplayer".
And then there is no reason that someone says "I`m better than you are".
Only thing one could say is "I know more about the game, I have achieved more than you" But who would say so- and if- nothing bad about it ,
cause its natural.
Anyway-I have never heard one or the other

So why do vets complain faster and louder if it comes to changes or what they feel are nerfs?

Because they know more about the game than the average/casual players.
Because they have much more to loose than the average/casual players.
They loose things they have worked for hours, months or even years.
They are proud of what they possess and proud of what they`ve achieved.
They do not want to loose it.
Nothing wrong with that. Its natural- again.

One point I agree with you 100%: Threatening to push the "quit button" is not the solution.
Making suggestions, pointing out where probs might arise (from certain changes), discussing and looking for compromises- and -most important-
give the compromise a try- this is what I expect from a vet player.

From the dev`s side I expect that they provide us with informations early enough- so that is time for discussion which will, on the other hand, provide the devs with important infos too.
And I expect that out- of- favor changes will be explained and why they are necessary for the progress of the game.

There is ALWAYS room for people to say "I am better than you.". "I am higher level than you. I have techs you can NEVER have. I can kill things you cannot. I can make things you can NEVER make. I have items you can NEVER get. So bask in my glory loser! You have trouble making that? You have trouble getting coin? You have trouble killing that? Tut Tut, how pathetic. You are obviously a filthy commoner, please stand further away from me. I cannot stand to have your Noob rubbing off on me." Yes, they exist here in Istaria. Trying to cover that fact over with a pretty name is just Denial and that is unhealthy. Best to fess up to the truth and recognize the problem so that the healing can begin.


When the game does actually change in such a way to destroy or take away a big achievement for older players there is good reason to complain and not even being an older player in the last game I played I ended up quitting it because of that. There were special dungeons and VERY HARD quests they had to go through in order to get certain gear and the Game Makers decided to just give away that gear to anyone who could shell out the $ for it. Essentially cheapening all the hard work of those players to Nothing and while I was not one who even HAD that gear I could not stand by that decision and there was NO chance the Makers were going to change their minds no matter what we all said. It was a HUGE slap in the face to those people who worked hard to get those things and I am the type of person who finds that repugnant.

Some players in that game were like "Yay! I get the good stuff for no work! Too bad so sad for you losers who had to work for Months to get it!"... They made me sick to be honest...

The Older players THINK they know more about the game BTW but they may not. As things change they may well know as much as the New Players which is Nothing because what they are used to has changed. I also notice that Older players who have invested heavily in certain ways of doing things rarely experiment and try to do anything in new ways to find out if there are other, more fun, or better ways of playing the game whereas newer players often do mostly out of accident.

However, see my lower post for the rest on the Elite Players and keep in mind that High Level/End Level Player ≠ Elite Player. SOME are and SOME are not. From my Experience on Order MOST of the End Level folks in Istaria are not that Elite Group but then it is likely that it is true of many games that they represent a Minority but because of their vested interest in keeping everyone else down they are often very LOUD about protecting their High Horse and often the Majority of more Compassionate End Levelers are not very vocal in trying to stop them.

"All evil needs to be successful is for good men to do nothing."

[LOVWYRM]

We should not get into this

[Chasing]

*pokes snout in*

Going to reply to the OP with my personal opinion.

Elite player?
Dunno if I would label myself as that. Veteran player then yes.

Do I cry and stamp my feet and complain at every change?
Nope

Do I say if I am not happy about something?
Yes - but I normally give reasons why (and I try to look at things from an overall view)

Examples

1. Loot Revamp - I have no problem with the proposed loot revamp so I havent got involved except for doing some testing on blight.

2. Devs Desk - The wording of the devs desk disgusted me and I replied to as to why.

3. Portal Revamp - I saw many flaws in it and I said what I believed them to be.

4. Item attuning - Didn't understand the reasons as to why until I asked Amon directly why it was being done. Once it was explained then I understood the reasons for the change.

Summary
I don't complain for the sake of complaining, and I understand that change must happen. But I will give 'feedback' regarding changes and suggest alternatives. Am I going to quit the game? Based on current changes. Nope

[Dhalin]

Just to note...

I don't want this thread to de-evolve into "Who is considered Elite and Who Is Not".

I wasn't even really aiming the word "Elite" at Istaria; the word "Elite" is used mostly for people in 'the other game' I mentioned.

As I said above, I'm thankful that Istaria has much less of that "I'm better than you" mentality that I've seen in other games.

But it is simply human nature to feel that way sometimes, I guess. There's no way you're going to get rid of it entirely. I'm glad Istaria has less of it than most.

I really do think, though, that people should just give the devs a chance. They're trying. The portal thing was a horrible idea, and it got shot down for good reason. The devs realized this and said "OK so this isn't a very good idea". The devs were wise enough to do that.

[Guaran]

Dhalin- its not that I disagree with what you`ve said

but ()

- lets discuss the word choice:
"Eliteplayers"- I know those from other games, and I dare to say, that Istaria does not have such players, cause the game is not designed for that. Lets stay with the word " Veteranplayer".
And then there is no reason that someone says "I`m better than you are".
Only thing one could say is "I know more about the game, I have achieved more than you" But who would say so- and if- nothing bad about it ,
cause its natural.
Anyway-I have never heard one or the other

So why do vets complain faster and louder if it comes to changes or what they feel are nerfs?

Because they know more about the game than the average/casual players.
Because they have much more to loose than the average/casual players.
They loose things they have worked for hours, months or even years.
They are proud of what they possess and proud of what they`ve achieved.
They do not want to loose it.
Nothing wrong with that. Its natural- again.

One point I agree with you 100%: Threatening to push the "quit button" is not the solution.
Making suggestions, pointing out where probs might arise (from certain changes), discussing and looking for compromises- and -most important-
give the compromise a try- this is what I expect from a vet player.

From the dev`s side I expect that they provide us with informations early enough- so that is time for discussion which will, on the other hand, provide the devs with important infos too.
And I expect that out- of- favor changes will be explained and why they are necessary for the progress of the game.

LOVWYRM said it perfectly.

[Vortura]

Do not feed the troll

[Dhalin]

Do not feed the troll

Are you referring to me, may I ask?

It was never my intention to troll, my apologies if you took that the wrong way. I was merely relating my experiences from one game, to another that seems to be going through a similar (though a bit different) problem.

[Akrion]

I think Shinkuu made a couple good points as to why that may be, Dhalin. Players who may be considered 'Elite' have invested a lot of time and effort into becoming top notch, something that's seldom easy to do let alone maintain. Big changes often require these players to spend a good deal of time getting back to their previous level of skill. That's not an entirely enjoyable process.

I myself have experienced this quite a number of times in Eve Online. I played Eve for a little over 6 years starting at its launch and my primary PVP ship became a Blasterthron. Over those 6 years the way a Blasterthron was most effectively fit changed dramatically. Losing dual micro warp drives, losing the micro warp / after burner combo, the damage mod nerf, etc. It required a bit of time and in some cases a number of lost ships to come up with a new fit that was effective. Not the most enjoyable or cheap process. x3

[Vortura]

Yeah, you're trolling.

We've all had enough of Dragon vs Biped conflicts and now you're starting this Casual vs Elite / New vs Old rubbish.

So please, enough.

[Dhalin]

That's understandable.

In the aforementioned 'other game', the changes made pretty big changes to class mechanics of several classes. The stakes weren't anywhere near as high (if you die, you get a minor repair bill, and you shouldn't even die if you test your routine out on weak mobs or training dummies), but still, people complained.

I've even had people tell me "My ____ doesn't work anymore! It sucks now! It is too hard to get the hang of!" ... yet me, the casual player, was able to figure out a working system within a few hours. And I'm not the only one; I see people doing it just fine everywhere.

[Akrion]

Yeah, you're trolling.

We've all had enough of Dragon vs Biped conflicts and now you're starting this Casual vs Elite / New vs Old rubbish.

So please, enough.

Dhalin is in no way shape or form trolling.

I've even had people tell me "My ____ doesn't work anymore! It sucks now! It is too hard to get the hang of!" ... yet me, the casual player, was able to figure out a working system within a few hours. And I'm not the only one; I see people doing it just fine everywhere.

Well, there's often a difference between figuring out a working system for casual play and figuring out a working system for hard core play. In WoW, for example, the demands on someone tanking a heroic vs the demands on someone tanking a 5 man would be rather different. Same goes with Eve Online and the demands on someone PVEing vs the demands on someone PVPing.

[Frith-Rae]

Dhalin needs to come visit us at the Forum That Cannot Be Named...=)

We've been talking about this in "that other game" and in Istaria for a few weeks now - and noone's told anyone to shutup troll!

And no, Dhalin's not a troll. This is a rant forum. There are no trolls in a rant forum! :P That's like a violation of the time space continuum...lol.

Me - a "casual and complaining" player lol

[LungTien Temeraire]

Yeah, you're trolling.

We've all had enough of Dragon vs Biped conflicts and now you're starting this Casual vs Elite / New vs Old rubbish.

So please, enough.

Dhalin is not a troll, he is a dragon... I think.

[Andaras]

What Chasing and Lov Said - I 2nd and 3rd.

If anyone appears to be whining constantly.....

As for Elder Vs Elites? Huh, IMO that is Easy stuff:

ELDERS stayed with Istaria throughout its troubled life.
ELITES - Left when they couldn't get their way.

It is only through active participation and discussion that we
will get a suitable compromise for changes in Istaria. (If only
certain political factions could realize this, our Country wouldn't
be in this pickel. -- Diff topic, still a rant /Rant)

I see you have been invited to the other board to take up the torch
there... Please take the discussion to its proper home.

Sincerely,
Andaras

[Dhalin]

Dhalin needs to come visit us at the Forum That Cannot Be Named...=)

We've been talking about this in "that other game" and in Istaria for a few weeks now - and noone's told anyone to shutup troll!

And no, Dhalin's not a troll. This is a rant forum. There are no trolls in a rant forum! :P That's like a violation of the time space continuum...lol.

Me - a "casual and complaining" player lol

PM me a URL.