More Elite = More Complainy

[Dhalin]

God I hate the daily's. Doing those for decent equipment to see the end game content...after I had maxed out my level, killed WoW for me.

Hmm, I shoulda specified a little better.

Forcing people to do dailies = bad
Having the dailies there as an option = good

Now, there's never really a time where you *must* do dailies to get equipment to try endgame content, but if you know your way around the game and/or have some good friends, it is possible (however, not very feasible) to skip said dailies if you hated doing them that much.

The Daily Quest system gave people a muchly-needed way to earn money, experience, and items solo instead of making everything require groups. Before the Daily Quest system was introduced, once you had exhausted the world of quests, there was nothing more you could do solo, no ways of making money beyond farming items/selling on the AH, or just plain aimlessly killing mobs.

There were no ways of gaining equipment, unless you did dungeons (which required groups).

So, the Daily Quest system was a good addition. BUT, they decided that to run dungeons, you must be wearing the stuff gained from it, or close-to, to be effective. That's where they made their mistake, esp with this newer expansion, IMO. They should have made the first few dungeons a little more accessible, for those who didn't feel like doing dailies.

[joemarra052075]

Hmm, I shoulda specified a little better.

Forcing people to do dailies = bad
Having the dailies there as an option = good

Now, there's never really a time where you *must* do dailies to get equipment to try endgame content, but if you know your way around the game and/or have some good friends, it is possible (however, not very feasible) to skip said dailies if you hated doing them that much.

The Daily Quest system gave people a muchly-needed way to earn money, experience, and items solo instead of making everything require groups. Before the Daily Quest system was introduced, once you had exhausted the world of quests, there was nothing more you could do solo, no ways of making money beyond farming items/selling on the AH, or just plain aimlessly killing mobs.

There were no ways of gaining equipment, unless you did dungeons (which required groups).

So, the Daily Quest system was a good addition. BUT, they decided that to run dungeons, you must be wearing the stuff gained from it, or close-to, to be effective. That's where they made their mistake, esp with this newer expansion, IMO. They should have made the first few dungeons a little more accessible, for those who didn't feel like doing dailies.

with Wrath of the lich king in order to do ICC and fight Arthus you would need a full set of gear gained from completing daily dungeon runs and raids ad nauseum. It started feeling more like a job than a game.....mining slate when you first get the ability to mine it feels like less of a grind than that did.

[Frith-Rae]

Lol I earned the title of Exterminater for killing 75 Ulnas beetles

LOL yes exactly though! Its GREAT to have things like kill 75/100/200/10,000 (Yup ten thousand! that's right!) for things like titles or fluff items/pets/gear/whatever fluffs.

Perfectly great way to give a little something.

But to use "kill 75" as a quest - UGG! NOES!

And yes I'm still working on the beetle title myself, every time I login I try to kill at least 10 beetles that day (because more than 10 has me banging my head on the keyboard due to how frustrating fighting is for me - and yes we're talking about level 20 beetles and a level 90 dragon..its the engine.)

God I hate the daily's. Doing those for decent equipment to see the end game content...after I had maxed out my level, killed WoW for me.

Not sure what Dailies you felt you HAD to do. I see any end game and I do, or do not, chose to do dailies. Nothing I've ever felt was required to see anything (and I've seen it all so far..).

But likek anything in a game - you can choose to do them or not. I like Dailies being added as another option to acheive the same ends. Rarely have they been the "only way" to do something (outside of genuinely fluff content like Argent Tournament). But when it came to "required" things to get elsewhere, I dont remember dailies ever being required in any type of grind fashion (i.e. you may have to do them all once to open up content but after doing them once you're done..)??

Maybe I'm forgetting - I like them to speed up faction/tradeskill growth, fluff stuff like pets and mounts, and GOLD! CASH!! mUHAHAHAHA!

[Frith-Rae]

Oh I see you are meaning daily dungeon stuf.

That's not a daily quest. There was, and still is, other ways to get equipment than doing dailies.

Daily DUNGEON runnign is different. And no you weren't required to do that every day. You could run a dungeon once a week and still gear up. Slower yes, but there was nothign that said "Cannot enter unles you've done one dungeon a week for three weeks".

Sorry you felt it pressured you or something - but that's the thing. It is still a CHOICE to do such things. And in Caty you don't have to do any dailies at all to get into raids. You DO have to run dungeons, yes.

But that's how all games work. EQII, LOTR, heck even Vanilla WoW "Raids" required you to go run dungeons to get gear to go into the harder stuff. They ALL require that.

Wether you feel you need to be runig every day or not is on you. My guild acheives content just fine and we have ONE night a week we run heroics as a raid group right now. WIll we take longer? Sure. But we'll get there - yup. Don't care to be first, that's a choice. We'll get our gear when we get it - and we'll get into those raids, and we'll see content.

But no, nothing is required to be done every day to do that.

[joemarra052075]

guess that's one reason I perfer leveling to endgame

[Chasing]

guess that's one reason I perfer leveling to endgame

Here is an interesting question

At what point does a player consider themselves at endgame (in relation to Istaria)?

[joemarra052075]

Here is an interesting question

At what point does a player consider themselves at endgame (in relation to Istaria)?

I have no idea at this point *grin*

[Dhalin]

There is no real "endgame", but Biped leveling is to the point where that it is very close to "never-ending", if you want to get all schools to 100.

I suppose you could say Dralnok's Doom is "Endgame", but yet, from what I understand, other than a few repeatable quests and a few difficult mobs, there really isn't that much in the doom once you get some of the stuff from there done? There's a few epic mobs scattered about that require decent-sized groups of people to kill, etc, but otherwise I don't think Istaria *has* an "endgame".

Would be kinda nice to see one, though, but again, the game's engine can make things difficult. If there is a way, I'm sure VI will find it. They seem pretty resourceful and good at jury-rigging things using their current tools.

[Frith-Rae]

guess that's one reason I perfer leveling to endgame

Well that's just it Joe. You still level to end game. You LEVEL to end game in every game.

The question there is, depending on the game, what you can do "at" end game and wether such content is Tiered all on its own.

In Istaria, endgame is one "tier" so to speak. You get to 100 as a dragon, (or whatever it is when you're done multiclassing as a biped lol) and you are at end game. Your endgame then is either - building hoarde, crafting, or killing the same monsters repeatedly for personal reasons =D.

Wheras in EQII or WOW the endgame is literally the beginnign of another game. The endgame-game . You start in on dungeons, and then once you have enough gear, you then move on to raids. ANd there are levels of raids. You have to do level 1 of raids to get to level 2 of raids (different places to run) to get to level 3 of raids and so on. This way you have the option of either staying at any level (you can stop at level 1 and never go anywhere else), or you can keep "leveling" so to speak through more content.

Istaria just has the "level 1" and once you've done it all once - you've literally "beaten" the game so to speak. Its only those who are interested in crafting, title building, helping friends out forever, or alts that will continue to engage themselves in the game.

Whereas most other gamers, having not grown up on such a system - are expecting max level to just open up a whole bunch of more content. The idea that "the fun starts at end game" can be true for some people, and for some games. I personally have fun the whole journey or I never get to end game but that's me (and that's in WoW, Istaria, LOTR, EQII, AoC, WAR, Rift, all of them forever..)

I don't see either system as better or worse than another. Just different *shrugs* I personally prefer the idea that hitting end game doesn't mean "run out" of content (the way I feel Istaria hits a wall there), and I like the idea of greater tiers of content beyond "max level" simply because it gives me more stuff to do even if I'm at level 100 and it gives me new things to explore and learn about.

But again, that's me.

[joemarra052075]

Well that's just it Joe. You still level to end game. You LEVEL to end game in every game.

The question there is, depending on the game, what you can do "at" end game and wether such content is Tiered all on its own.

In Istaria, endgame is one "tier" so to speak. You get to 100 as a dragon, (or whatever it is when you're done multiclassing as a biped lol) and you are at end game. Your endgame then is either - building hoarde, crafting, or killing the same monsters repeatedly for personal reasons =D.

Wheras in EQII or WOW the endgame is literally the beginnign of another game. The endgame-game . You start in on dungeons, and then once you have enough gear, you then move on to raids. ANd there are levels of raids. You have to do level 1 of raids to get to level 2 of raids (different places to run) to get to level 3 of raids and so on. This way you have the option of either staying at any level (you can stop at level 1 and never go anywhere else), or you can keep "leveling" so to speak through more content.

Istaria just has the "level 1" and once you've done it all once - you've literally "beaten" the game so to speak. Its only those who are interested in crafting, title building, helping friends out forever, or alts that will continue to engage themselves in the game.

Whereas most other gamers, having not grown up on such a system - are expecting max level to just open up a whole bunch of more content. The idea that "the fun starts at end game" can be true for some people, and for some games. I personally have fun the whole journey or I never get to end game but that's me (and that's in WoW, Istaria, LOTR, EQII, AoC, WAR, Rift, all of them forever..)

I don't see either system as better or worse than another. Just different *shrugs* I personally prefer the idea that hitting end game doesn't mean "run out" of content (the way I feel Istaria hits a wall there), and I like the idea of greater tiers of content beyond "max level" simply because it gives me more stuff to do even if I'm at level 100 and it gives me new things to explore and learn about.

But again, that's me.

Ok I should be specific. I don't like WoW's endgame

[LOVWYRM]

Endgame for Flame and me means

-our main chars are outmaxed and perfectly equipped, have all spells/abilities that are available.
- our plots and lairs are build- only changes/upgrades have to be done
- we have enough resources/comps stored to make new spells/gear/ scales
without having to spend days or more to get it all together
- we can fight even the hardest mobs alone or in group
- we have or can go for all "epic" items that are ingame
- we have enough money in case it should be needed somewhen^^
- we have the time to help others
- we are experienced enough to find bugs
- we can start to level a new char
- we can fight/craft just for fun, not thinking:" I`d rather should do*insert*"
- and most important of all: We are part of that community, have old friends and have time to find new ones.

That said, we are playing endgame for several years now.
We`ve never been bored, and still have lots to do and more goals to achieve.

[AmonGwareth]

One thing I have found in many years of playing MMOs and also other multiplayer games (such as Diablo2 or pick an RTS) is that games that you find boring are often not boring if you find friends to play with.

For example, I used to play Lotro quite a bit. It can be a very fun game. But, after a while I became very very bored. Why? Most of my friends left the game or had different times they played and so I ended up solo'ing most of the time. This can carry you for a while, but most multiplayer games are more fun when you have others around with you. You can level faster, complete quests faster, build faster, you might not notice the grind (and every MMO has grind, whatever its name and player base).

So, for those who are bored or tired of the grind or can't find things to do, try grouping up with folks. Do something together. It might just be the break you need.

[Dragonboy]

3). Finding people to get some of the major quest mobs done that can't be done solo, aka, ARoP. I've heard many a discussion about dragons having to wait days, sometimes a week or more having to schedule around everyone's times to get the Rift mobs done. Grouping is an important part of an MMO, I understand that... but an MMO with a very limited population, I think mayhaps the mobs required for quests like that, should require somewhat fewer people, given the lower population, especially on Order.

The earlier part of ARoP aka crafting your ancient scale…Thistleface can be done with 2 adults dragons maybe solo as well (but I never managed it), Umyarr can be done solo with a lot lot lot of luck, but why bother when 2 or more dragons can take him down. Only the Rift run requires a “large” if not full group, which can be annoying that is true…

You have some good points and all, it isn't the "grind", but more the "repetition" and the not-so-masking of it. The DRAG adventure quests and the fact dragons level DRAG so fast, is yet another reason why Dragons are the most enjoyable adventure school to level. Now, if only bipeds had some 5-6 class quests every 10 school levels! They need it worse than dragons do, considering not only do they have way more schools, but they stop gaining XP from mob kills after awhile, and trophy farming has got to be quite boring (I tried doing it to speed my biped up a little... blargh! Trophies drop when you're grinding XP from em, but when you come back to farm trophies then they never drop lol).

About a year ago a player made a suggestion about this… Only after a few posts the thread died out.

[Dhalin]

The earlier part of ARoP aka crafting your ancient scale…Thistleface can be done with 2 adults dragons maybe solo as well (but I never managed it), Umyarr can be done solo with a lot lot lot of luck, but why bother when 2 or more dragons can take him down. Only the Rift run requires a “large” if not full group, which can be annoying that is true…

That's what I meant -- the Rift part.

I've heard that it is a royal PITA to collect enough people to get it done on Order.

With the low population and the fact that the Rift is dragon-only, and the fact that Istaria has people all around the globe, makes it even harder. Gotta find a time when everyone can be online, doesn't mind taking off from their RL/other online activities/other Istarian activities to come and do the Rift.

Challenge is good, but not when the challenge is in merely getting the people together to make an attempt. Then, if you attempt it and fail, then what? You gotta go through all that again?

What if you get everyone together, and a person or two either has an emergency RL, or they get tired, or their ISP starts dropping their connection, or their PC starts crashing... then the delays happen, then people start getting tired of the waiting around, and before you know it, you got a ruined night with not much to show for it.

About a year ago a player made a suggestion about this… Only after a few posts the thread died out.

I know suggestions have been made, but you know what? It is getting to be lately, that I hate posting in the suggestions board. It doesn't matter WHAT the suggestion is, you've always got some troll ready to step up and ram his opinions down your throat over every little thing. You ask for something as basic and simple as, I dunno, a right-click to loot without having to go through a menu and it is "OMG YOU WANT IT TOO EASY OMG YOU ARE GOING TO TURN ISTARIA INTO WOW OMG OMG OMG OMG NOOOOOO!!!!!" and people start nerdraging over something itty-bitty tiny that shouldn't even BE an issue in the first place. Some people seem to think that struggling to control your UI should be part of the game's challenge, instead of... ya know, giving us creative AI mobs or some-such?

That might be why a lot of players just stopped bothering to post in Suggestions anymore. I know, I keep my own Suggestions posts to a minimum when I possibly can and I cringe every time I hit the send post button, wondering how many of the Trolls are going to pop up and start vehemently protesting against every slight little change.

[Dragonboy]

What if you get everyone together, and a person or two either has an emergency RL, or they get tired, or their ISP starts dropping their connection, or their PC starts crashing... then the delays happen, then people start getting tired of the waiting around, and before you know it, you got a ruined night with not much to show for it.

Seen that happen as well on Chaos, a few hours of waiting and then in the end nothing happens. Although can understand that on a lower population server like Order that happens nearly all the time. Maybe there is a way of planning for multiple dragons doing rift run. It is a shame I cannot clone my character to be on Order as well… Always like a good rift run (although I always seem to get lost in that place).

I know suggestions have been made, but you know what? It is getting to be lately, that I hate posting in the suggestions board. It doesn't matter WHAT the suggestion is, you've always got some troll ready to step up and ram his opinions down your throat over every little thing. You ask for something as basic and simple as, I dunno, a right-click to loot without having to go through a menu and it is "OMG YOU WANT IT TOO EASY OMG YOU ARE GOING TO TURN ISTARIA INTO WOW OMG OMG OMG OMG NOOOOOO!!!!!" and people start nerdraging over something itty-bitty tiny that shouldn't even BE an issue in the first place. Some people seem to think that struggling to control your UI should be part of the game's challenge, instead of... ya know, giving us creative AI mobs or some-such?

That might be why a lot of players just stopped bothering to post in Suggestions anymore. I know, I keep my own Suggestions posts to a minimum when I possibly can and I cringe every time I hit the send post button, wondering how many of the Trolls are going to pop up and start vehemently protesting against every slight little change.

For one I like to say that I agree with most of what you say and I also know that some people tend to be more vocal on the forums then others. Personally I try only to give my opinion although I cannot say I never got a little but overzealous, when I do not agree or do agree with something.
For most suggestions I don’t care as long as it comes with an On/Off switch in the Options menu.

People should never be discouraged into making suggestions. While some suggestion might make a chance, many do not… Like requests for a new race, while really cool to read when the suggestion comes with its own lore, but I don’t see happen any time soon.

As for player created quests… If someone has the skill and patience to create quests it might be a start in giving this game more quests, while keeping the devs doing other important things.
Eventhough the developers will not go for it (atleast not a year ago), but players might get more motivated when quest writers receive a slight reward when their quests are selected. Ranging from a discount in the online shop to special attuned items ingame (mostly useless fluff items…
Just for a few examples:
- Plot banners / mural with special by a dev given tech components.
- Plot build statue with resource requirements of a fountain, but needing an extra dev given tech component.
- For dragons maybe a 24*24*24 (1*1*1) chamber with a miniaturized statue of the sleeper (or whatever) with similar requirement (4-way corridor with 3 pre-selected murals and a small statue in the center)

[LOVWYRM]

Until now- every drag who wanted to do the rift run-did:
And its always a big event and much fun.
Just contact me and I will care for a group.
My fellow dragons are used to the duration of such a run, everyone who joins knows what is comming.
Its been that way since ARoP exsists.
Its been that way on full Chaos shard ,some years ago)
Its been that way on (overcrowded) Unity shard.

Do not change the rift run- most of the ancients are experienced with that (and stronger than ever)
no full group needed anymore.