More Elite = More Complainy

[Dhalin]

Wow Frith...

We better stop agreeing so much, or people'll start whispering about us.

*grins, just kidding*

It is nice, though, that *someone* shares some of my thoughts and opinions.

[Chasing]

*Chuckles*

Actually what I wanted to find out from that question was what did Fix find difficult about the game (he/she is a relatively new player so may provide a fresh perspective).

Grind.....erm.....yea. Work out an effective method of 'hiding' or 'masking' grind behind content and you can probably become a very rich in RL quite quickly.

[LOVWYRM]

ok, kill me for that.
And I know you will.

Grind?
Levl adventure= grind?
The dragon trainer sends you from one mob to the other. Each of them needs a new tactic. Each new one is a new challange. Kill 50 of them and you know how-to.
I call that improvement. Or experience. But not grind.
Using the trophies from this fights levelled my new hatchie faster than it was intended-

Levl. craft?
Ok- sometimes its a bit boring- but for me who is always that busy (still)
I often enjoy that grinding and use it to relax a bit.
Using craft scales and potions makes it much easier for Luna than it was for my two other ancients.
And ahh- what a good feeling to make spells and scales myself.

In my opinion the prob is something else:
If you stress yourself with gaining levels, if you can`t find fun in playing a mmorpg at lower levels than 100/100/100 or 278/GM
than everything is grind on your way to that.
Or if you think that big success needs small effort, only because its a game.

[Dhalin]

ok, kill me for that.
And I know you will.

Grind?
Levl adventure= grind?
The dragon trainer sends you from one mob to the other. Each of them needs a new tactic. Each new one is a new challange. Kill 50 of them and you know how-to.
I call that improvement. Or experience. But not grind.
Using the trophies from this fights levelled my new hatchie faster than it was intended-

Levl. craft?
Ok- sometimes its a bit boring- but for me who is always that busy (still)
I often enjoy that grinding and use it to relax a bit.
Using craft scales and potions makes it much easier for Luna than it was for my two other ancients.
And ahh- what a good feeling to make spells and scales myself.

In my opinion the prob is something else:
If you stress yourself with gaining levels, if you can`t find fun in playing a mmorpg at lower levels than 100/100/100 or 278/GM
than everything is grind on your way to that.
Or if you think that big success needs small effort, only because its a game.

Nobody's gonna kill ya, Lov...

You have some good points and all, it isn't the "grind", but more the "repetition" and the not-so-masking of it. The DRAG adventure quests and the fact dragons level DRAG so fast, is yet another reason why Dragons are the most enjoyable adventure school to level. Now, if only bipeds had some 5-6 class quests every 10 school levels! They need it worse than dragons do, considering not only do they have way more schools, but they stop gaining XP from mob kills after awhile, and trophy farming has got to be quite boring (I tried doing it to speed my biped up a little... blargh! Trophies drop when you're grinding XP from em, but when you come back to farm trophies then they never drop lol).

You see, all MMORPGs (even the newest ones out!) have grind. They must, to keep you playing. But yet, they mask grind by making you do a variety of tasks. Istaria -is- getting better at it on the adventure side with adding quests; I've said this before.

I wasn't really complaining when I said the biggest challenge in this game is patience; I was merely answering the question of "What is Hard about Istaria?"

Grind.....erm.....yea. Work out an effective method of 'hiding' or 'masking' grind behind content and you can probably become a very rich in RL quite quickly

Blizzard just called; they wanted you to know that their monthly income rivals the GDP of some small nations.

[Fix]

Why do you find Istaria a hard game?

For all the right reasons personally. Refare to what Dhalin said

[LOVWYRM]

Dhalin, I was referring more to Frith`s post.

I nearly agree with all you`ve said why Istaria is a hard game.
Esp. for newbies.

[Fix]

Dhalin, I was referring more to Frith`s post.

I nearly agree with all you`ve said why Istaria is a hard game.
Esp. for newbies.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

-AGREED-. I literally went insane during my first few days as a newbie! I found it very frustrating. But I got used to it. >: I somehow do NOT want the difficulty to be toned down.

[Dhalin]

Dhalin, I was referring more to Frith`s post.

I nearly agree with all you`ve said why Istaria is a hard game.
Esp. for newbies.

OH!

lol, I'm sorry.

I completely misunderstood you... must be the vicodin+surgery.

[Chasing]

Blizzard just called; they wanted you to know that their monthly income rivals the GDP of some small nations.

*chuckles*

Yes, but........how can I say this without swearing.............

WOW SUCKS :P

For lots of reasons

[LungTien Temeraire]

Though I haven't WoW myself, and doesn't plan to play it, I'd advise you to consider that 10,000,000 of players are playing it and likely enjoying it.
WoW has bad points, indeed, but it also has good ones, if it wasn't the case, there wouldn't be that many players.

[velveeta]

*chuckles*

Yes, but........how can I say this without swearing.............

WOW SUCKS :P

For lots of reasons

ditto this all day

[joemarra052075]

Blizzard just called; they wanted you to know that their monthly income rivals the GDP of some small nations.

So does their population...and their currency has as much backing and basis in fact as the US currency does. It's only problem is that it's value is based on the US Dollar and that is based on....nothing.

[Frith-Rae]

ditto this all day

ok then how does this feel:

ISTARIA SUCKS!

Constructive? Make you feel like you need to defend something you enjoy? Exactly? Can we stop now with this blather? Thanks.

Now on to the real point - Lov I wont draw and quarter you, but I think you know you see things through rose colored glasses . I'm happy you think killing 50 mobs is necessary to learn how to kill the mob, and that you find killing 50 things NOT a bit of a grind.

I do. I think its quite excessive to have quests to kill more than 20 or 25 of the same mob, and that's pushing it. I feel this way in ALL games though, but I will also add Istaria's one of the last ones who has numbers in quests this big. At least its starting to be a minority of quests =) Really 10 or 15 should be quite enough. And if you find you want to make a mechanic where kiling 50 is necessary because you don't have enough quests to level then one should be focusing on more quests and less "kill 50".

EQII pisses me off this way as well, I can spend 5 or 10 quests going back and kiling the SAME GROUP OF MOBS ove and over and over again - and it digusts me and I quit playing when I can't take it anymore. The difference is I have something els eto do in EQII when the repetition gets to me - in Istaria I have nothing else but to change the reptition to something else. Still frustrating.

Crafting is the essence of grind in Istaria and LSH is the essence of that essence. Sorry I find it mindnumbling boring to sit and craft thousands and thousands of bricks in an hour to have 5 units to stick on a lairchamber and have nothing at all happen for my work. You may find it relaxing, I find taking a nap or reading relaxing. But not that. Its why, as I've stated before, I can only play IStaria when I have something else to do because the game by itself, for crafting, is booorrrinngggg. And that's a sad statement if I'm only playing the game because I can multitask.

If you stress yourself with gaining levels, if you can`t find fun in playing a mmorpg at lower levels than 100/100/100 or 278/GM
than everything is grind on your way to that.
Or if you think that big success needs small effort, only because its a game.

Gaining levels? HA! I've been level 90 for years...YEARS. Clearly this is not my motivation. I have maybe 2 million hoarde, MAYBE, at level 90. Also something I don't give a flip about. The reason I haven't bothered - because I see no point! What changes at 100? I have two new areas to play in hundreds of times? Nope, no point...

Grind has nothign to do with big success or small effort. Its not effort to grind, its just tolerance for boredom.

The only reason this game continues to get my support is because I can RP as a dragon. It isn't for the mechanics, or the gameplay, or the content.

Now I will say it definitely HAS IMPROVED in key areas throughout the years, as you say, I'm an oldie too. I remember when you had nothing to do but kill wolves to level from 70-100. Yes, things are better.

But the key mechanics behind a few things has not, and pobaly will not, change.

And if you continue to feel there is no problem with that - ITS OK!! That's FINE! (not yeling, empahsis there lol). But for those who are content with the way the "grind" is masked realize that you must also be content that he game will NOT GROW much more than it is currently because current gamers (for good or for bad, and yes there is good there) aren't going to tolerate it in high numbers. A few here and there absolutely, but if you aren't willing to (you as in general) to change things then the game gets no bigger in population.

And if you're fine with that - hey that's fine too!

[Chasing]

Though I haven't WoW myself, and doesn't plan to play it, I'd advise you to consider that 10,000,000 of players are playing it and likely enjoying it.
WoW has bad points, indeed, but it also has good ones, if it wasn't the case, there wouldn't be that many players.

True, I'd love to know the age demographic though. Wonder how many of the playerbase are not under 12 and play WoW for PVE and not PVP.

This is where you can't compare Istaria to WoW (or WoW clones). Since Istaria falls under 'niche' and 'sandbox' probably better to compare to other MMO's of that genre.

*Think I'm derailing now*

[LungTien Temeraire]

I admit killing 50+ mobs can be a lot (like the 100 ruby golems at Lesser Aradoth, but they aren't hard, or the two dragon quests requiring killing 40-50 spiders each, or the quest in which we kill around 50 ice or snow beetles, which is long as they use icy armor ). But in these cases, that can be made funnier and faster with the help of one or two other players, I think. I always enjoyed killing mobs with other players on my side, rather than soloing the mobs... I don't count how many times I helped other players to kill redbacked spiders (the 50 to kill for quests), and it was faster and going better than doing it alone, So, if you have to kill a lot of mobs, or hard and long to kill ones, or rare to find ones, you know what to do
About helping new players, low-level characters, no need to join him/her in a group to help, staying behind and ensuring his.her hp doesn't crumble, preventing too many mobs to attack the new one, and ensuring he/she takes the loot is largely enough, I think, as it lets the new player train to fight and do the quests.

[Dhalin]

@Frith:

You know what's worse than being asked to kill 50 mobs?

Being asked to kill 50 mobs that spawn amongst other mobs.

Like.. "Go kill me Red Pigs" and you go out there and you see 1 red pig for every 10 pigs around, and they are all aggressive.

Don't you just hate that?

lol.

That's the kinda feeling I got on that one snow (or was that ice?) beetle quest, I forget which. I think I remember reading they changed the spawn rates on them though, so hopefully it ain't that bad anymore.

[Frith-Rae]

I wil agree that yes, Istaria is "niche" and WoW is "mainstream" and thus it IS comparing apples to oranges. Istaria will never be where WoW is (wether it would want to or not lol), and WoW probably would never be at Istaria level (cuz they'd probably shut it down or make it f2p if it were to get to that point lol).

But I will comment on :

True, I'd love to know the age demographic though. Wonder how many of the playerbase are not under 12 and play WoW for PVE and not PVP.

They have. The vast majority of WoW players are above the age of 21 (with quite a large chunk over the age of 28). It is also almost 50/50 male and female. And I would argue the vast majority play for PVE - WoW's PVP is an afterthought, even the devs say and are OK with this. There is way way way way more PVE content, and most "hardcore" PVPers wouldnt' be in WoW - they'd be in a more exclusively PVP game. So I'd make the argument that PVPers make up a good chunk, but still a minority chunk.

Now back fruther off topic (cuz at this point I think it doesnt matter anymore LOL)

Being asked to kill 50 mobs that spawn amongst other mobs.

Like.. "Go kill me Red Pigs" and you go out there and you see 1 red pig for every 10 pigs around, and they are all aggressive.

Don't you just hate that?

Yes. Yes I do. EQII does it as well. Along with the "kill XYZ random mob to get that one named mob to spawn randomly" and "XYZ named mob you need gets killed and you have to wait 20+ minutes for respawn."

The "old hat" MMOs still subscribe to this, to me, outdated questing model. The "new hat" games - WoW and later - take out these obnoxious mechanics. The oudated model is just a time waster, an artificial (to me) way of making a quest last longer and substitute time for "content".

Where as the "new hat" games realizde that people don't find that killing 24 random pigs waiting on Bob Pig to spawn is NOT fun. Realize that spawn camping is NOT fun. So they don't ask the player to do it. They Put Bob Pig there in that little cave behind some regular mobs you have to work your way to to get there, but you KNOW he's there in that little cave waiting on you (and not gee how many mobs do I have to kill?20?40?50?). ANd then if someone races through the mobs and kills Bob Pig before you, loe and behole he spawns not 2 minutes later.

To me that's "removing the suck" and not "dumbing down." I've sat in EQII waiting 20-30 minutes (and longer) for a named spawn to finally spawn, killing every single mob in the area for that time wondering if "this kill" would make the stupid named spawn I needed for the frickin quest! GAH! STUPID!

Quest mechanics I'm glad to see that are on their way OUT! Along with "kill 50" XYZ and "you only need ot kill 10 but when you get there you find out you have to kill 50 of everything else to get that 10 you want."

Yup! ON their way out! And in the immortal words of Tosh "And for that, we thank you!"

[Dhalin]

Nice to see another person who has "woken up and smelled the roses" so to speak.

As I've been saying for months, I'm not wanting everything on a Silver Platter, but at the same time, I don't need to be treated like I'm a little kid who doesn't know any better.

Making me kill 100 rats, bears, whatever for a quest isn't a test of my ability, nor is it done to make the game "hard". It is done to make me waste time, it is done to make it look like there is "content". Newer games give more variety of tasks, but yet still take quite a bit of time to get from Point A to Point B. The difference is, newer games give you more things to do while you move from Point A to Point B, and older games have you yawning in boredom as you repeat the same robotic tasks several dozen, to several hundred times before you reach Point B.

I enjoy things that test my skill as a player. If that mob is throwing spells at me, and there's flame geysers on the ground, and I gotta run over and throw switches to manipulate objects in the room, while dealing damage to the guy, while keeping myself healed, that's fun!

Meanwhile, if I run into a guy who's got 10 million health, I'm just yawning away as my only challenge is being prepared with the right gear/levels/etc, and keeping the heals coming until he eventually dies half an hour later....

Edit: Another thing I'm loving about newer MMORPGs:

Some newer MMORPGs feature things that can be done in a short amount of time, though they take many repetitions. WoW has this, and I'm sure it isn't the only one (I've heard of other, similar things). They are called 'Daily Quest'. A repeatable quest that is only possible to be done once per day. It is repetitious, but you only do it once a day, and they tend to be fairly quick, short and simple tasks, and the game limits you to 25 of those per day.

I just did one of my paladins' Cooking and Fishing dailies, as well as her inscription research (which lets her learn new recipes, but only do-able once a day). They gave her about 3.5% of a levelup, and took about 5-10 minutes to do. Nice thing about that, is I can easily squeeze that in before going to work, while I'm checking mail, etc etc. maybe in about 45 days or so, those dailies will produce a levelup, along with the other rewards it gives (small amounts of skill increases, a small amount of money, etc).

Istaria, it is possible to log a character on and do 10 minutes of crafting, true, but you'd have to log the character out at the field, with everything on them, ready to go, and even then... 10 min ain't gonna give you much.

I know FFXI was lousy for this; there's absolutely nothing you could do in 10 minutes because it takes almost that long to log in, lol.

[joemarra052075]

I admit killing 50+ mobs can be a lot (like the 100 ruby golems at Lesser Aradoth, but they aren't hard, or the two dragon quests requiring killing 40-50 spiders each, or the quest in which we kill around 50 ice or snow beetles, which is long as they use icy armor ). But in these cases, that can be made funnier and faster with the help of one or two other players, I think. I always enjoyed killing mobs with other players on my side, rather than soloing the mobs... I don't count how many times I helped other players to kill redbacked spiders (the 50 to kill for quests), and it was faster and going better than doing it alone, So, if you have to kill a lot of mobs, or hard and long to kill ones, or rare to find ones, you know what to do
About helping new players, low-level characters, no need to join him/her in a group to help, staying behind and ensuring his.her hp doesn't crumble, preventing too many mobs to attack the new one, and ensuring he/she takes the loot is largely enough, I think, as it lets the new player train to fight and do the quests.

Lol I earned the title of Exterminater for killing 75 Ulnas beetles

[joemarra052075]

Nice to see another person who has "woken up and smelled the roses" so to speak.

As I've been saying for months, I'm not wanting everything on a Silver Platter, but at the same time, I don't need to be treated like I'm a little kid who doesn't know any better.

Making me kill 100 rats, bears, whatever for a quest isn't a test of my ability, nor is it done to make the game "hard". It is done to make me waste time, it is done to make it look like there is "content". Newer games give more variety of tasks, but yet still take quite a bit of time to get from Point A to Point B. The difference is, newer games give you more things to do while you move from Point A to Point B, and older games have you yawning in boredom as you repeat the same robotic tasks several dozen, to several hundred times before you reach Point B.

I enjoy things that test my skill as a player. If that mob is throwing spells at me, and there's flame geysers on the ground, and I gotta run over and throw switches to manipulate objects in the room, while dealing damage to the guy, while keeping myself healed, that's fun!

Meanwhile, if I run into a guy who's got 10 million health, I'm just yawning away as my only challenge is being prepared with the right gear/levels/etc, and keeping the heals coming until he eventually dies half an hour later....

Edit: Another thing I'm loving about newer MMORPGs:

Some newer MMORPGs feature things that can be done in a short amount of time, though they take many repetitions. WoW has this, and I'm sure it isn't the only one (I've heard of other, similar things). They are called 'Daily Quest'. A repeatable quest that is only possible to be done once per day. It is repetitious, but you only do it once a day, and they tend to be fairly quick, short and simple tasks, and the game limits you to 25 of those per day.

I just did one of my paladins' Cooking and Fishing dailies, as well as her inscription research (which lets her learn new recipes, but only do-able once a day). They gave her about 3.5% of a levelup, and took about 5-10 minutes to do. Nice thing about that, is I can easily squeeze that in before going to work, while I'm checking mail, etc etc. maybe in about 45 days or so, those dailies will produce a levelup, along with the other rewards it gives (small amounts of skill increases, a small amount of money, etc).

Istaria, it is possible to log a character on and do 10 minutes of crafting, true, but you'd have to log the character out at the field, with everything on them, ready to go, and even then... 10 min ain't gonna give you much.

I know FFXI was lousy for this; there's absolutely nothing you could do in 10 minutes because it takes almost that long to log in, lol.

God I hate the daily's. Doing those for decent equipment to see the end game content...after I had maxed out my level, killed WoW for me.