Coin Holdings/Earning Breakdown

[Shinkuu]

Because there is a lot of talk about economy and coin sinks in this game I think it is very important to put into perspective who has what amount of coin and what earning potential vs. their need for coin. Very often the coin cost of things is weighted toward the old vets in an attempt to get their cash but this is very unfair to everyone else as I will illustrate.

Note: Biped Crafters in all Tiers will require many times the amount of Coin to stay viable compared to Dragons due to the immense number of forms they must buy in comparison.

Tier VI Players|

This group has every Form and Tech in Triplicate. They have hundreds of Gold and besides buying an occasional Comp from someone else and funding some work on their Plot they have NOTHING to do with their Coin. They are desperate for entertaining little things to blow coin on. Fun perks that make them look more unique or can be fun props for RP. They want to get fluff that requires vast Coinage to make their hoard of money worthwhile. They do not need any more coin and it has next to no value to them whatsoever. Copper? What is that? Silver? I use it for Toilet Paper. Gold? I have coated everything in my Lair in Gold. I Gold Plated the walls, floors, ceiling, furniture, work benches, shrubberies outside, and even some of my food in Gold. My whole world glitters in golden splendor. I am even considering some substantial Platinum in the near future.


Tier V Players|

These are slowly reaching the end game. They are within a hair's breadth of getting everything they need and want and have the ability to earn coin in the range of 100 Silver an Hour if they work hard at it. They need lots of Coin still because they have the last and most expensive Forms to buy which are utterly bank breaking and may need to finish the last and most brutal of Vault Upgrades. Coin still has value for these players but it is slowly starting to wane and become less useful. Silver is starting to lose its charm and Gold is becoming increasingly required but making any great amount of it still seems like quite a task that is not for the faint of heart.


Tier IV Players|

These players are still in the thick of things. They are looking to the future and dreading the horrible amount of Coin they will need to purchase the Tier V content of the game. They are missing many Tier IV techs as they are next to impossible to get their hands on and are scraping by with Tier III Teched Gear and Spells. They can now make around 30 Silver an Hour if they hunt Tier III monsters in massive groups. Coin is of moderate value to them because they cannot buy much of what they want but they still know they need to save up for their future. Silver is now in decent supply and the idea of having 'A' Gold Coin is starting to sound plausible if they really drop everything else they are doing and work for just that goal.


Tier III Players|

These players are hurting still hurting for Coin. They need to buy all thew new and very expensive journeyman formulas and techs. They are swamped with expenses and are lucky to be able to eak out 15~20 Silver an Hour if they grind hard. They never seem to have enough Coin and always have many more things to buy. As such they do not part with Coin unless absolutely mandatory and find themselves grinding Junk Loot just to stay afloat. Silver Coins seem to come in a bit more regularly and are the currency of choice but Gold still seems like a pipe dream.


Tier II Players|

These players are desperate for Coinage. They are getting some quests which offer little shots in the arm to their bank account but they are not enough. They are growing fast in their ability to craft and are in dire need of all the forms and techs for their level. Now that they can scribe more forms they cannot keep up with the new demands on their cash supply. These players are doing very well to pull in 10 Silver an Hour in their grinding and most Forms will eat that up in one or two shots. They really have nothing left over to spend. Gold at this point seems like a Coin type they will NEVER have.


Tier I Players|

Of course being starting characters these Players have nothing at all. A few quests go by and they get just enough to begin their careers but trying to find the funds for anything that is not absolutely essential is beyond their ability. They are struggling to get the coin to buy Refurbished gear so they can go hunt. They are doing good to make 1~5 Silver an Hour in their Grinding and each Silver seems like a Million Bucks to them.

[walkerglassmire]

Because there is a lot of talk about economy and coin sinks in this game I think it is very important to put into perspective who has what amount of coin and what earning potential vs. their need for coin. Very often the coin cost of things is weighted toward the old vets in an attempt to get their cash but this is very unfair to everyone else as I will illustrate.

I agree, though I have a couple specific comments I'll list below...

Note: Biped Crafters in all Tiers will require many times the amount of Coin to stay viable compared to Dragons due to the immense number of forms they must buy in comparison.

I'm gonna leave this one alone, as this is not the place for argument on this.

Tier VI Players|

This group has every Form and Tech in Triplicate. They have hundreds of Gold and besides buying an occasional Comp from someone else and funding some work on their Plot they have NOTHING to do with their Coin. They are desperate for entertaining little things to blow coin on. Fun perks that make them look more unique or can be fun props for RP. They want to get fluff that requires vast Coinage to make their hoard of money worthwhile. They do not need any more coin and it has next to no value to them whatsoever. Copper? What is that? Silver? I use it for Toilet Paper. Gold? I have coated everything in my Lair in Gold. I Gold Plated the walls, floors, ceiling, furniture, work benches, shrubberies outside, and even some of my food in Gold. My whole world glitters in golden splendor. I am even considering some substantial Platinum in the near future.

This is the one I'm gonna go after, because quite simply, it's a drastic oversimplification and in a number of cases, flat out wrong. I've been here for over 6 years now I think it is. Have a lvl 100/100/100 dragon that's been there for a few years now. Am working on a biped, primarially crafter. All in all, I'd say I quallify as a T6 player. The most coin I've ever had is 6 gold. Ever. The only reason I had that much is from selling a guild master plot after the prices all changed. A number of my friends are also not flush with coin. Never have been. With all the new forms that I've needed to buy, both dragon and biped, across all characters I'm down to about 1.5 gold. Maybe. And I still need to buy the dragon scale broken item form when it comes out, etc, etc, etc. Simply assuming that old players have TONS of cash is a bad assumption.

Now that I've picked on you a bit, let me completely redirect at where the problem is. That the devs are making the same assumption that you are, that all the older players are flush with cash, just waiting to flood the market with it.

It has been brought up many times in many threads, but you can not force an economy into the game. It has to build itself naturally, and that economy may not include coin in it's operations. Is barter and trade not a form of economy?

(To use a recent example) Setting the Form/Tech-Tron prices so high that no-one can afford to use them, then they are wasted effort. Things like that need to be geared towards the newer players. That do not have coin. That do want to have forms. Will the older players with all the money destroy the market but overusing the Trons, most likely not. An additional consideration is how the market works in general.

(Pulling from Order, where I have my expereince) It is genreally VERY difficult to find anything useful much of the time on any of the connies... late at night. There is a small community that plays the game in the late night hours (or middle of the day for the Aussies) and I've wandered by the Aug connie many times to find it almost empty. This makes it very difficult for newer players, or even older players, to get things they need. There are no form/tech farmers plastering the connies with their wares for the crafters to buy. And the loot changes have IMHO made it even more difficult and confusing to find the things you need (but again, that's a different arguement for a different place). These are the people that need the Trons to be a reasonable price, so we can make equipement for ourselves and each other. There are few master crafters on late night anymore. And the new players that would love to fill the void find more and more they can not because they can not get all the forms they need.

I apologize for the hijack, but this is importiant and is being missed/ignored by those with the power to do something about it. I've made suggestions for fixes in other places, so I won't go into them here. But, this is a problem.

[Andaras]

Okay, like SiLang, I am going to have to disagree with this:

Tier VI Players|

This group has every Form and Tech in Triplicate. They have hundreds of Gold and besides buying an occasional Comp from someone else and funding some work on their Plot they have NOTHING to do with their Coin. They are desperate for entertaining little things to blow coin on. Fun perks that make them look more unique or can be fun props for RP. They want to get fluff that requires vast Coinage to make their hoard of money worthwhile. They do not need any more coin and it has next to no value to them whatsoever. Copper? What is that? Silver? I use it for Toilet Paper. Gold? I have coated everything in my Lair in Gold. I Gold Plated the walls, floors, ceiling, furniture, work benches, shrubberies outside, and even some of my food in Gold. My whole world glitters in golden splendor. I am even considering some substantial Platinum in the near future.


In listed rebuttal:
1 - Form/tech X3? Hardly, I am still seeking many Boons/bounties/blessings,
and flushing out my T4 techs.
2 - 100's of gold? Never have I ever broke 20 gold. If I combined the coin
from all of my many toons I doubt I could even get 100 Gold. Maybe,
Just maybe I'd reach 100 G if I sould all my plots too.
3 - gold plated walls? I wish, I'd love the ability to add interior decor
into my houses/halls. I have a pouch of Hoardables in my vault I'd like
to put into a display in my home!

With these things said, I do have many many items stashed in storage
that are triplicate (or more). Just not ALL. If they did allow me that
many stacks, I'd be a worse Pack-Kitty than I already am.

I don't use the Consigners much, as I have an extreme distaste to
the "returned to vault" stage - thus I do not make money from selling
anything. I Barter and Trade.

As a budding Outfitter/Armorer 7 years ago I was an avid seller of
plain Bronze armors - selling several complete sets a day. Than again,
our population was much bigger than. I stopped selling Armors once
I hit T3. It just isn't practical to make something and have it never
sell due to not being "completely to spec". I prefer the players
that want armor seek me out - supplying the appropriate Comps.
(I will supply Skill, Bars, and Orbs)

I seriously wish there was a "board" that displayed all the players that
could make Customised Armor. Maybe a tab on the Consigners that
would display a preset player-search for the appropriate Trade skills?

To get back on topic, it is a bad assumption to be making that the Elder
(Teir VI) players are "all that the lower teirs are not" and that creating
massive Coin Sinks are what we drool for.

SiLang also mentioned something I've harped on before and will repeat:
FORCING an economy is not a good idea. Without the population, you
will not have an economy. Should the population ever grow back to
Post-release size, you will see a booming economy, no forcing required.

respectfully,
Andaras.

P.S. Shinkuu, should you ever be in the need for something, please look
me up. I will gladly do what I can to help others when I am awake.

[Blue Hasia]

Note: Biped Crafters in all Tiers will require many times the amount of Coin to stay viable compared to Dragons due to the immense number of forms they must buy in comparison.

good topic good read,

but i got to say that tid bit you said their can be turned around because yes bipeds have more craft school......but that means they can profit off those schools alot more than a dragon can ever hope to archive

[LOVWYRM]

I agree: We shall not have an economy like there is in other games, as long as we live together like "a big family" on all shards .
And as long there are 50% of players who do not need anything, but are willing to share their possessions with those who need something. For free.
I read it often in several threads: New players do not want to beg for something, they want and need the feeling, that they are able to care for themselves on their own.

There are 2 measures that could solve some of that probs:
Lets get rid of that

- "return to vault" thing (solutions have been made in other threads)

- "max consignment" cap (solutions have been made in other threads)

A lot of (vet) players are willing to fill the consis with useful things.
But esp. these two things prevent them from doing.

Its absurd, that a player, who worked three days to produce needed items,
has to ask other players to put it in consis for him- or otherwise he would have to make a new sub. Esp. if he does not need the coin.

And most of vets are on their limits concerning free space to store something. If stuff returns to vault- it gets deleted. All work was in vain.

[Raptress]

To satisfy my own curiosity, I spent an hour straight with no stops hunting Fire Opal Golems. Here are the results:

15 Elemental Globules (33s)
15 Elemental Slivers (20s 625c)
70 Elemental Residue (66s 500c)
66 Fire Opal Golem Gemstones (96s 267c)
35 Fire Opal Golem Chips (36s 450c + 11s 138c)
= 218s 530c

These are the maximum NPC prices for these items: trophies went to a trophy hunter and the others went to a T6 pawnbroker (pays the same as Rahool). The split in the chips is because the first pawnbroker I used only took thirty. I went to a different one to sell the last five.

Now, I did this with Malestryx who is a T6 character, so I expect a character that is at similar level to the golems would be a little slower. I'd guess that they would still get about 150s for an hour of straight grinding provided they sell everything they get. So that means, using Fire Opal Golems, you'll make one gold between 5 and 7 hours.

The only comparison I have between that and the old loot system is that I remember having about four gold after leveling Malestryx to 100, and I had made no significant purchases during that time. So unless it only took me 24-30 hours to get him to 100, I'd say we're probably making more money now.

[Dragonboy]

* Walks in the thread with a very large adamantium strengthened thornwood soap box, places it down and stands on it *

The only reason SOME end game players have a huge amount of coin is due to multiple reasons…
1. Selling of rare epic weapons / forms / insert rare item here.
2. Grinding, grinding, grinding for tech. comps and gaining loads of junk loot / coin bags.
3. Trophies, trophies, trophies… Did I say trophies?

In the last 40 levels of using trophies with Gallinthus I gained large amounts of coin… Ran out very quickly due to vault upgrades but nonetheless the coin I got was substantial.
Imagine a biped player grinding its way to rating 278… And trophy quests for most of the 28 adv schools. This would turn out into a ridiculous amount of coin for the player gained from these quests. Considering we have more and more rating 278 bipeds you can imagine were the coin is. True that some players attempt to buy trophies from players decreasing the amount that player has, but other players do not do this.

[Thicklesip]

I suspect Shinkuu's overestimation of how much money the T6 players are packing is due to the fact that they COULD be sporting that much money-- they've had the time and means. In reality, around the time you have enough gold to finish buying all the plots/vault upgrades/forms/techs/whatevers you want, you stop striving to get more gold. You'll definitely keep accumulating it over time if you don't have anything to spend it on, but there's a pretty big income difference between someone who happens to make a little money in the course of a day and someone who intentionally sets out to show those evil moneybags a thing or two with regularity.

I also wanted to throw out a little thought I had the other day. By the standards players have had for years the new form/tech system is massively inferior to the old one. It used to be that Joe Shmoe could start with 50 copper in his pocket and some free time and work his way up to a perfect form/tech list. It took time, yes. It took money, yes. And there was always going to be some luck. But acquiring, say, a batch of 5 new forms wasn't ruinous to one's time (farming mobs) or money (buying usually from the connie with a little patience, sometimes the class vendor themself). Now? I'm admittedly "bad" at the combat side of thing but I've been poking various pockets of T1 Aegis to look for forms, techs, and crystals. The best thing I found so far was... maggots. And that's only for crystals-- I cannot seem to find anything I can easily farm for forms or techs; all I end up with are broken item parts, hoard, or refurbished armor. Mostly hoard. Lots... and lots of hoard.

I hope I'm just looking in the wrong spots, but it's very frustrating that my old recourse to "you want HOW MUCH for those forms?!" isn't that viable anymore. I can go out, spend 15 minutes running in circles smacking everything blighted that moves, and come back to town with 3 forms in my bags. (And 20 hoard items, 8 refurbished armor pieces, and 12 broken items.) If enough people go out and come back with a fistful of forms/techs where they'd previously have had so many they'd be pawning the ones already for sale, eventually there might possibly be a respectable number available, across the entire community.

Oh wait no we can still only list things for a week. Nevermind, we're never going to have a good tech/form selection on consignment.

And I think that's what the change boils down to. Everything worked one way for years and years, and now it's different. Primarily in ways that make everything harder or more expensive for players. I don't know if the old way was "too easy"-- I've done my share of whining about how clogged the supply of T5 stuff was. But under the current system, the concept that Joe Shmoe could build up a perfect book of Knowledge without playing another 6 years is gone. At best there's a massive, MASSIVE money-grind to buy everything from the vendors. If it's not for sale on the vendors, you're at the mercy of a tight-fisted RNG, either through drops or the One-Armed Banditrons. Maybe it's supposed to be a team-building exercise for the playerbase: if none of us can do it all, we're forced to rely on each other that much more.

On the other hand this change massively, MASSIVELY imbalances power into the hands of the oldies, because they got to fill out their Knowledge tabs while everything was cheap and reasonably plentiful. And they're also the ones who stand a shot of having enough money built up to be able to buy the few things they didn't have yet, no grind required.

Maybe we'll adjust over time. Maybe we'll come to accept that things were too easy under the old system and it wasn't making us any happier to have forms raining from the sky on command. On the other hand, this feels to me like a clunky, inelegant attempt to do something about the coin supply, with the tech/form system as collateral damage. And that... that makes me unhappy. The old system required an investment I though slightly on the more intense side-- I could do it, but only because I have more free time than anyone finds reasonable, and I came loaded with a nice little head-start from my old days on Spirit shard. Under the new system, with my ability to play more hours every day than some people can find time to sleep AND sporting a T6 main now, I expect it'd take me 2-4 times as long. I do not think that is reasonable.

I can think of a couple directions the current system could be tweaked to make it less grindy and punishing (and make no mistake, that's currently what it is)-- the current system doesn't strike me as utterly unworkable. I don't even have any particular preference for how it'd be tweaked. I just don't like how the current system features all of the grind and time-sinking of the old system, dialed up to 11, with no additional fun to compensate.

[Frith-Rae]

I agree with what Thicklesip is saying with her point about that is what Tier VI players COULD be sitting with, even though I am not one of those described Teir V players myself.

Level 90, been in game since day one, I have 550 silver to my name and have had about that much steady for the past several years since lairs came out.

I had over one gold once, right before the launch of lairs and the auctions and I ONLY had that much because of many nice other dragons donated to my cause to help me get my lair in Chiconis - I myself probably had ground and worked up to 700-800 silver alone to save up for the lair. The rest was donated. That was probably in my 80s, since I"ve not adventured much since lairs launched =D

I may not be the "average adventurer" but I'm probably that older crafter. My income has stayed steady through years of crafting because of the random mobs I have to kill to harvest resources to pay for portal fees I've used. I've spent no money outside of that, and earned little money outside of that.

I've tried to connie anything I loot that might be useful - but they rarely sell - leading me to have to pawn most things after trying to sell them for a month or more.

What I make for crafting I couldnt' make money from for selling - and the idea of grinding all those materials and NOT putting them on my lair is just gutwrenching..lol.

So even though I'm level 90 - I actually fit in with the Tier IV player's thought about their money. I do see that I could get a gold if I worked my butt off for it - but not doing it crafting at all.

I honestly believe there are more elder-players (both as just level 100 in two months or 7 years for those of us left..) who aren't swimming in tons of gold than elder players who ARE. But I guess its all in who you associate with, most of the players I'm familiar with aren't "rich", but they aren't grinding-out-adventurers either gaining tons of coin every day. Whereas I guess if I was hanging out with a bunch of adventuring maxxers I'd be the poor one .

[Shadina]

How the old players got rich, or if they got rich, or how they COULD have gotten rich is all a bit beside the point.

A number of the posters on this thread have already nailed it. The devs seem to THINK there's a huge problem with disposible income in the game. Theyve been told that there is too much money chasing too few goods, and it seems they stopped listening right before 'chasing'.

So, is there too much money? If many of the posters on this thread are to be believed, there is not. Even the oldest players by and large are not swimming in gold, it seems.

We have one of two problems, then. Either the folks at VI belive that the only thing that can really save the game is hardcore cash sinks, or they simply fail at gauging what is a fair market price for goods in the game right now.

Or, there is the third option, which is that they have made the calculated decision that all new content should be geared exclusively towards long-time players, and so the higher prices are intended to scare the newer players away from that content, but that's an ugly conspiracy theory that I won't persue any further.

If either of the first two reasons is true, then the devs have to be educated a bit. I think just a few quick points have to be made.

1. There is NOT an overabundance of cash in the game right now. The new Junk loot is helping the cash supply, but since the Trophy cash output nerf of last summer there has been a lack of coin, not a glut of it.

2. When pricing a new item, one should take into account other similar items. For instance, if a Journeyman formula typically costs 7-10 silver, roughly, then a new Journeyman formula should probably not cost 160 silver. As a second example, if a T3 Tech generally costs 8 silver, than an object that gives out a random tech, which is unlikely to contain the tech that the buyer wants, this item should cost LESS than a normal tech, not five times MORE. The buyer is likely to buy multiples of them in order to get the tech that they want.

We can only hope and pray that the devs take these lessons to heart, and use them to improve the game for those of us who aren't swimming in gold, which is apparently the majority of us.

[Shinkuu]

We have one of two problems, then. Either the folks at VI belive that the only thing that can really save the game is hardcore cash sinks, or they simply fail at gauging what is a fair market price for goods in the game right now.


1. There is NOT an overabundance of cash in the game right now. The new Junk loot is helping the cash supply, but since the Trophy cash output nerf of last summer there has been a lack of coin, not a glut of it.

2. When pricing a new item, one should take into account other similar items. For instance, if a Journeyman formula typically costs 7-10 silver, roughly, then a new Journeyman formula should probably not cost 160 silver. As a second example, if a T3 Tech generally costs 8 silver, than an object that gives out a random tech, which is unlikely to contain the tech that the buyer wants, this item should cost LESS than a normal tech, not five times MORE. The buyer is likely to buy multiples of them in order to get the tech that they want.

We can only hope and pray that the devs take these lessons to heart, and use them to improve the game for those of us who aren't swimming in gold, which is apparently the majority of us.

Or they made their decision based on the recommendation of those Old Players who ARE swimming in Gold because they speak up readily around here whenever a change is looming. Either that or it is the ones who have everything and simply do not NEED Gold or anything else and are terrified of having anyone else come up the ranks and join them at the top. So they try their hardest to give VI the impression that they should make everything as hard as possible to avoid that happening.

Which is why, no matter what, I will not be silent. I purposefully try to play the game in the style that I suspect any newer player would be playing it assuming they do not have many contacts or methods of getting what they want outside of game mechanics and the available markets. I do this so I can attempt to give as objective a view as possible on how things should be changed to improve the experience and to combat the sorts I just mentioned.

The Devs cannot be blamed for making bad pricing decisions if all they get for feedback is made up garbage that is intended to halt and delay players which will only lead to their frustration. The only way they can make good decisions is IF people like myself and others who try their best to be objective and fair speak up and give them a good spectrum of opinions and ideas. So be active and be part of the process. The game does not make itself and the Devs here openly welcome our help and assistance in making the game better by telling them how it plays. We are the only ones who really can give them that very valuable input and need to stay on it.


Your two points there are wonderfully put and correct.

[LOVWYRM]

[QUOTE=Shinkuu;261936 Either that or it is the ones who have everything and simply do not NEED Gold or anything else and are terrified of having anyone else come up the ranks and join them at the top. So they try their hardest to give VI the impression that they should make everything as hard as possible to avoid that happening.
.[/QUOTE]

Shin, this is neither objective-nor fair speak

[Shian]

The way I see it, the Devs are currently in a lose/lose situation.

The current loot revamp: All the Satyr island hunters voiced the fact that they will not be viable hunters anymore.

Devs saw that and took it to heart. They had two options,

1. Side with the players and make the price high enough so that players can still sell whatever it is that needs to be sold at a more reasonable price.

2. Make the price low so that the hunters come back with more "Oh God you are killing my only incentive to play!"

I don't see a single hunter in this thread, or any other concerning NPC prices celebrating the fact that they can still make money by hunting.

Only players complaining that the prices are too high. So which is it Istaria? The mob mind is so fickle that it forgets what it said not an hour (patch) ago!

[Holth]

The way I see it, the Devs are currently in a lose/lose situation.

The current loot revamp: All the Satyr island hunters voiced the fact that they will not be viable hunters anymore.

Devs saw that and took it to heart.

Well did they? Really?

Before the loot revamp, hunters loved the satyr islands because the mobs dropped comps that were sellable and needed, constantly. Now, after the loot revamp mobs drop tier 5 broken items that were sellable for the first week they came out. Once everyone has one the market is gone. At this time I have no reason to hunt the satyr islands. Since the loot revamp, I have hunted many different areas, come away with many forms and techs and comps, which I have listed on Sir Aidan and Lady Aida for less than 1 silver each. Most every one of them has come back to my vault except tier 1 and tier 2 stuff. I am rating 186. What fun is hunting tier 1 and 2 mobs for me? And the time it takes me to list all the tier 1 and 2 forms and techs is not worth the few coins I make.

Nadia has all the new comps listed for exchange. This was a viable way for folks to exchange obsolete comps for ones they need. So what comps are even being hunted now? Most folks have stores of comps - current and obsolete - and just exchange what they need as they need it. I have hunted and listed new comps for sale and again, they just return to my vault. There will be no need for new comp hunters for months or even years depending on the extent of players stores of old/new comps.

Hunters will only hunt as long as there is something for them to sell. Broken weapons (and don't get me wrong, these were a great addition to the game) and forms, techs, comps are only worth something if folks need them.

This is a fantasy game. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? Why should we not be able to all have the best gear, weapons, tools, etc? This is not real life where a few are rich and most are middle class or poor. Why does there have to be an ecomomy? Why CAN'T we just help each other because it's the right thing to do? This is a diversion from the day-to-day realities of real life. A place to come rest your soul and be at peace for the time you can play. Which means this game should be fun, not frustrating.

Right now this game relies on the older players to keep it going. The number of new players I see come into this game is very low and 90% (or more) of them don't stay. The learing curve is too steep and they feel useless in a game that takes years to master. There is nothing they can contribute to the community to make them feel like they are needed. We, the elder players are getting to the point where we feel that all we are doing is damage control. We answer questions, we keep the NT connie loaded with items that new players need and can't make for themselves right away. We test new content and report bugs and try to make suggestions. We offer our help in game and in the forums.

When a new player comes into Istaria they get through the starter island and go to New Trismus. Everything is new and there are so many possibilities. They can hunt, but wait! They need armour and a weapon. How do they get it? Well they can make it. But wait! To make armour they have to craft. So now they need tools and a cargo disk. How do they get those? Well they can make them. But wait! To make tools they need coin to buy the forms to make the tools. To make cargo gear and a disk they need to grind craft levels to become a tinker. But wait! To grind craft levels they need a cargo disk. But wait! They need coin to buy forms. It becomes a vicious circle and the new player is now so confused they don't know what to do. With so few new players to interact with, the very few that stick with the game have more patience and endurance than I can imagine.

So we, the elder players try to help. We give them what they need or we try to keep the connies stocked. And the new players feel useless. And we see the frustration and confusion and our hearts bleed a bit more each day as a new player we tried to help yesterday never comes back. Because we REALLY DO want them to be able to do things for themselves and have all that we have. Because we understand that love of Istaria comes from the accomplishment of doing things for yourself. Of contributing to the world, each in their own small way.

What needs to come from this dev team is a way to "hook" the new/low level players. Things they can do/take part in/contribute to the community and the player base to make them feel needed and important. Things that only new/low level players can do. Tutorials and trainer interactions that go beyond the starter island for bipeds. Craft trainers that teach how to make/tech items and give out forms/techs for learning the craft beyond making a belt. Building trainers that do the same. Quest arcs for adventurers from their school trainers that go beyond New Trismus into Kion and Sslanis and then meet up with the world quest arcs toward Bristugo and Dalimond. New players flounder because after level 10 they have nowhere to turn to learn more about their chosen schools. Except the elder players. So we try to help them and they hit "information overload" and they leave.

And that is why we, the elder players, try to make our voices heard here in the forums. Not because we want everything our way. Not because we want to be elitists. But because we love this game and want to see it be around for many years to come. And most of all, because we want new players to come in and learn to love the game as much as we do.

Thaalia of Order

[Uther Blade]

Tier VI Players

This group has every Form and Tech in Triplicate. They have hundreds of Gold and besides buying an occasional Comp from someone else and funding some work on their Plot they have NOTHING to do with their Coin. They are desperate for entertaining little things to blow coin on. Fun perks that make them look more unique or can be fun props for RP. They want to get fluff that requires vast Coinage to make their hoard of money worthwhile. They do not need any more coin and it has next to no value to them whatsoever. Copper? What is that? Silver? I use it for Toilet Paper. Gold? I have coated everything in my Lair in Gold. I Gold Plated the walls, floors, ceiling, furniture, work benches, shrubberies outside, and even some of my food in Gold. My whole world glitters in golden splendor. I am even considering some substantial Platinum in the near future.

Thanks for assuming that we "Elder Players" are the evil corporations of Istaria keeping you down. Yes, please attack those that have no control in a game in which we also pay a subscription to play.
　
Many of use to play everyday, and while I have some gold as in more than 1, I'd not characterize this as swimming in gold.. maybe swimming in silver. There is an equal chance to make coin in the game, probably still is.

You speak of ecconomy like it is the aswer to the question. This game has had no ecconomy since before its first full year ended, (I've played since March of 2004). You don't need an MBA or a degree in ecconomics to see that the idea of an ecconomy is ludicris. This game has worked without an ecconomy upto the changes implimented and vocally opposed by over 50% of the elder players.

Here is the correct formula to getting an ecconomy in Istaria. Players=ecconomy. You can't have an ecconomy when you don't have a player base.

The devs have continually dropped the ball when it comes to getting info out about the game. I'm not talking about TV spots.. I talking about free adds and stories on sites like 'Massivly.com'. My wife has posted several pics there and SHE was the one to get someone from that site to come play Istaria for a week and write a review about it. Not the dev team.

Attacking your fellow players is not a wise move. I understand your frustrated that you can't craft everything for yourself and need help.. but this is not helpful to you, your fellow players or the game.
　

Or they made their decision based on the recommendation of those Old Players who ARE swimming in Gold because they speak up readily around here whenever a change is looming. Either that or it is the ones who have everything and simply do not NEED Gold or anything else and are terrified of having anyone else come up the ranks and join them at the top. So they try their hardest to give VI the impression that they should make everything as hard as possible to avoid that happening.

"NEED Gold"? I've played for years and do manage to play without a lot of gold. Many of use to play everyday and while I have some gold as in more than 1 I'd not characterize this as "swimming in gold".. maybe swimming in silver. There was an equal chance to make coin in the game at all times, probably still is.

To suggest that you are oppressed in a fantasy game? Really? This game is a game of merit, you have what you have based on putting you nose to the grindstone. IF I had hundreds of gold it would be because I did the work... nothing more, nothing less!! And you can do it too!!

Which is why, no matter what, I will not be silent. I purposefully try to play the game in the style that I suspect any newer player would be playing it assuming they do not have many contacts or methods of getting what they want outside of game mechanics and the available markets. I do this so I can attempt to give as objective a view as possible on how things should be changed to improve the experience and to combat the sorts I just mentioned.

　
I remember that this is a war fantasy game with a superior crafting system and ownership model. I remember the Withered Ageis is the whole fondation of the story of Istaria. There would be no Istaria without the war. Now the WA are just a simple mob that populate the world and have no real purpose. So its not even the same game that started. Bottom line is no players no game. This game needs to be what the players want. And we elder players remember the origins of this game. Drive us out with your vitriol and there will be no game.
　

The Devs cannot be blamed for making bad pricing decisions if all they get for feedback is made up garbage that is intended to halt and delay players which will only lead to their frustration. The only way they can make good decisions is IF people like myself and others who try their best to be objective and fair speak up and give them a good spectrum of opinions and ideas. So be active and be part of the process. The game does not make itself and the Devs here openly welcome our help and assistance in making the game better by telling them how it plays. We are the only ones who really can give them that very valuable input and need to stay on it.

WOW.. to not blame the devs for the failure of the game is like not blaming the rain for it being wet outside.

You speak of a "good spectrum of opinions and ideas", well would that not include ideas that you don't like?

AND.. IF "the devs here openly welcome our help and assistance in making the game better", then why is it they are increasingly abrasive and quick to tell us to deal with it.. or just simply post they expect us to leave and go play other games?

I'd say, yes, please give input.. but your attack on your fellow players is not input and does not add value to the game.

[LOVWYRM]

*bows to Thaalia*

can only sign what you`ve said

[Andaras]

I will also add my signature to what Thaalia, Uther, and Lovwyrm
have stated here.

Shadina hit the nail on the head in her post with two points:

"it seems they (the DEVS) stopped listening"

and

"then the devs have to be educated a bit"

Unfortunately those two create a vicious circle we are stuck in right now.

I've repeatedly stated and been ignored by them that one cannot
FORCE an economy. Get the player base larger and the economy
will return. All the recent changes have done is shift and flood
the market, nothing more. Oh, it DID remove the reason for Component
Hunters to remain.

the Devs continue to fix things that are not broken "to help new players",
all the while breaking 12 things elsewhere making life more difficult for
established players.

I sincerely hope someone at VIT reads this and takes it to heart.
Andaras

[Chasing]

Okay

It's clear that the latest patch hasn't met some peoples expectations. And to a certain extent I agree.

Let me give you my stance. I do believe the loot revamp is a good idea as a concept. When it comes to execution we are hitting issues.

My concern is that the loot revamp / economy revive is only half done. The drops have been changed but not enough has been done to address the balance issues.

Thaalia and Uther raise some good points (Andaras I couldn't read your full post as it has been edited )

If I am going to be constructive rather than critical then I see a couple of things that exacerbate potential issues

1. Content gets added and then doesn't get 'fixed' / 'rebalanced' / 'bug fixed' quick enough.
2. VI moves on from one piece of content to another too quickly. My assumption is that this is too much reliance on internal deadlines without allowing enough slippage. Lets be honest here, this loot revamp needs many more months of content adding to address the other side of the changes.
3. When players kick off, VI isn't responding to them quick enough. If you talk or explain reasons to a person you get 2 way feedback. Customer service 101, whats the 1st thing a member of staff asks when a customer has a complaint/greviance?
4. Many players gets frustrated because their own personal play style has been disrupted by a content change. The other side to this is that VI has to make changes that are fair across all different playstyles. This means that someone is always going to be disappointed, where as someone might be made happy. Its a trade off.

The simple formula for an economy I see as

Incoming Money Generator + Players + Demand = Economy - Outgoing Moneysinks

I can go on for a while about a lot more on this subject, but unfortunately I have to goto work.

Here is a summary of what I am trying to say.

It is not players vs VI. Even though it is very easy to fall into that category and think it is. If you want to get feedback across you need to be constructive rather than aggressive (even though you may feel very angry).

On the other side of this, VI needs to take more time to talk to players publically (Amon has started to do this by logging into the shards but that only gets a snapshot). Explaining changes to content and talking to players goes a long way.

[Vortura]

Put very simply, it's all about supply and demand.

Here's my suggestion for one way that people can make money.

Figure out what techs are the most popular.
At a guess and across all tiers, I'd say they'd be along the lines of:
Str, Dex, Pow, Foc, Speed, velocity, T&C, Primal, Mining, Quarrying, stoneworking, Smelting.
Now, list the comps that are required to use those techs.
Hunt down the mobs that drop those comps. Loot the comps.
Put the comps up for sale on the Consigner at a comparable price to other comps of the same tier.

Take note of the rate at which the comps sell. Adjust your price as necessary.
Things which sell quickly are obviously in demand and you can probably raise your selling price. Those which return to your vault aren't probably worth the time to gather and waste your hard earned money on a consignment fee.

The harder it is to get a comp, because the mobs are a great distance from a landing pad or the mobs are particularly tough, or the area is dangerous, or the drop rate is fairly low, the greater you can expect your reward for selling that comp.

That's why I could sell Blue vexator Fringes easily for 100 silver while T5 Blight Bindings dropped back into everyone's vaults at 1s each.

Now that I've given up the magic formula for how I made about 150 gold over 2-3 years, other players can utilise it to make their millions... however.....

There is one other problem that the OP and others still haven't picked up on. Those old players are sitting on Guild Halls and vaults full of old comps that can only be used with our dearly beloved Nadia to get the new useful comps. Therefore, they have no need to get out and hunt or participate in an economy because that pile of 400 or so T5 Blight Bindings looted while PLing up another class to 100 will see them right for the next year or three.

BTW I've spent a bit of that gold I earnt on getting my plot built, which I then trashed and moved elsewhere to rebuild again. I purposely rebuilt using T1 and T2 structures so that newer players could earn some coin. Indeed, some new or returning players did earn plenty of coin for their building efforts and a few older players got their money back from the comps I sold them.
Now I'm just waiting for the next lot of plot structures to be released so I've got something else to do with my money.

[Chasing]

Put very simply, it's all about supply and demand.

Yep

Here is an interesting example

We all know that consumables sell - Potions, Tech Comps, Food, Trophies, Base resources.

Plot/Lair building 'sells' (although maybe at a slower rate)

Where we fall down is with which is in one way a strength, but in another a weakness.

Nearly all equipment/spells etc can be customised via techniques.

Great for someone to use, bad for someone to make money from.

How can a crafter produce the right product (techniqued) to match the needs of the consumer. Take a suit of armor that is 10+ pieces plus a silly amount of technique options.

No clear way to work out what type the consumer exactly wants without the consumer (aka another player) telling the crafter exactly what they want on a certain piece of equipment.

Therefore premaking techniqued items and consigning them will most likely not work. Bear in mind the timesink of acquiring the right combination of tech comps in the first place.

Therefore a lot, if not the majority of techniqued equipment just don't get made and sold directly on the connies. Instead we have players contacting players directly and then bypassing coin completely via an exchange ("You supply the tech comps I will make your armor for free" etc).

Easy solution - Implement post creation technique kits in a either a crafted and/or loot dropped fashion to open up a new market and create a better demand for untechniqued gear (as the end consumer can apply the techs they want directly). Yes I know this has been mentioned many times before and even agreed as a good concept by the devs. Want to kick start the economy? put in new demand streams (aka tech kits).

Difficult solution - Item decay/repair - Controversial but it would open up new supply and demand channels *if* put in correctly. Put in badly could wreck the game (doesnt fix all of the customising issue thou)

*Watches everyone go mad about Item Decay/Repair*