Remove Vestigil Stances

[Shinkuu]

One thing that has bothered me since the beginning is that you get Green, Blue, and Red Stances as a skill. For Dragons these are absolutely worthless. For Bipeds they effect certain skills but for mage classes are again worthless.

From what I was told these skills were meant to be used in a Rock Paper Scissor fashion with the Enemies all using one stance or another as well. That would be ok and add a sort of splash of strategy to the combat but the Enemies currently do not USE stances.

So with the system never fully implemented why not just get rid of stances altogether? It would save a little graphical power, some database slots, some added calculations on the game engine. Just have the effected skills do the extra things they normally would under any given stance and remove the stances.

You could go the other way and fully implement them but I am not sure it is really worth the bother and adding even MORE clutter to the engine and graphics.

[Guaran]

Well, it isn't true it was never fully implemented. Because originally it was.

Just don't use them.

And FYI, there are a few mobs that use them, but I can't recall which. Like one or two of the named ones do.

I like having them there, because I use them as a location marker when flying. Scouting the map and flying near the edge, the stance lets you see exactly where you are so you don't go over the edge.

[velveeta]

hey!!! don't get rid of the green stance, it glows so well off my battle armour!

[Dragonboy]

* Gallinthus likes the blue stance... Makes him feel like a dragon with neon lights under his belly *

[Solan]

On my dragon, I use them as a signal to remind me of which scale set I’m current wearing. ie.:

Red stance means I’m wearing my glass cannon melee scales.
Blue stance means I’m using my caster/tank set.
Green means I haven’t switched out from one of my crafting scales.
No stance means I got my speed/velocity wings on.

Ever since I added these stances to my scale swapping hotkeys, I’ve had a lot less incidents of having the wrong scales at the wrong place.

[Grodec]

The stances were originally implemented and worked well. I dont know why they were changed to only work with certain attacks and spells. I use my stances all the time when meleeing. They do make a large difference in damage done with certain attacks. I would hate to see them abandoned totally. I would rather see them returned to the original state where the mobs use them also. It was an added element to combat that if you didnt pay attention to could cause you major problems. Or yield major triumphs if played properly.

[Guaran]

On my dragon, I use them as a signal to remind me of which scale set I’m current wearing. ie.:

Red stance means I’m wearing my glass cannon melee scales.
Blue stance means I’m using my caster/tank set.
Green means I haven’t switched out from one of my crafting scales.
No stance means I got my speed/velocity wings on.

Ever since I added these stances to my scale swapping hotkeys, I’ve had a lot less incidents of having the wrong scales at the wrong place.

Hey, this is a great idea!

I'm going to do this also, but I am going to use Red for Crafting, Green for Melee, Blue for Speed wings.

[Shinkuu]

The stances were originally implemented and worked well. I dont know why they were changed to only work with certain attacks and spells. I use my stances all the time when meleeing. They do make a large difference in damage done with certain attacks. I would hate to see them abandoned totally. I would rather see them returned to the original state where the mobs use them also. It was an added element to combat that if you didnt pay attention to could cause you major problems. Or yield major triumphs if played properly.

I already stated that you would get rid of the stances but leave their effect on skills.

Right now it is just a pain that you learn these relatively worthless things (especially for Dragons or Mages) and then for SOME Bipeds have to bother flipping between them adding to the lag and hotkeys you have to keep track of to get your maximum benefit.

Like I said, that would be ok if it were fully implemented but being just vestigial it is not worth keeping around.

As a blanket response to the Dragons arguments for keeping them: You are bringing up uses that have no baring on what they are meant for. You are using them almost more as a fashion accessory. If you want that so badly then maybe that can be a new sort of fluff item or the like. No need to clutter up my Hotkeys and ability list with things that may as well be done away with for that.

[Dragonboy]

Nobody forces you to place them on a hotkey bar... In the Characters ability screen they do not bother anyone so why remove them as long as people find uses for them.

[Kesqui]

On my dragon, I use them as a signal to remind me of which scale set I’m current wearing. ie.:

Red stance means I’m wearing my glass cannon melee scales.
Blue stance means I’m using my caster/tank set.
Green means I haven’t switched out from one of my crafting scales.
No stance means I got my speed/velocity wings on.

Ever since I added these stances to my scale swapping hotkeys, I’ve had a lot less incidents of having the wrong scales at the wrong place.

That is an absolutely BEAUTIFUL idea, Solan.... will have to do something like that when I get home

[Guaran]

Nobody forces you to place them on a hotkey bar... In the Characters ability screen they do not bother anyone so why remove them as long as people find uses for them.

Exactly. The OP is

[Takora Drakan]

I agree to the majority here. If the stances bother you that much, just ignore them and don't put them on your hotkeys. It's not like you loose something when you get them for free at level up.

[Shinkuu]

Nobody forces you to place them on a hotkey bar... In the Characters ability screen they do not bother anyone so why remove them as long as people find uses for them.

I need them on my hotkey bar in order to use them with the skills that work with the stances on my Peds. I understand a Dragon would not understand that but for Peds your main attack as a Melee fighter of virtually any sort requires a particular stance to be at most effect. Also Critical Strike/Heart Seeker require another Stance to be good. If you are doing archer types you have to flip between Blue and Red in order to get maximum effect off of various abilities.

That is annoying considering it is added clutter and mechanics for ultimately no real purpose other than to make battle MORE clunky. If the system was fully in place it could make sense to have them and deal with them for the full added strategy but with the system not in place they seem like a left over add-on that is only gunking up combat with no benefit.

[Shian]

I actually agree with the OP. They are an old, outdated piece of mechanic that no longer serve their function other than to confuse newbs and leave a bitter taste in the mouth when you have to tell a new player, one that might return or not, "Oh that hasn't worked since beta". I don't know about you, but if there are many broken things in an MMO such as this where no one even attempted to make it work or clean it up so it is less confusing, that throws up big red flags to me. That there may be other things like this that are broken that no one has bothered to fix.

There's a difference between something that breaks with a patch like the current melee attack bug or a longer one like the disco essence where the plan is to fix it and something that is not going to be fixed.

Yes, some people have found a use for them, but I too wish there was less "junk" in our ability and craft lists. If that is to be the purpose of them, then rename them to reflect the function.

[starlight]

True they are old but were used when the mobs used stances as well and being in the wrong stance meant that player would take increased damage from the attacker. Now though blue stances increases the damage done by auto hitting attacks , attacks like power shot, power strike, smash are used with red stance its not hard to understand, use blue with the attack like crit strike then switch to red stance until crit strike has recycled. I personally do not want them removed as i use them alot.

[Guaran]

I need them on my hotkey bar in order to use them with the skills that work with the stances on my Peds. I understand a Dragon would not understand that but for Peds your main attack as a Melee fighter of virtually any sort requires a particular stance to be at most effect. Also Critical Strike/Heart Seeker require another Stance to be good. If you are doing archer types you have to flip between Blue and Red in order to get maximum effect off of various abilities.

That is annoying considering it is added clutter and mechanics for ultimately no real purpose other than to make battle MORE clunky. If the system was fully in place it could make sense to have them and deal with them for the full added strategy but with the system not in place they seem like a left over add-on that is only gunking up combat with no benefit.

So... they take them out, and the added benefit to combat is then lost...

Yeah this is a good idea. [/sarcasm]

How about YOU take them off of your hotkey bar, YOU lose the added benefit, and those who chose to continue to use them may do so, and retain the added benefit.

It's starting to sound like your real suggestion is to "not have to use" stances to get maximum benefit. Here's a tip for you, most of those few abilities that need a stance, like say Smash V, are weak either way. Do us all a favor and don't even hotkey it or the stances. I say few because it is never more than 2 attacks per school that I have seen. So you not using them will be a relatively minor impact on your combat.

Why is this a troublesome suggestion? Because what happens, is the dev's see one or two people complain about something on the forums (istaria has what 200 paying customers, so 1% of the playerbase, maybe 2% [guessing]) like "there's no economy so my food falls of the tavern, let's make consignors infinite.." and guess what, dev's are actually considering it. Regardless of the fact it would NOT fix the economy, WOULD make popular consignors more laggy and at some point stop working properly because when they get too full, you don't see everything listed for sale. So thanks to 1 or 2 complainers, the game winds up broken worse than before.

So, no, I cannot support this suggestion, ever. Players DO use them, for multiple purposes. And because one complainer does not represent all the players. (One complainer who fails to see both sides.) Leaving it alone, those who are good at using them can continue to do so.

Here's another free Pro-tip:
Your hotkeys for attacks that can get a bonus from a particular stance, edit it. Put "Use Ability" then drag Combat Stance Blue or whichever the attack needs to the hotkey, then add the abillity back on after the stance, take out the first original entry. Now, triggering the attack automatically triggers the correct stance first. This is how my ped's keys are set up.

[Akrion]

U mad, Guaran? A bit of an unnecessarily rude post there.

I agree with Shinkuu to an extent. The way the stances are currently employed definitely leave them in a state of being a deprecated mechanic and all the reasoning and work-arounds in the world won't change this fact. I don't think they should be flat out removed, but they do need to be looked at eventually.

The very fact that some people are using them now for signals as a way to remind them what armor set they're wearing, or to perhaps keep track of their character in a cluster of mobs, just shows that perhaps a mechanic to specifically be used this way could be in order. Something that could allow for more choice in noticeability and color.

The stances being used to boost biped abilities should be reworked to specifically be stances meant to be used in conjunction with biped abilities and nothing else. The fact that the current stances spill over to Dragon characters, and the fact that they used to be used with mobs does make it a rather clunky mechanic these days.

[starlight]

About the editing hotkey bit with stances, that can be fine in some case but if player has lag issues it might skip using the stance and go straight to the attack itself so having to add in wait timers sometimes helps just not always. as for a biped even multiclassed ones even with mage school an using all availiable hot keys only 1 being a group chat key i still have empty hotkeys. Possible idea is try being more selective of what abilites you hot key from other schools is one idea i can think of.

[Guaran]

You only would need to add a stance to an ability that gets a damage bonus from a particular one. Most abilities are unaffected by stance at all. No spells require a stance to be more effective, only melee and ranged.

Smash, 10% extra damage when in Red (Druid and also Cleric iirc)
Critical Strike, 20% extra damage when in Blue (Warrior, masterable)
Power Strike X, +50 Damage when in Red (Warrior, not masterable)
Power Shot X, +50 Damage when in Red (Ranger, masterable)
Heart Seeker V, +25 Damage when in Blue (Ranger/Scout, masterable)
Long Shot I, 10% extra Damage when in Blue (Scout, masterable)
(These are all the ones I am aware of, if I missed any please list them.)

Keep in mind as well that there is at least one additional stance outside the red/green/blue, and thats Rapid Fire stance for Ranger (masterable to be used in Scout and Elar too). 80% evasion, 80% magic evasion, -10% attack delay. This stance overwrites the red/green/blue and it quite useful if group hunting and trying to use stun arrows or do damage when someone else is tanking. The stances are used most by Archer schools from what I can see, which makes sense since the combat pose of an archer will affect accuracy, speed, and close-combat defense.

Abilities with a + damage amount (instead of a percentage) scales down in the lower mastered versions. i.e. often no point in hotkeying some mastered ablities when they are weaker, let alone worrying about the stance they benefit from. However some abilites are boosted nicely by stances, mainly Critical Strike when in Warrior, and attack speed bonus from Rapid Fire Stance when in Ranger/Scout/Elar.

starlight is right that on ocassion, combat queue lag can get in the way when using multiple abilities on a single key. For them to work properly (2 abilities on one key), the combat queue needs to be empty of specials before you press the hotkey. Autoattack is fine but you don't want to press multistrike, then immediately press a crit strike key that also has stance in the front.

A better option for warrior (to simplfy using stances) is to use blue when you switch to warrior, and leave it up the whole time. Honestly, this is the only attack with enough of a benefit to worry about the stance at all. The others its a small extra amount of damage. If you are already used to using stances, they present no problem. If not, your'e not missing much except in the case of Critical Strike.

Dragons do get stances too, and did need to use red/green/blue when the mobs did. But no attacks gain any additional damage from using one. Like mentioned earlier, they make nice visible indicators tho for multiple purposes when you are a dragon. Dragons do not have visible armor (and hopefully this stays an option cause my multicolor-coded scales would not make a pretty picture if outwardly visible), so it's quite useful to see at a glance which scales you are wearing by using stances.

@Akrion, what is annoying are people who refuse to see both sides.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Still, sarcasm isn't necessary and doesn't bring anything good.