More Elite = More Complainy

[Akrion]

What Chasing and Lov Said - I 2nd and 3rd.

If anyone appears to be whining constantly.....

As for Elder Vs Elites? Huh, IMO that is Easy stuff:

ELDERS stayed with Istaria throughout its troubled life.
ELITES - Left when they couldn't get their way.

I know of a number who would be considered 'Elder' that have ultimately been driven away. It has nothing to do with being unable to get their way.

It is only through active participation and discussion that we
will get a suitable compromise for changes in Istaria. (If only
certain political factions could realize this, our Country wouldn't
be in this pickel. -- Diff topic, still a rant /Rant)

I see you have been invited to the other board to take up the torch
there... Please take the discussion to its proper home.

Sincerely,
Andaras

I believe this topic involves Istaria just as much as it involves any other MMO, so I don't see where its 'proper home' would be considering it's something that every MMO (hell, every game) experiences.

[Dhalin]

I know of a number who would be considered 'Elder' that have ultimately been driven away. It has nothing to do with being unable to get their way.

Everyone has their "breaking point", everyone has their core issues that must be 'good' for them to remain in the game, and everyone eventually reaches a point where they did everything, and they get bored, and they quit. Some come back after new stuff has been added, some don't.

I'm not ridiculing anyone in particular here, my main pet peeve was those people who quit over the drop of a hat without giving something a chance. If a major patch comes out, and you don't like changes made, that's your prerogative. But it look much better, if you'd at least try to get used to a change before tossing your cards back to the dealer, instead of quitting on patch day, or the day before, or even a day later, etc.

Whether or not anyone plays or quits is ultimately their decision and their right, but at least give things a chance. Say your piece before the patch comes out, they almost always allow open discussion before releasing a patch (much less than most other games do), say your piece and let them think on it. If it still makes it to Live, then there's a _reason_ why. If enough players ask, they'll explain it in detail why the decision was made.

Sometimes one may not agree with it, but at least try to see it from their end.

I guess that was mainly what I was trying to say in this topic. The other game that inspired this topic, I had people telling me "I quit!" after the first one or two *days* after the change, and they didn't even give it a chance, they didn't even try to learn the new mechanics, or anything. Their characters *were* capable of performing just as well, they just needed to learn a little.

And to the guy who said that a casual in WoW has a lot less pressure... well, that's why one *practices*.

I didn't LFD as soon as I logged in after Patch 4.0. No, I looked over my talents, glyphs, etc. Walked over to a training dummy, had some practice. I said "OK, I think I got this..." and then went out and looked for a decently challenging mob. Pulled it, and fought it, and got a feel for it. *Then* I LFD'd.

You don't go into Hardcore 25man raids as soon as a major class revamp hits Live, lol. You're supposed to _practice_ with a couple heroics, maybe normal 10man raids, etc for a day or two before you get back to what you were doing before the patch. Sheesh. Is it that hard of a concept to understand?

[LOVWYRM]

(all good Dhalin. I like your op in this thread here, I like your input in this forum, even if I disagree here and there. You are not a troll!)

[Ahael]

My 2 coppers: I am a veteran player, don't know about elites. I offer feedback to the devs if I happen to have the time to do so. I will not 'ragequit' over a few changes.

I'll rather just play the game, when I have the time to do so. Sometimes I play often, sometimes not so often.

No multiplayer/mmo/online-game I have played has ever stayed the same. Evolution is inevitable. It's either that, or face extinction. That applies both to games and their players, as well.

[SentientSeeker]

I didn't LFD as soon as ... *Then* I LFD'd.

Sorry, Dhalin, but I'm ever the eternal n00b. What does "LFD" stand for? (I tried looking it up on acronymfinder.com but did not find a good match with the context.) So ... please edumacate me


TIA,
Sent

[Dhalin]

Sorry, Dhalin, but I'm ever the eternal n00b. What does "LFD" stand for? (I tried looking it up on acronymfinder.com but did not find a good match with the context.) So ... please edumacate me


TIA,
Sent

In WoW, they added a new system last year.

It is called, simply, "Looking for Dungeon [Group]".

You hit a button (I) and it brings up this window. You tell it what sort of dungeon you want (or let it randomly choose from ones appropriate to your level and/or equipment) and click "Find Group". It asks you what roles you can fulfill in a group (Tank, Healer, or Damage-Dealer), and it places you in a queue, that everyone in the same Battlegroup (Clusters of Shards/Realms/Servers) joins.

It will group up 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 damage dealers, and teleport them to the dungeon as soon as everyone clicks the "Accept" button when the group is assembled.

That system very quickly and very massively changed the whole PvE experience.

[SentientSeeker]

Man, it seems that WoW has really changed a lot since I last played it. Thanks for the clarification, Dhalin ... I hate it when I don't know what a common acronym means


Sent

[Dhalin]

Man, it seems that WoW has really changed a lot since I last played it. Thanks for the clarification, Dhalin ... I hate it when I don't know what a common acronym means


Sent

WoW changes by leaps and bounds every year. If you're interested in the game at all, take a gander at the -huge- changes they dropped just a month ago in the Cataclysm prep-patch, and some of the things coming in Cataclysm (Dec.7).

But yeah, that's what LFD means.

[Frith-Rae]

HAHA I didn't know what LFD was exactly either, on my server in WoW (and across community websites) its referred to as LFG (looking for Group..).

So took me a second..lol . And yea, I'm frothing for the world explosions of Caty and the new old-world content hehee.

Anyway, moving on..yea..

[velveeta]

What Chasing and Lov Said - I 2nd and 3rd.

If anyone appears to be whining constantly.....

As for Elder Vs Elites? Huh, IMO that is Easy stuff:

ELDERS stayed with Istaria throughout its troubled life.
ELITES - Left when they couldn't get their way.

It is only through active participation and discussion that we
will get a suitable compromise for changes in Istaria. (If only
certain political factions could realize this, our Country wouldn't
be in this pickel. -- Diff topic, still a rant /Rant)

I see you have been invited to the other board to take up the torch
there... Please take the discussion to its proper home.

Sincerely,
Andaras

what anda sez goes for me as well, not that it really matters.....

[velveeta]

PM me a URL.

me too, please.....everyone knows i like a lively convo!

[velveeta]

My 2 coppers: I am a veteran player, don't know about elites. I offer feedback to the devs if I happen to have the time to do so. I will not 'ragequit' over a few changes.

I'll rather just play the game, when I have the time to do so. Sometimes I play often, sometimes not so often.

No multiplayer/mmo/online-game I have played has ever stayed the same. Evolution is inevitable. It's either that, or face extinction. That applies both to games and their players, as well.

so ditto on this!
devs have to make changes. that's how it works, its called evolution.
we as PLAYERS will not always like the changes. nor will we understand them all at times. this is because we don't see the whole big pic, and can only judge on our view of the game.

however, i find that the beauty of this game is that we as PLAYERS can adapt quickly. elders have lived thru the times of troubles and understand that things, good and bad, happen fast.
it is all very well to voice opinions about things, just as long as you realize those opinions are not likely to persuade the gods to turn back the course.

all i know is, better gods who make changes, even if unpopular, than gods who could give a flying fook about my home. i know, cause i been there. whether that makes me elite or elder, i will let you decide, but i consider my myself to be an elder, eternal, uber noob....

[Tathar]

This isn't meant to be anything for or against the position you're taking, Dhalin, but I feel the need to point something out.

Casual players are casual because they spend less time doing game-related stuff, including signing up for the forums where they can complain like the elites. If they're frustrated with a change, they don't complain out loud about it, they just vanish without a trace. Most of the newbies who try the game for the first time do so as casual players. Unfortunately we have so few who stick around, and I don't think the devs completely understand why. The thing is that the devs need to put in the extra effort to get the casual players to voice their grievances with the game, or else the player base is going to stay the in dumbbell-shaped distribution of old and new it currently is until it's just not possible for the devs to continue running the game.

Maybe this game needs a complete reimagining? Let's find and keep the stuff that makes Istaria good, but replace the parts that are lacking with alternatives that appeal more to the majority of today's MMO players. Maybe it involves making the game "easier" with a built-in map pack and markers pointing out where stuff is, or maybe it's updating graphics and refreshing the look and feel of the game. Maybe it's changes that require everyone to start from scratch? I don't know, but I hope the devs can come up with something.

Either way, I don't like that the only game with playable dragons is in such a state of emptiness that at peak hours there's less than 100 people on, and with most of the players on trial or demo accounts. I've stuck around for over 5 years without cancelling my subscription because Istaria has been a means of self-therapy and a world where I could look like the dragon I feel I am, but it's become so barren that the pleasure I got from seeing my inner hatchling run around and look cute has been replaced by frustration and worry for the future. Entire neighborhoods that once showed evidence of activity and life have been reclaimed into barren tracts of land, and the sheer number of people playing on no-plot demo accounts have cut deeply into the already small number of bipeds who were interested in owning plots. I am genuinely worried that tomorrow, or next week, or a few months from now there may be no more Istaria, and I don't know of anything that can replace what Istaria is to me. I hardly even play Istaria as a game anymore, and for about 3 years, I've been level 70-some on my main and T1 everything on my biped and hatchling because I was spending $13 per month just watching my dragons swish their tails about. And as long as I could derive pleasure from that by projecting myself onto those characters on the screen, I was fine with that. But then I look around at the world my characters inhabit, and it feels like it's closing in on me. There's the same amount of real estate (or as real as virtual land in a game can be) as before, but everything is empty with so few people to interact with. I can't find the pleasure I once got from the game, but I stick around anyway because I can't find anything better. All I can do is watch over the land and its new faces in the hope that they'll transition from tourist to resident, and voice my disapproval when things are pointing in a direction that results in a net loss of Istaria's population. I've even developed a system for my guild that incentivizes working in a group to complete a large or difficult task, and it seems to be helping, but there's only so much I can do on my own, and as an officer of my guild, it's become impossible for me to ignore how difficult it's become to find someone with a biped who is able to own one of the many plots available in the guild area I offered up most of my coin to obtain. I find that this game that is supposed to replace what is missing in my life, and indeed the world around me, and heal the pain of not having the real thing, is actually draining away my reserves and leaving me exhausted and stressed out. It doesn't help that I've been told second-hand that Amon's mad at me for reselling low-level ambrosia on NT for anything over 5c each in order to recover the costs of moving stuff to where it's needed. I still have nothing pleasant to say about the particulars of that information exchange, so I'll leave that there.

Anyway, the point of that long-winded rant and coming-out is that although I may complain about what Istaria's become and what Istaria still hasn't become, I don't do so out of any elistist or old guard-type response about how something would ruin my play style. I complain because the things I complain about are driving people away and forcing others to reevaluate whether it's all worth staying for, and if they leave, the game may disappear too. Either way, I'm stuck here until the game vanishes from under me, and barring something that can take its place, I can only try to postpone that date for as long as possible.

[Chasing]

Casual players are casual because they spend less time doing game-related stuff, including signing up for the forums where they can complain like the elites. If they're frustrated with a change, they don't complain out loud about it, they just vanish without a trace. Most of the newbies who try the game for the first time do so as casual players. Unfortunately we have so few who stick around, and I don't think the devs completely understand why. The thing is that the devs need to put in the extra effort to get the casual players to voice their grievances with the game, or else the player base is going to stay the in dumbbell-shaped distribution of old and new it currently is until it's just not possible for the devs to continue running the game.

Yes, I agree totally with this, there needs to be a method of capturing why an account is being cancelled, and/or if a free/trial account isn't used for a period of time an email sent out asking for feedback.

[Tathar]

Don't forget that the demo accounts are reducing the incentive to play as a biped capable of owning a plot. There's usually more humans on Chaos than all other bipeds combined. I don't know what the turnover from demo to paid account is, but I don't think it's much.

[Andaras]

Everyone has their "breaking point", everyone has their core issues that must be 'good' for them to remain in the game, and everyone eventually reaches a point where they did everything, and they get bored, and they quit. Some come back after new stuff has been added, some don't.

I'm not ridiculing anyone in particular here, my main pet peeve was those people who quit over the drop of a hat without giving something a chance. If a major patch comes out, and you don't like changes made, that's your prerogative. But it look much better, if you'd at least try to get used to a change before tossing your cards back to the dealer, instead of quitting on patch day, or the day before, or even a day later, etc.

Whether or not anyone plays or quits is ultimately their decision and their right, but at least give things a chance. Say your piece before the patch comes out, they almost always allow open discussion before releasing a patch (much less than most other games do), say your piece and let them think on it. If it still makes it to Live, then there's a _reason_ why. If enough players ask, they'll explain it in detail why the decision was made.

Thank you, that was exactly what I was trying to get at with my
example of Elder vs Elites.

Your statement about the quitting at the drop of a hat without giving the
new changes a chance? Spot On!

About having open discussion and getting detailed explaination, I'll
have to disagree.

Andaras

[Fix]

Now this is a pet peeve of mine. I fully understand your complain. You hate it when people ragequit and go nuts when games get easier because they like challanges...is that not their problem? I also detest the word 'elitist'.

I was recently having a converstion with a few others and the term 'elitist' has began to apply to EVERYONE. I know this is a little bit off but - I dislike when it is used. I think the people leaving for such reasons are more 'complainers' then 'elitists'. Elitist has become as overused as "YU HEV NO LIEF".

But to get back on topic. Yes it is annoying when one simply ragequits because of such small things and makes a public statement and even spams/flames about it. We would not like such a thing. But I (personally) find Istaria a hard game. There's plenty of challange to go around. And even so , it is a VERY casual game. Things take time, they take effort and so on.

Make what you will of that.

[Chasing]

But I (personally) find Istaria a hard game.

Why do you find Istaria a hard game?

[Dhalin]

Now this is a pet peeve of mine. I fully understand your complain. You hate it when people ragequit and go nuts when games get easier because they like challanges...is that not their problem? I also detest the word 'elitist'.

I was recently having a converstion with a few others and the term 'elitist' has began to apply to EVERYONE. I know this is a little bit off but - I dislike when it is used. I think the people leaving for such reasons are more 'complainers' then 'elitists'. Elitist has become as overused as "YU HEV NO LIEF".

I don't know about other people, but me personally, I define "Elitist" as:

1). A person who is very demanding of his or her own groupmates. They simply must be wearing THE best gear, with THE best modifications, and MUST have their character set up in the exact "correct" and most min-maxed way, otherwise they are "worthless" or not worth grouping with, or not worth "carrying". These types of people are usually sticking their noses up in the air at everyone who isn't wearing the absolute best gear, who doesn't play exactly right, etc etc.

2). A person who thinks that everything in the game should be as absolutely hard as possible, that there should be no quarter given past the "newbie" areas, that everything should take as long as possible, and be as hard as possible to obtain, or near it. These types of people complain anytime an annoyance is removed from the game, anytime the devs make it "easier" for something to obtain, and outright complain when a newer player is able to get something easier than the person in question got earlier, before the change. These same people are also those who usually ragequit over these types of things.

But I (personally) find Istaria a hard game.

The main difficulties of Istaria are:

1). Having enough patience to do the sheer repetition to get anywhere,

2). Having to seek external sources of information just to know where the heck you're supposed to go/what the heck you're supposed to do/how the heck you're supposed to do something. Heck, even LOOTING requires complex macros that are not explained anywhere in-game, that is, if you want to do it somewhat efficiently and not get killed trying to do it. If you want to take that even FURTHER, you ALSO need to set up a new macro command in-game, and you have to dig through the forums to find the information to do that AND it isn't really a "supported" thing, either. All of that, JUST to loot efficiently?

3). Finding people to get some of the major quest mobs done that can't be done solo, aka, ARoP. I've heard many a discussion about dragons having to wait days, sometimes a week or more having to schedule around everyone's times to get the Rift mobs done. Grouping is an important part of an MMO, I understand that... but an MMO with a very limited population, I think mayhaps the mobs required for quests like that, should require somewhat fewer people, given the lower population, especially on Order.

4). Ridiculous respawns and/or mobs that refuse to spawn until you're in the middle of the spawn area (then they spawn ontop of you all at once) and/or ridiculous mob density where there are 30-40 mobs within a 20 yard radius.

5). The lack of a "Cast-on-Self-Without-Deselecting-My-Target" ability when trying to heal yourself and then re-acquire the target you were doing damage to, instead of a full health target.

Those have to be the top-5 sources of "challenge" in this game.

Note how only -1- of those involves things like tactical combat and problem-solving (and is also a sad-but-true shortcoming of a low player population), and 3 of those are design flaws/oversights and 1 is the result of an old, archaic MMORPG model that nobody uses anymore (that we're forced to, because the amount of overhauls needed to make any serious changes to the game in this area are either impossible due to the engine, or would likely obliterate what's left of the veteran players).

[Frith-Rae]

I agree with the above reasons as I too consider Istaria a "hard" (as in Hardercore..) game.

And the number one reason, above all others Dhalin mentioned(which I do agree with).

But I was going to quote your question "Why do you find Istaria Hard" and answer with this:

Grind. Repetition. Grind. Reptition. Grind. Reptition.

Makes this the hardest game I've ever tried to stick with. If that was addressed and at least somewhat fixed, this game woudl cease to be "hard" to play and be more of a pleasure.

And its that exact thing I see driving the most amount of people away. Because the games coming out at this point in time disguise the grind far far far far better, or have very little feeling of it at all.

If to you that means its "dumbed down" so be it (you in general). If "grind" is your definition of "challenge" so be it.

But if that is true, the consign yourself to playing a "barely alive" game that remains hopefully in the black.

Because the tolerance for "Grind" and getting very little results is lowering by every new game that goes live.

Grind. Grind makes Istaria Hard. Period.