Avoid the Slippery Slope

[Dhalin]

I for one felt insulted, I remember the Istarian days when hatchlings and bipeds alike were taken to the satyr island in a group of highlevel bipeds and dragons and got easy experience by sitting on the side lines… A huge stream of high level bipeds and dragons appeared all long dead and long gone who had multiple 100’s, but didn’t know how to play their character. This form of powerleveling is at least taken away from the game… at the cost of no high levelers being able to group with a low level player, but we all know the saying… The good suffer because of the bad.

That whole "Nobody can level/hunt in groups unless they are the same level" thing, I don't blame the exploiters for that -- I blame poorly-designed anti-PL code.

They put in unnecessarily _large_ anti-PL measures when other, more subtler means would have sufficed, that wouldn't kill grouping.

Having mobs perma-aggro the lowest level member nearby was the worst way to combat this, ever. Now, I could understand it, if it was to extremes (say, 10+ level gap), but when -1 level- causes mobs to be glued to one person, then you have a problem.

I'll still remind the devs and fellow players of why my GF stopped playing the game. We greatly enjoyed playing together, and even leveling together, until we somehow got out-of-sync. I was 2 levels higher than she was, and it was nearly impossible for us to group together and kill stronger mobs, because everything was glued onto her, and no manner of Melee-build Gold Rages would keep crap off of her.

This was, of course, before Primal health and other dragon buffs, but still.. the game put a sour taste in her mouth, and she's not coming back anyday soon. I know I can't be the one and only who has ever had similar problems in the game world, and I have, from day one, always been vocal about making some kind of level gap forgiveness (10 levels works). If the gap is 9 levels or less, the mobs should act like everyone's the same level. If there's a 10 level or more gap, THEN have mobs discriminate against the low-level players.

Nobody PLs a player who's within 10 levels of themselves -- the XP gain just doesn't justify it. It would be easier for the PL'd player to fight things their level, themselves.

[LOVWYRM]

agreed, Dhalin.

[Chasing]

That whole "Nobody can level/hunt in groups unless they are the same level" thing, I don't blame the exploiters for that -- I blame poorly-designed anti-PL code.

They put in unnecessarily _large_ anti-PL measures when other, more subtler means would have sufficed, that wouldn't kill grouping.

So whats a better solution?

[LungTien Temeraire]

So whats a better solution?

Maybe what he has already said:

I have, from day one, always been vocal about making some kind of level gap forgiveness (10 levels works). If the gap is 9 levels or less, the mobs should act like everyone's the same level.

[Nambroth]

Dhalin, I agree entirely.

On the other hand, I definitely feel that if I invited a friend to this game, I'd need to babysit them for the first week, doing nothing but explaining all the systems and processes because otherwise there's a significant danger that they'd get bored/frustrated and wander off. And then I'd have to listen to them casually disparage this game forevermore.

Very much agree, and I have experienced this manymany times firsthand, even when I have tried to 'babysit' the new player.
It'd be one thing if a player is frustrated and simply left.
But they don't-- they leave and then whenever Istaria is mentioned in the future they say how terrible it is, which discourages other new players.
This is especially problematic in some of the 'dragon' circles online.. often dragon enthusiasts hang out together online and all it takes is one person that had a frustrating experience to ruin the game for a dozen+ possible players.

Like Thickle said, there is a big difference between challenge / reward, and frustrating.

[Jorev1]

I play Istaria because it is more complex than most MMOs.

Those who quit in frustration are not looking for the same MMO I am and don't appreciate the qualities I look for in a MMO.

You cannot satisfy both types of players on the same server ruleset, and most likely even the same MMO.

It is indeed a slippery slope, to try and attract a wider audience by simplifying the game, and one the developers should avoid. Instead tout the merits of an old school complex MMO like Istaria, hopefully offer a fresh server start one day, and attract those gamers out there looking for a complex MMO.

[Shinkuu]

Devs should just remove the experience gain from trophy hunter quests above rating 160+ and force players to actually choose their headings in life like it was instead of allowing all biped gifted to become rating 278 Demi-Gods…
These quests have been part of the slippery slope on which Istaria slides now. Dragons only became easy mode because Bipeds got their trophies to grind


I for one felt insulted, I remember the Istarian days when hatchlings and bipeds alike were taken to the satyr island in a group of highlevel bipeds and dragons and got easy experience by sitting on the side lines… A huge stream of high level bipeds and dragons appeared all long dead and long gone who had multiple 100’s, but didn’t know how to play their character. This form of powerleveling is at least taken away from the game… at the cost of no high levelers being able to group with a low level player, but we all know the saying… The good suffer because of the bad.

Trophies do not fall out of the sky and once their value drops in half they are not that great. If someone wants to burn them all day long to get ratings like that then I say go right ahead.

Even story-wise it makes sense that a Biped who IS Gifted has the time on their hands to progress their abilities to near God-Hood and that this is the real EDGE they have up on the WA.

Mind you Ancient Dragons are nothing to spit at either.

Now as for Trophies making Dragons Easy Mode? Well it certainly helps but the main reason they are easy is you have very little to keep track of. You have just one Adv Class which if you go Melee has some powerful One Hit Kill (though they hit multiple times with one use) moves, plenty of HP, Plenty of Defense, and full Armor Usage. They also come with great AoE skills and Spells and even very fine and usable healing abilities and spells. So they have a nice mix of everything you need to be successful with just one class.

On the crafting front they are INSANELY easy by comparison doing everything it would have taken a Ped many many classes to do in just TWO.

So quite frankly I do not see that trophies are a huge issue in that regard at all. Dragons are simply easier to play and flight makes them even more so. Their downside is lack of versatility in craft and sheer power in Adv. They cannot make many things that are outwardly useful or salable with their craft and they cannot get as many deadly attacks, powerful heals, or wicked spells as a very mutliclassed Biped. However, considering the difference in work required (Yes, WORK, not Skill Per Se) in achieving the end goals of either group is so different, the end results seem fair and neither is unplayable or "Bad" compared to the other in terms of effectiveness.


As for the nerf to exp for groups with higher level folks in them... That IS annoying IMHO. Yeees... I know there are folks who would power level with that but... I am not sure what the big deal is. If they so desire to power level then let them... Again though, this is another spot where doing away with accursed levels and just having Skills progress by themselves based on usage would be infinitely superior. Then you can group with whomever you like and as long as you keep fighting or practicing you will gain skill regardless of how big and bad they are. If they do all the work and you do nothing then you gain no skill so bye-bye power leveling right?

[Shinkuu]

That whole "Nobody can level/hunt in groups unless they are the same level" thing, I don't blame the exploiters for that -- I blame poorly-designed anti-PL code.

They put in unnecessarily _large_ anti-PL measures when other, more subtler means would have sufficed, that wouldn't kill grouping.

Having mobs perma-aggro the lowest level member nearby was the worst way to combat this, ever. Now, I could understand it, if it was to extremes (say, 10+ level gap), but when -1 level- causes mobs to be glued to one person, then you have a problem.

I'll still remind the devs and fellow players of why my GF stopped playing the game. We greatly enjoyed playing together, and even leveling together, until we somehow got out-of-sync. I was 2 levels higher than she was, and it was nearly impossible for us to group together and kill stronger mobs, because everything was glued onto her, and no manner of Melee-build Gold Rages would keep crap off of her.

This was, of course, before Primal health and other dragon buffs, but still.. the game put a sour taste in her mouth, and she's not coming back anyday soon. I know I can't be the one and only who has ever had similar problems in the game world, and I have, from day one, always been vocal about making some kind of level gap forgiveness (10 levels works). If the gap is 9 levels or less, the mobs should act like everyone's the same level. If there's a 10 level or more gap, THEN have mobs discriminate against the low-level players.

Nobody PLs a player who's within 10 levels of themselves -- the XP gain just doesn't justify it. It would be easier for the PL'd player to fight things their level, themselves.

They also target soft skinned folks like Mages and Healers relentlessly... It is sad that among the Peds no class, no matter how tough, can effectively GUARD another class. There is a lot of skills that "Might" intercept attacks "Maybe" if you are "Lucky" but nothing to actually control the group and keep them off of someone.

This also hurts in another instance for Dragons... I would LOVE Zarla to participate in some of the things that the lvl 100+ folks do but I cannot. She is only lvl 76 and if I tagged along to join in the fun I would get killed. Why? Because there is NO WAY anyone can KEEP the Monsters from walking over and slaughtering me and that is exactly what they will do as they ignore anyone else in the area.

[Frith-Rae]

I play Istaria because it is more complex than most MMOs.

Those who quit in frustration are not looking for the same MMO I am and don't appreciate the qualities I look for in a MMO.

You cannot satisfy both types of players on the same server ruleset, and most likely even the same MMO.

It is indeed a slippery slope, to try and attract a wider audience by simplifying the game, and one the developers should avoid. Instead tout the merits of an old school complex MMO like Istaria, hopefully offer a fresh server start one day, and attract those gamers out there looking for a complex MMO.

For the first time I'm agreeing with you on the "people who don't want the complexity shouldn't be here and that's OK". As I said in my first post in this thread - its OK to NOT make everyone happy. But its not OK to drive away those that are wanting complexity just because its not explained in game.

I think Istaria could improve on in-game help and explanations and "lists" (so to speak) that a player woudl have access too. THis would allow it to be more "newbie" friendly wihtout taking out the complexities and such. This would also help players during hte lowest population times, when there isn't anyone helpful on, or who are in small guilds or something like that.

Ways in GAME to research, ways in game to pull up windows to find out what you need to know, without having to rely on either 1-helpful player who knows the info (lord knows I'm helpful but I can honestly say the game has changed so much since the beginning I don't always know which way is up with some things), 2-surfing forums and wikkies looking for spreadsheets and lists.

Something that goes beyond the tutorial level, to what other games have as like in-game references/indexes etc. Others have suggested things like having yoru Spellbook tell you ALL spells so you know what you're missing. Tech/Formula "knowledge books" that do the same. Ways for a player to be aware of what they don't have and then guiding you to places/references/locations in game that can help you figure out how to get them.

Frith-Rae jokingly pulls out the "Big Book of Dragon Knowledge" in game when I'm playfully RPing with hatchlings on how things work - this book is described as HUGE and HEAVY. But really its what you have to have on hand in order to remember all the complexities of even playing teh dragon race. Bipeds I'm sure have to have the Britannica Series.

There should be ways to have access/instruction/guides/whatever in game for a player to reference to make KNOWING the rules of the world easier.

And by making that easier - nothing complex is lessened, the gameplay itself is not easier - it just makes finding the information not the same amount of grind as lairshaping .

[Chasing]

Maybe what he has already said:

Ahh missed that point.

[Andaras]

Lessee if I can get all salient points without being too unorganized.

One persons post sounds too much like the old Dragon Vs Ped argument.
*Dead horse symbol applied*

I totally agree with the sentiment about the Group Hunting being
savaged, Nerf, and then sacrificed. The actions were totally
unbalanced and over-reaction based.

Let's all take a clear look at WHY the PL groups were taking place shall we?
Groups were going PL'ng because: Aggro focused solely on the
Puller, EXP per kill was unlimited, EXP for all characters was Equal
(not divided based on ratings), and Groups were going to heavily
populated spawn areas. Personal experience speaks on this, as I
saw a Dragon hatchling demonstrate this at the Purple Flies. He
pulled the entire valley and ran them in Circles, The group stood
at the entrance and killed 1 at a time while the flies followed him
around dizzyingly -- EXP was 60K each for everyone in group
regardless of level/rating. It was an impressive display,
and clearly showed why most players wanted to do these kinds
of group hunts. Artifact (were they the owners then, I forget)
decided this was an exploit and took corrective (OVER-RE) Action.

That something needed to be fixed, I agree. Did they fix it
correctly - I adamantly disagree.

As for someone's statement that no amount of Melee/guarding will
draw aggro off a lower toon, I say this one word - HEALS.
Another WTF change to the aggro system. A powerful enough Healer
can take and hold aggro during ANY kind of fight, no matter who or
what is in group. (Proviso - everyone must withstand at least one
shot from the Mobs so the Heals can be cast) Clerics also have
a very powerful Intercept ability - giving 85% chance to take the
attack on their shield rather than the protected person's head.

I think it was Riaken that said he plays for the complexity. Ditto,
if this game becomes TOO simple it would become boring fast.
And that more than anything would make me leave, I'll not pay
for an Online game just to be bored.

sorry if my musings became ramblings.
Andaras

[Shinkuu]

Frith-Rae jokingly pulls out the "Big Book of Dragon Knowledge" in game when I'm playfully RPing with hatchlings on how things work - this book is described as HUGE and HEAVY. But really its what you have to have on hand in order to remember all the complexities of even playing teh dragon race. Bipeds I'm sure have to have the Britannica Series.

That... Is HILARIOUS... *imagines this ... BUILDING... that a Saris Scholar is standing next to... but when asked it apparently is the Big Book of Biped Knowledge... Good luck actually reading the thing and No, you cannot move it, it took a whole FOREST to make.*

[Shinkuu]

As for someone's statement that no amount of Melee/guarding will
draw aggro off a lower toon, I say this one word - HEALS.
Another WTF change to the aggro system. A powerful enough Healer
can take and hold aggro during ANY kind of fight, no matter who or
what is in group. (Proviso - everyone must withstand at least one
shot from the Mobs so the Heals can be cast) Clerics also have
a very powerful Intercept ability - giving 85% chance to take the
attack on their shield rather than the protected person's head.

I think it was Riaken that said he plays for the complexity. Ditto,
if this game becomes TOO simple it would become boring fast.
And that more than anything would make me leave, I'll not pay
for an Online game just to be bored.

sorry if my musings became ramblings.
Andaras

Heals do in fact suck Aggro but that is a bad thing. The idea is to keep your Healer ALIVE not to get them Squashed. Clerics wear heavy armor by Healers do not. They are squishy and prone to dying if they get ganged up on.

Most heavy Tanks/Melee classes cannot actually cast enough healing to get anything's attention and therefore this is a huge, and very backwards, way of going about Aggro. Now for intelligent enemies I can understand the reasoning for going AFTER Healers but we need some way to actually DEFEND them as the beefy Tank.

Now I have found that as a Reaver that enemies hate one thing MORE than heals... Life Stealing. Ooooh they haaaaate that. If you can Life Steal HARD on them they will hate you forever but you got to get it in early if you want to out do Heals.

[Vandellia]

Dumbing down the game is not generally a good idea. its th equivalent of giving someone an "I win button" the real issue is an old bugabo(and dead horse that i continue to beat) and its about time and effort versus percieved bnifit and reward. that is the issue the individuals perception. That being said Horiznons does have a steep learning curve and for some the vagueness that they find when given a task/quest can frustrate players that are used to having a map/radar that points to the general location of the quest location. Istaria dosent have this thats not a bad thing just not the norm for games today and takes a bit of mental adjustment to overcome.

[Teto Frum]

I'm not sure by listening to new players who enter our guild that Hz plays any easier these days. It certainly plays faster but that doesnt necessarily mean easier. It plays faster because numerous things have been done to speed the grind up, faster discs, scrolls etc. Well new players may not have the same problems the original players had they have a whole new set to deal with.

Several things that have been made easier the developers have had no choice but to implement because of population size. Istaria is still the most advanced indepth MMO on the market for my money, dumbing it down to attract more players when said players are who most Istarians are trying to avoid by being here isn't the answer I hope. There are amble people that enjoy what Istaria has to offer, it didnt need these drastic changes, like any product it needs exposure to its target demographic.

Until the t3 and t4 revamps are done there is no sense promoting Istaria to that demographic. The switch from the redone zones to the old t3 and t4 zones is like midgame losing your PS3 and it being replaced with PONG on the old Atari systems. The contrast is like hitting a wall. Hopefully Istaria sees those revamped, existing bugs fixed, food timers reduced and then finds itself marketable again.

[Dragonboy]

It certainly plays faster but that doesnt necessarily mean easier. It plays faster because numerous things have been done to speed the grind up, faster discs, scrolls etc. Well new players may not have the same problems the original players had they have a whole new set to deal with.

The most notable thing that has changed is that more quests have been added, better tutorial island, only 1 training island which force people together and allow for grouping in various quests like Defender of New Trimus.. While I can only speak about dragons… Having Gerix in Kion to start a dragons training was a good idea (and this pains me writing this considering I was brought up as hatchling visiting all the trainers in Chiconis, Dralk and Tazzoon), while I do not currently agree with the dragon in Parsinia who gives out craft quests. At least not until Parsinia is placed on Kion portal system (last I checked it wasn’t and forcing players to attune to Bristugo before able to port to Parsinia is annoying).

Having 1 central place for quests is good, easy for players to locate, growing through quests is always better then having to grind through the levels.

[LOVWYRM]

could be, that I was not clear in my posts:
I never wanted our game to be easier.
I even say it would be the end of Istaria if it was.

What I wanted to discuss, how we can make the game easier FOR NEW PLAYERS. Vet players and devs I ask what we can do about that prob.
As others say here- new players need to be hatched for quite a while. And we all know that is not always fun. It is exhausting sometimes (esp. if English is not your mother tongue: how to make UI, how to install chats, which tool for what..),
I`m running out of ideas.

[Dragonboy]

It is exhausting sometimes (esp. if English is not your mother tongue: how to make UI, how to install chats, which tool for what..),
I`m running out of ideas.

What about explaining to people how to play Windowed instead of Full Screen and direct them to the Crimson Dawn website, while I normally would not recommend such unofficial sources, but Chasing has put (and probably still does) a lot of work behind all the guides and they are as clearly written as possible in the English language.

[LOVWYRM]

its the very first thing I do Rv
CD side is like the big book Frith is talking about

[Dragonboy]

Well if that isn't enough I wonder what is... Tier 1 and 2 have plenty of quests, the CD website gives plenty of information needed to learn the game in case newbies ignored the tutorial in the beginning. There is only so much the elders can do apart from dropping all we wish to do and create alts to hold the newbies by hand and do quests with them day in day out.