Forms & Techniques from Monsters

[Adaarye]

I've been watching the forums, hoping things would change and that I could find a reason to not let the cancellation of our 5 accounts stand, particularly the one I created the day before the patch. I have to say, had I known what specifically the revamp was going to mean, I would not have wasted my time or money because I played that character only long enough to spend our last bit of reserves on a lair. I've not logged in on any of my accounts, nor has my partner logged in on his since the day after the revamp.

I am not trying to detract from the dev's efforts by any means. The devs obviously are under the impression that they have done the right thing. Amon's response to my final ticket and my post under the original revamp post were both kind and thoughtful, but firm in the belief that the powers that be have done the right thing.

One of the things my partner and I found so satisfying about the game is that we could do so much for ourselves. We had done except for Sul and Vandellias help with some cargo disks that we could not yet make for ourselves. We loved the fact that tradeskills mattered in Istaria, and weren't just a bit of fluff and that we could make wonderful armor for ourselves. It was challanging but yet we didn't have to slave away for days or weeks and spend time enjoying the game and not grinding endlessly and eventually mindlessly. The revamp put that sort of mindless grind into the game. I understand the vets were most likely bored. I wish there had been a solution that offered compromise and not something as hard lined as the revamp.

Apparently this sort of capability for players is not part of the new game design. This is unfortunate because that sort of independence was the very thing that we loved about the game and now it is gone. I am very disappointed and will not reactivate my accounts. I will also stop following the forums now as it seems things will stand as they are. I respect that and I admire all of you who won't let these changes deter you from your love of the game. I love the game how it was but not how it is now.

For my partner and I, the fun factor is zero and as someone else said, why pay for something you don't enjoy. Fun is priority one. We only had two months of our fun time and a subscription fees invested. I will say, I have a feeling that retention may be less. The game is not newbie or re-newbie friendly with these new stringent loot rules and double rng's.

That being said, I also respect the devs confidence that these changes are moving in the right direction for the Istaria as a whole. This is their party. We are all only guests. If we aren't enjoying the party, we must make our departure in a polite way, thanking our hosts for the good times we had.

Good luck Istaria. I will miss the way things were pre-revamp. I will also miss the massive amounts of dragon slobber from Blue at Bristugo. I will miss Vande. I've known Vande for a long time and shes good people. May she ever reign as the Confectioning Queen. I will miss the community. I said in my other post and I will say it again, that as a whole, the Istarian gameing community is the best. This I will miss most of all. *hugz* =)

[Akrion]

This is another attempt to spur an economy in the game by forcing a market (albeit a limited one) for formulas and techniques. Change is always hard and I realize that some folks would prefer the easy way of buying everything from a merchant. But that is not the way we want this game to proceed and so some formulas/techs will remain looted, while others are sold on merchants.

For you adventurers, you now have a market for more of the things you loot. Enjoy!

I've already tried explaining this to you in the past, Amon. Istaria's community is nowhere near large enough, nor correctly configured, to support this. The ratio between amount of money gained to the amount of money lost is way off balance. There's almost no money sinks beyond buying a plot and upgrading your vault. Eve Online is the only game I've seen have a near 100% player run economy, and they have an average of 30,000 players logged on at any given time on top of the fact that it took a few years to accomplish and the harsh death penalty.

Most old players have plenty of money and have no need to spend any of it. Order has run under a Barter system for almost every serious transaction ever since I joined in January 2009 and has grown progressively worse since.

Istaria needs more money sinks that are worth putting money into. Paying an NPC for special building blueprints, for example, to put on a plot / lair. Otherwise gold will continue to accumulate among the community.


I shall now give a simplistic example of Istaria's situation:

If you take 10 people, and say they made 10 gold each over the course of a month from farming mobs, the total balance is 100 gold. If 1 player gives another player 1 gold for a bunch of comps, the total balance is still 100 gold. As a static number, this isn't a problem, but the total currency isn't static. It's continually going up, and for the most part, only up.

Say the amount of gold brought in from those 10 players remains constant over the course of another 5 months. Now the total balance is 600 gold. After a year the total balance will be 1200 gold. Gold is continually growing less and less scarce and as a result less and less needed for anything.

Lets assume each of those 10 players bought an expensive plot of 25g and got their vaults upgraded to 10 (I can't remember the exact cost, so I'm assuming 25g), the two most expensive money sinks and minus a few here and there the two only money sinks. So that's 50g for each of the 10 players, 1200 - 500, the total currency is now 700g but there are no more money sinks for these 10 players. Another year passes assuming the same unchanging rate of income and we've got a total currency of 1900g. With no more money sinks the economy is going to become flooded with gold that has limited use.

Player to player trading will progressively become less and less about gold when every player's total amount of gold is continuously increasing. When you have a plot, an upgraded vault, and 5 gold on hand there's no reason to sell an item for 10s or 100s if you can instead possibly trade it for another item you may need.

I have a feeling this is going to be completely ignored or disregarded, but at least I can say I tried. The economy will never get better until gold has a steady use beyond player to player trading.

[Holth]

My intention with my post was not to be rude or point fingers. I have no idea who it is at Virtrium that makes the final decision for what content is added or what changes are made.

I am merely pointing out that a large portion of the community has expressed dislike/dissatisfaction with the loot revamp. Accounts have been canceled. Threads are getting longer and longer and patience for some is wearing thin. Less and less folks are logging into the game everyday, although many of them are still paying their subscriptions.

I am a guildleader on Order and have played since the beginning. I have not seen this much dissatisfaction with the game in many years. I am merely pointing out that this does not bode well for Virtrium as a business. And the person or persons in charge should be concerned. As a business owner myself, I know that customer satisfaction can make or break a business.

Amon has been making appearances in MarketPlace on the shards lately and communicating in the forums on a greater basis. For this he is to be commended. I have a great respect for the commitment that the dev team has for this game. What Virtrium needs to remember is that Istaria belongs not only to them, but to each and every person that logs in every day.

Thaalia of Order

[Shinkuu]

Personally, if Firth's examples are correct about the Randomness
of the techs dropping, I can admit my fur will be gnarly after
10s of hours of seeking for techs and no clue how much longer
it will take me to find what I am looking for.

Chances to find specific Drop Tech = 1/52million.* (estimated)
*Same odds as mega Millions
Results = ZERO Happy Hunters.


Andaras

It took me 2.5 Hours MASS MURDERING Undead with Zarla, and I mean MASS MURDERING with AoE spells a good 5~10 at a time nearly non-stop, to get the one tech I was looking for. On top of that the game was being EVIL and teased me with Flame Ward III and Flame Resist III just to be a jerk. I probably killed somewhere between 300~400 Undead to get the Tech. So yeah... Not exactly thrilled with the prospect of doing that again for anything.

[Shinkuu]

I agree with Lovwyrm. if we keep being rude in a thread, I think the thread should be closed. If some have an issue with a person from Virtrium, it would be better to try to contact this person directly.

I think Hoth does not have a specific person because they, like the rest of us, does not know if it is one person or who that person is.

Their rant certainly goes far beyond my original point and I am not sure I would agree all the way to the extent they took it but it is a valid opinion and this IS a rant thread so they should express it. They did not call names or rely on childish tactics they expressed themselves very clearly and in a dignified fashion.

I for one do have to agree that it is rougher on the new players who struggle to get the Techs they need. Some people may like that others who on the other hand really prefer to have everything at their finger tips and want the accomplishment and feeling of pride that comes with that of MAKING a full and perfect set of gear/spells for themselves or others will be dissapointed by this particular change.

There are always people of differing viewpoints on ANY and EVERY topic what makes the most sense is to cater towards the majority because it is the best you can ever hope to reach.


As for new players needing a supportive Guild... Yes... Yes they VERY much do. I have seen very many come and leave Istaria in just a few days. Those who instead come into a Guild like Scions stay much longer. I would not have stayed without the Scions myself so I can attest to the need of that.

The game is a bit brutal in that sense and we can try our best to help the newer folks out when and where we can but it can be hard when you are my levels striving to reach the top to take the time to go back to NT and scout for folks who need your assistance when you are getting none yourself.

[Shinkuu]

Those damned RNGs!!! They're the bane of our existence! We want an end to this suffering!

On the other hand, as Diput suggested, have you tried asking someone else to make it for you?

RNG's are the BANE of my Existence let me tell you Bub. If it is a 1 in a Million chance I will get it on the Million and 10th try. I just happen to have bad luck. Who knows why? Ask a Chaos Theorists.

Have I tried to have someone make it for me? Well let me see... I needed 5 Spells. Most folks canned be bothered to make that many spells for you all teched. What are you going to give them for their effort? Coin? Yeeeah... That is what I thought. I am not high enough level or resourced enough to give them anything they would actually WANT for that sort of effort.

I have tried the Market Channel many a time for things I need and to date I have gotten someone to trade with me from there... Never! Ooooooo! Score one for the home team! Mind you I ALWAYS suggest a trade or payment NEVER just ask for something with nothing in exchange and I am very specific and polite but it does not matter. Cue the Crickets Please!

Also I rather like to be able to make the spells myself. Why? A sense of accomplishment? Sure there is that. Because I may need to do it again in the future and I do not want to have to ask someone else to do it AGAIN? Oh definitely! Because I want them done a very particular way? Better believe it buddy. I bag my own groceries at the store if that gives you any hint. I like things done right and the first time and instead of burdening someone else with the way I want things I prefer to do it myself.

So next time before you go flying off into assumption land maybe you should take some time to get a better handle on the person you are talking to and the situation you are dealing with before responding.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I think Hoth does not have a specific person because they, like the rest of us, does not know if it is one person or who that person is.

I wasn't pointing at Holth but at several players' posts, who are rather rude (I think) towards an unknown person, and this isn't necessary, in my opinion.

[Chasing]

@ Thaalia - I may not have helped as I let my frustrations get the better of me. So if I have offended anyone dev or player I apologise.



Let me try again see if I can be a bit more constructive.
(warning this is going to be a long post).

The loot revamp and tech comp changes are probably the biggest single change we have had for a long long time. These changes impact every player and all in different ways.

This is how I see the factors involved.

1. Pure craft players
2. Pure adventure players
3. Combination players
4. Dragons
5. Blight Environment
6. Order Environment
7. Chaos Environment

Then we have

1. New Players
2. Low to Mid Craft Rating players
3. High Craft Rating Players
4. Low to Mid Adventure Rating players
5. High Adventure Rating players

Thats at least 12 factors and that doesnt take into account alts, guilds, player online time and so on.

The point here is that to balance everything to have a perfect solution to satisfy the needs of every different type of player is impossible.

So the devs have tried to come up with a solution that at least has a common ground. Some areas for adventure, some for crafters etc.

Its not perfect and it is never going to be perfect.

However, the devs (Amon especially) are trying to reshape the game so that it is a better experience in the long run. Getting there is not easy.

Amon logged into each shard last night to speak to players to get feedback and talk (although I think i side lined him a bit when he was on Chaos as no doubt some other ppl did as well).

There are a few things I want to point out

1. Testing

A lot of the issues being raised post live patch are things that have been missed during the 2-3 months the deltas have been sitting on blight.

Specifically

• Balance of drop rates of Crystals from certain mobs
• Balance of drop rates of Broken Items from certain mobs
• Junk Loot drop rate and coin generation
• Technique drop/purchase balance
• Low spawn rates of certain mobs impacting the time to loot tech comps
• Balance of drop rates of Blighted Items
• Formulas being restricted to certain mobs
• Tech Comp drop rates (common and rare)
• Trophy drop rates

Keyword here is balance. The concept isnt wrong, it just may not be in the right place yet.

To work this out takes time. Time to work out which places need tweaking, which don't, and also to make and patch and test the changes.

The other side to this is, there just was not sufficent testing done on Blight to work out where things may be wrong.

So why wasn't the content fully tested?

• Virtrium has to predominately rely on player based testing on Blight
• The bulk of the playerbase does not actively test content on Blight (for various reasons)
• A deadline got reached and the content had to be pushed out in the state it was in.
• Too many changes in one go maybe?
• Player based testing may not reveal all the changes (would you be inclined to report a bug, if that bug worked in your favour?)

2. Purchase vs Looted formulas/techniques

Having a loot only approach satifies an adventurer.

Having a purchase only approach satifies a crafter.

How do you balance it between the two?

Go too much towards drop only then the crafters struggle, too much the other way adventurers struggle.

What has been put in place appears to be a middle ground solution. Is it the right one? I don't know, but it gives something to crafters and something to adventurers. Again no easy way to satisfy everyone.

3. Junk Loot

This works in one way, but not in another.

• For new players it gives them a source of money (which new players need) and they don't know the old method.
• For existing players its an irritation. Two reasons here both mentioned before. Its a 2 step system now instead of a previous one step system. It generates coin which doesn't have much value (ironic isn't it).

Going to sidetrack a minute on the subject of coinage and economy.

Akrion summed this up very well. The bulk of players are adding coin and at much greater rate than its being consumed.

Two things are needed here that aren't yet implemented

• A short term money sink that removes large quantities of coinage that is attractive enough for players to use.
• A long term money sink that addresses the accumulation vs consumption balance.

The loot revamp addresses one side of the economy, the other side which needs to be looked at is the money sinks. Maybe thats coming next?

4. Tech Comps - Rare vs Common

There are too many variables at play to be able to gauge whether the drop rates on a certain mob, of a certain tier are set right.

It will take time for the old comps to be converted via nadia into the new comps, and also for specific drop rate problems to be identified.

Personally I think we should have a system where the drop rates shift based on tier

• Tier 1 - Tech comps are all regular dropped (50/50 on common/rare)
• Tier 2 - Tech comps are 10% less dropped than Tier 1 (55/45)
• Tier 3 - 10% less than Tier 2 (60/40)
• Tier 4 - 10% less than Tier 3 (65/35)
• Tier 5 - 10% less than Tier 4 (70/30)

I think this would help at lower level where some people have pointed out not many hunt the lower tier mobs (too many of us are veteran players :P). The other side to this is that difficulty scales as you level up.

Maybe this could apply to trophies as well (I'm not sure)

Summary

I know a lot of people may be angry/frustrated/irritated (myself included). This is a not an easy change and its going to take time to find all the flaws.

Please give specific examples of mobs where drop rates may be wrong

Please give specific examples of where spawns rates may not be high enough (IE like the enraged treants were)

Please give feedback of where you feel you have been let down but bear in mind a solution has to be balanced between all different player styles.

Please suggest solutions.

Now I'm going to shut up for a while.

[LOVWYRM]

thank you very much for this post Chasing.

Will comment that later (I am at work atm).

Will try to get order players on a "round table" to discuss the issue and post results here.

[Vortura]

.......So next time before you go flying off into assumption land maybe you should take some time to get a better handle on the person you are talking to and the situation you are dealing with before responding.

You're correct, I have no idea who I'm talking with and I don't really care. All I've seen of you is how you've put yourself across on these forums, and only fleetingly in game because you either don't play when I do or you play hidden.

I can't craft a thing that's useful to me for my hunting (for two pure adventure characters), so I always need to ask others to make my spells, armor, weapons, jewelery, potions etc. The crafters get paid coin, or I trade comps or items, or they do building work for me. So far as I'm concerned, the economy seems to be working so long as you want to be a part of it.
Many folks bought the comps I sold, as it seemed for a couple of years I was the only one who regularly put the "difficult" Satyr Island comps up for sale on Order. People made their money back building my plot or from me buying their PB-able items from the connie.

Many times I've had to wait for things or find a specific person to make something for me. Yes it can take hours, days, week, months mostly because the number of players online during my prime-time is rather pitiful, 8 visible as I write this.

You must be talking to the wrong people because even with such low player numbers, when I've needed things and supplied the resources as best I can, folks have been willing to help.

I saw you in MP the other day asking for your T3 tech, you were in and out within a few minutes, and failed to see that you had someone respond to you because you'd gone.

This change is just another speedbump for players, we've always had to hunt our own T4 and T5 techs and forms (although forms were available from the Veilo for a steep price) or slowly wait for those things to filter through auctions, friends, guilds and finally the Consigners.

Just give those few people who hunt and sell, a chance to do their thing.

[LOVWYRM]

Chasing`s post should serve as a basis for discussion.

Only thing I want to add atm: We need new players. We cannot affort that noobs give up (like I saw it happen, and others reported that too) after a few days of playing Istaria.
I say: Istaria is too demanding for noobs atm. Its no fun at the first 30 lvl
(if you do not have players who are willing to help and support you regulary).
Those first 30 lvl need a dramatic change, done by VI.
Until then lets help our new co-players with all we can.

[Teto Frum]

The biggest problem with trying to start an economy in Istaria is the games gravitational pull to guild life is an absolute necessity. Forms and techs will NEVER stimulate an economy because 99% looted will either be scribed by the looter or added to some guild library. Istarias economy killer has always been the connie limits on items and time frame given, too much stuff gets returned to your vault regularly because of the player base size

[Shinkuu]

The biggest problem with trying to start an economy in Istaria is the games gravitational pull to guild life is an absolute necessity. Forms and techs will NEVER stimulate an economy because 99% looted will either be scribed by the looter or added to some guild library. Istarias economy killer has always been the connie limits on items and time frame given, too much stuff gets returned to your vault regularly because of the player base size

From my point of view there is a larger problem which is that what is Valuable in Istaria is not so often bits and pieces used to make things. Forms and Techs are only somewhat valuable and like you said hoarded, scribed, or trashed due to lack of sales. Comps are somewhat more valuable but you need to hit the right time when someone needs them to put them up.

What is actually Valuable is Teched Spells, Armor, and Weapons BUT... These need to be teched to fit a particular person's needs and need to be the right level for them. It is hard to make these at random and just HOPE they will fit someone's wants and then throw them on to the Connie in the vague hope they will make you money.

Instead players often give things away to each other because Coin while very needed to buy forms or plots is other wise not valuable because the old timers have all the coin they could ever want and they also are the folks who can make what you really want to have so coin is worthless to you because it will not buy what you need.

Coin/Money is for a large economy where the Barter System is too messy and complex to work. Istaria is so small that a Barter System is very good and works well. Crystals are extremely valuable if they are the right ones and can be traded for goods and services. The right comp or now broken bit likewise can have some real value. You can trade a sword for that suit of armor but coin is not going to work.

It is like being in a small farming town. You go to the Cobbler to get some shoes and offer him coin and he looks at you funny. He does not want coin. He cannot eat coin. He wants food or a new tool for his work or leather or something else of actual value not just implied value.

[Shinkuu]

You're correct, I have no idea who I'm talking with and I don't really care. All I've seen of you is how you've put yourself across on these forums, and only fleetingly in game because you either don't play when I do or you play hidden.

I can't craft a thing that's useful to me for my hunting (for two pure adventure characters), so I always need to ask others to make my spells, armor, weapons, jewelery, potions etc. The crafters get paid coin, or I trade comps or items, or they do building work for me. So far as I'm concerned, the economy seems to be working so long as you want to be a part of it.
Many folks bought the comps I sold, as it seemed for a couple of years I was the only one who regularly put the "difficult" Satyr Island comps up for sale on Order. People made their money back building my plot or from me buying their PB-able items from the connie.

Many times I've had to wait for things or find a specific person to make something for me. Yes it can take hours, days, week, months mostly because the number of players online during my prime-time is rather pitiful, 8 visible as I write this.

You must be talking to the wrong people because even with such low player numbers, when I've needed things and supplied the resources as best I can, folks have been willing to help.

I saw you in MP the other day asking for your T3 tech, you were in and out within a few minutes, and failed to see that you had someone respond to you because you'd gone.

This change is just another speedbump for players, we've always had to hunt our own T4 and T5 techs and forms (although forms were available from the Veilo for a steep price) or slowly wait for those things to filter through auctions, friends, guilds and finally the Consigners.

Just give those few people who hunt and sell, a chance to do their thing.

I do not play invisible but I do not hang out in MP all day either because I have no reason to. That is the point of being self sufficient is that you do not require sitting around in some channel all day long begging favors off of others you can actually FEND FOR YOURSELF. Try it some time and see how it feels.

I have a pretty diverse list of characters as my sig points out and both my Dragoness and my Main here are crafters and adventurers with the other two being pure adventurers. Between me and my mate we have nearly every crafting class under the sun covered which is a serious pain in the Tail but with enough hard work we get it done.

The reason I left the channel is because I managed to dig up the fact that the Beetle I was after was misnamed and that it actually DID exist. Once I found out what it was, and where to find it and got one of the Antennae I needed from it, I no longer required the help of any one else. I went out and ground up what I needed and took care of my crafting. Initially I was becoming quite uncertain that the Mob in question even EXISTED yet because we had never heard of them before and no Beetle showed up with their name (because right now they are all called Frostbite).

However, if you want to catch me I am almost ALWAYS in the RP channel when I am on. I am not sure if you ever are there but if you are on Order I would be a bit curious as to why not.

As for Speed Bump, I call your Speed Bumps Time Sinks and I have never been fond of artificial Time Sinks for the sake of slowing people down and nothing else. It is the equivalent of saying "You can get from A to B with a Jet VERY fast, with a Car rather fast, and with a Horse quickly but instead we are forcing you to Walk because we would not want you to use any of those other routes and get there any time soon." Just never liked that concept because Time = Money = Value and I haaaaaate wasting my Time. (Which ironically I may be doing trying to explain this but, I will hope that I am not talking to a brick wall of opposition that will not vibrate a single Millimeter.)

[Shinkuu]

I wasn't pointing at Holth but at several players' posts, who are rather rude (I think) towards an unknown person, and this isn't necessary, in my opinion.

Hmmm had not really noticed those posts really but maybe you mean on the forums in general. I have seen such around here and there. It is certainly unfair to get all childish towards VI and throw names or other such.

The thing that caught me about Holth's post was mostly that 90% of this Revamp seemed like a good thing to me while only this one part really does not seem good. My inventory is far less cluttered after hunting these days and knowing what to go after for what sort of thing is very nice and tidy. I also like the broken gear (as you may have read I am working it into my RP even) and like that now getting comps is a wee bit easier because there is less other junk to drop.

[Shinkuu]

Good luck Istaria. I will miss the way things were pre-revamp. I will also miss the massive amounts of dragon slobber from Blue at Bristugo. I will miss Vande. I've known Vande for a long time and shes good people. May she ever reign as the Confectioning Queen. I will miss the community. I said in my other post and I will say it again, that as a whole, the Istarian gameing community is the best. This I will miss most of all. *hugz* =)

I would honestly say you should get a free account and just keep an eye on things. Istaria changes all the time and is still changing. You may yet find it becomes what you are looking for and to that end I will say one other thing on that matter.

I would not be putting forth this sort of effort into Forum Warrioring if I felt there was NO chance that all my efforts would have an effect. They DO have an effect and the Devs are NOT deaf to their players from what I have seen. They are not going to do everything any given person wants of course but if enough support is behind some thing and they can see why then they will generally look into fixing that situation. Though many a time if you do not bring up the problem they cannot fix it because of course with so much code to look at finding every problem randomly is improbable to say the least of it.

[Shinkuu]

I've already tried explaining this to you in the past, Amon. Istaria's community is nowhere near large enough, nor correctly configured, to support this. The ratio between amount of money gained to the amount of money lost is way off balance. There's almost no money sinks beyond buying a plot and upgrading your vault. Eve Online is the only game I've seen have a near 100% player run economy, and they have an average of 30,000 players logged on at any given time on top of the fact that it took a few years to accomplish and the harsh death penalty.

Most old players have plenty of money and have no need to spend any of it. Order has run under a Barter system for almost every serious transaction ever since I joined in January 2009 and has grown progressively worse since.

Istaria needs more money sinks that are worth putting money into. Paying an NPC for special building blueprints, for example, to put on a plot / lair. Otherwise gold will continue to accumulate among the community.


I shall now give a simplistic example of Istaria's situation:

If you take 10 people, and say they made 10 gold each over the course of a month from farming mobs, the total balance is 100 gold. If 1 player gives another player 1 gold for a bunch of comps, the total balance is still 100 gold. As a static number, this isn't a problem, but the total currency isn't static. It's continually going up, and for the most part, only up.

Say the amount of gold brought in from those 10 players remains constant over the course of another 5 months. Now the total balance is 600 gold. After a year the total balance will be 1200 gold. Gold is continually growing less and less scarce and as a result less and less needed for anything.

Lets assume each of those 10 players bought an expensive plot of 25g and got their vaults upgraded to 10 (I can't remember the exact cost, so I'm assuming 25g), the two most expensive money sinks and minus a few here and there the two only money sinks. So that's 50g for each of the 10 players, 1200 - 500, the total currency is now 700g but there are no more money sinks for these 10 players. Another year passes assuming the same unchanging rate of income and we've got a total currency of 1900g. With no more money sinks the economy is going to become flooded with gold that has limited use.

Player to player trading will progressively become less and less about gold when every player's total amount of gold is continuously increasing. When you have a plot, an upgraded vault, and 5 gold on hand there's no reason to sell an item for 10s or 100s if you can instead possibly trade it for another item you may need.

I have a feeling this is going to be completely ignored or disregarded, but at least I can say I tried. The economy will never get better until gold has a steady use beyond player to player trading.

You are right about EVE there. I may not like some aspects of it but I will say its Market was Epic Win and 100% Player Based which was awesome. I knew a guy who was a pure Industrialist there and another who was essentially a Merchent. He NEVER undocked from Jita. He just put out contracts for people to haul stuff and bought and sold goods and made so much Isk he could buy time from folks with ease and played the game for free. That... Is just AWESOME IMO. I mean I would not have the stomach for playing the game like that but the fact that you CAN play like that is just awesome.


However, you hit the nail on the head by saying the population is too darned small. We are just not big enough for serious money based economy to work in Istaria right now. Money was invented to deal with the fact that in BIG economies you cannot trade with the barter system because it gets too cluttered and complicated to get exactly what you need all the time so in lue of getting a specific good or service you got money which is a voucher for goods or services to be rendered later.

As for money sinks it is a wicked thing really because what you NEED is some sort of a constant Sink that does not also destroy the poor Newbies who have no cash. The revamp FINALLY has allowed me to start making some Silver (yeah SILVER) which is amazing for me. When you are new you need money for Vault Upgrades, Plots (if you DARE), and the BAJILLION Forms and some quests you need it for. When you are all set you do not need money anymore. If you make a lot of serious coin sinks that effect every level then the low level folks are broke and quickly cannot play anymore and the higher level folks slooowly lose their coin supply but have no one to pay them coin for anything in amounts larger than a few copper so the situation remains the same.

Things that can drain cash are things like Pets or other things that require a little maintaining but are not Vital to the game and so do not crush the low end economy but do suck coin out of the high end. Another thing is convenience such as people who sell things you could otherwise go harvest that you want but sell it at a good price. If you are too lazy to go harvest it then you buy it from these folks but little by little they eat your wallet alive and sooner or later you actually have to get off your bumb and go make some more coin or harvest yourself again.

[Shinkuu]

2. Purchase vs Looted formulas/techniques

Having a loot only approach satifies an adventurer.

Having a purchase only approach satifies a crafter.

How do you balance it between the two?

Go too much towards drop only then the crafters struggle, too much the other way adventurers struggle.

What has been put in place appears to be a middle ground solution. Is it the right one? I don't know, but it gives something to crafters and something to adventurers. Again no easy way to satisfy everyone.

The problem here is that Loot Only does NOT really satisfy an Adventurer either if there is no one to sell these things to and people are only after very specific things that the Adventurer has a relatively poor chance of actually getting their hands on.

The other problem is that to be honest I about 60/40 Adv/Craft in my play style. I abhor the Crafting grind with a passion compared to Adventuring but I cannot help admit that Istaria's crafting is the best I have ever seen so it sucks me in. However, in that mind frame of a somewhat balanced player the perceived balanced solution is the MOST irritating as it makes getting the crafting part out of the way so you can get back to what you enjoy doing a real pain in the tail.

Nothing is all that worth making without Techs in this game and Techs require comps. Comps are something that Adv types know they can get and know from what they can get them. They know they can sell them and are a great additional money maker for those who invest some time hunting what may be wanted. They are far superior to Forms and Techs which are a real gamble when throwing them up on the market.

I have to be frank here... I have put soooo many techs into Zarla's hoard and sold sooo many forms to Pawn Brokers over my play time because putting them up for sale always saw them come right back to me and thus lost me money. More importantly I could never sell them for more than a few copper because no one who could buy them had money to spare so it was a wretched market to get into and a rather fickle one. I usually only sold Dragon related things because of the larger Dragon population or rare Biped forms like Fine Weapons or Improved Spells and trashed all the rest.

Better to sell to a Pawn Broker and get SOME coin rather than throw onto a Consignor and LOSE Coin yes?

Adventurer only classes also have no use whatsoever for Forms and Techs buuuuut Comps on the other hand can be useful for more than just Coin. If you want something made and teched as an Adventurer you can have a serious bargening chip with a crafter in saying "Look, I have some Coin and I have all the comps you need to make this for me. So if you could craft these things I would really appreciate it."

So as I said in the beginning, hunt Comps NOT Forms/Techs. All that hunting for Forms/Techs does is weaken the ability of the Newer Player to get a foot hold here and slowly destroys the crafting classes while not phasing the Adventuring classes other than perhaps making it harder for them to get made and teched gear for themselves.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Well, money can have a use, for new players to buy things they find on consigners and pawnbrokers, and for vault upgrades, travels,... , and elder players to help the new ones with a little amount, helping them to start the game...

[Diput]

I say: Istaria is too demanding for noobs atm. Its no fun at the first 30 lvl
(if you do not have players who are willing to help and support you regulary).
Those first 30 lvl need a dramatic change, done by VI.

This makes no sense. It is not difficult or demanding at all to level to 30 solo. I would even say it is too easy. If you just whatever quests you are able to (there are far more than needed for the level range so lots of choices) and hunt what the trophy hunters are looking for (and undead/WA when you are able) the levels go by so fast that it is ridiculous.