Lifespans?

[Essra]

I've been wondering for some time now...
Is there any lore about how long the different races actually live? I have been unable to find anything about it...and honestly I do not believe that measuring age by saying "the equivalent of x in human years" is adequate. I understand that supposedly the player is gifted and thus age is rather a non-issue...

but there ARE those who roleplay their character as being a non-gifted individual. And besides that it would be helpful when developing a backstory, whether gifted or not. After all, even the gifted weren't always so, right?

How long does, say, a saris live? A dryad? An elf or dwarf?
What of the Sslik and half-giants? And the others? Furthermore, when do they reach maturity? Does this lore even exist?

Another interesting tidbit, though I suppose of no actual use, would be how long dragons lived before they lost the ability to age with the fall of the Sleeper?

Actually, come to that, do they have a lifespan now? The non-gifted ones? O.o

[awdz]

I actually asked this of the devs recently and got this answer:
What are the general life expectancies of the various races?
Present Day? Immortal. Before? Humans, Half-Giants, Saris, and Sslik 60 to 100 years. Elves, Dwarves, Dryad, Gnomes, Satyr 200 to 250 years. Dragons, many hundreds.

I do not know if "immortal" means that everyone in the living races becomes gifted when they die, or just that only gifted rate notice. It's also not clear to me if there are still children born among the living races.

[Essra]

Hmm. thanks awdz.

...however, that doesn't seem like a very good answer.

They can't be immortal... the gift is SUPPOSED to be -rare-. And besides that, aren't they supposed to 'fade' eventually? the gifted? Making even them not immortal; only un-killable.

I also cannot imagine that out of 10 different races, there are only 3 different life expectancies. Why should humans, saris, half giants, and sslik all have exactly the same lifespans? that makes no sense at all...

And what's with dragons being 'many hundreds'? D: Three hundred? Six hundred? One thousand seven hundred? What're we talkin' here?


....it would be greatly appreciated if the Devs could shed some light on this.

...some -additional- light..?
*sighs* I would think this to be the sort of thing that is the FIRST thing one does when they make up races for a game. Granted, virtrium didn't have the game since the very start... so.. At any rate, there are a lot of similar gaps in the lore. I guess lore generation probably got shunted to a backseat, what with the game having as rough a history as it has. Or so it would seem from where I'm sitting.

[Sereamha]

wow, I guessed elves being around 250...:B I was right...fancy that LOL

[Raptress]

And besides that, aren't they supposed to 'fade' eventually? the gifted? Making even them not immortal; only un-killable.

I'm fairly sure Fading is player lore. Its primary use is to explain people who have quit the game. I have never seen Fading mentioned in any official lore.

[Essra]

I'm fairly sure Fading is player lore. Its primary use is to explain people who have quit the game. I have never seen Fading mentioned in any official lore.

Oh. Well I hadn't thought of that. You're probably right. :P

Players are all immortal and have the Gift. So that isn't Rare for them. NPCs and the "unseen" population, it becomes murky and really not very relevant to official lore. NPCs are in awe of the Gifted and treat them as the Heroes players are. Otherwise, its not really addressed.

Its a fantasy world. It doesn't have to all make sense by our standards of realism. Besides, all players are Gifted so effectively immortal. Lifespan means nothing to them any longer.

You are right, it isn't defined. Not really any reason to nail it down. It serves no official purpose. If, at some point, it becomes needed for in-game lore as part of a quest or story, then we will define it. For now, many hundreds. Which means you can RP it however you like.

I'll be honest, Amon, I don't think that details like that are unimportant or irrelevant. Nonetheless, I appreciate the response. ^^

[stephan27]

Well, you can always assume the lifespan by looking it real creatures and other stories:

Humans: 70 to 90 like in real life

Saris: Lions live 15 years in the wild. Cats have 9 lifes so 15x9=135 years

Sslik: Some Crocs live up to 70 years and considering the place Sslik live, that is a fair number to assume.

Dwarves: In WoW they reach 250 years, so why not?

Gnomes: Also in WoW they reach 200 years.

Elves: In Lord of the Rings they are immortal, so I believe it's safe to assume they can live 10.000 years in Istaria.

Dryad: No idea, 500 years maybe? Nobody plays Dryads anyway, except Awdz of course .

Satyr: sheep live about 14 years. That's short so I'd rather say 140 years.

Half Giants: I'd say shorter lives than humans, 60 to 80 years or so.

Fiends: As they used to be humans, I'd say 70 to 90

Finally Dragon: 10.000 maybe 100.000. Maybe even 1.000.000, who cares? Also, could it be that if dragons die, they turn into fire spirits again and become a new hatchling?

Here you have an idea. See if you do something with it.

[Draeconis]

Also, could it be that if dragons die, they turn into fire spirits again and become a new hatchling?

Funny. I mentioned something along these lines in my guild's chat yesterday (before even seeing this post). I said it would be hilarious if Primal Rebirth actually resurrected an ancient dragon, but made the ancient into a hatchling (since rebirth means a new or second birth: the rebirth of the soul).

[AmonGwareth]

They can't be immortal... the gift is SUPPOSED to be -rare-. And besides that, aren't they supposed to 'fade' eventually? the gifted? Making even them not immortal; only un-killable.

Players are all immortal and have the Gift. So that isn't Rare for them. NPCs and the "unseen" population, it becomes murky and really not very relevant to official lore. NPCs are in awe of the Gifted and treat them as the Heroes players are. Otherwise, its not really addressed.

I also cannot imagine that out of 10 different races, there are only 3 different life expectancies. Why should humans, saris, half giants, and sslik all have exactly the same lifespans? that makes no sense at all...

Its a fantasy world. It doesn't have to all make sense by our standards of realism. Besides, all players are Gifted so effectively immortal. Lifespan means nothing to them any longer.

And what's with dragons being 'many hundreds'? D: Three hundred? Six hundred? One thousand seven hundred? What're we talkin' here?

You are right, it isn't defined. Not really any reason to nail it down. It serves no official purpose. If, at some point, it becomes needed for in-game lore as part of a quest or story, then we will define it. For now, many hundreds. Which means you can RP it however you like.

[Ettanin]

You are right, it isn't defined. Not really any reason to nail it down. It serves no official purpose. If, at some point, it becomes needed for in-game lore as part of a quest or story, then we will define it. For now, many hundreds. Which means you can RP it however you like.

D&D (3.0/3.5, don't know 4.0 sry) defines a lifespan of 2000 years to up to 4000 years, varying by race:
Dragon growth according to D&D stops about at age 1200 and at about a thousand to 3000 years (Time varies by dragon 'sub'race) they start to feel the effects of death by old age*. Most dragons however avoid that so-called twilight by departing (releasing their spirit and eating their entire hoard), becoming a guardian (by becoming a natural landmark) or becoming a dracolich (an undead dragon, only evil dragons would do that).

*) Each year after the defined Twilight Year the dragon must roll a DC20 constitution check. Failure = Permanent death; Success = Live further, lose 1 Constitution point permanently.
Source: Draconomicon D&D3.5

I'd rather assume that dragons for a fact are immortal and cannot die of old age because they are children of the realm of fire, an elemental plane. Being descendants of the fire element, it's imho doubtful that there's a time limit for the mind and body of dragons.
However, i'd rather assume that they grow old with time, being more pain sensitive when their growth has stopped and if their pain grows too much to bear, they'd rather release their spirits to leave the world of istaria forever. Gifted ones continue to grow until they become ancient but won't feel the pain of old ages.

There's one natural problem with immortality, though, but i'd rather not discuss it, because it would be against the forum rules.

[Essra]

I'd rather assume that dragons for a fact are immortal and cannot die of old age because they are children of the realm of fire, an elemental plane. Being descendants of the fire element, it's imho doubtful that there's a time limit for the mind and body of dragons.

Actually, Ettanin... fire is a very volatile but short-lived element. :P If they were truly an embodiment of fire, would they not live short and harried lives?

[awdz]

Besides, all players are Gifted so effectively immortal. Lifespan means nothing to them any longer.

Except when roleplay involves discussion of non-Gifted family & friends, lifespans of the races does matter. It can be crucial to plot developments.

Ettanin[/URL]]D&D (3.0/3.5, don't know 4.0 sry) defines a lifespan of 2000 years to up to 4000 years, varying by race:

This is not official D&D. I had to remind myself of that because I was thinking dragons would be alive longer than "hundreds" implies to me too.

[Vaz]

Players are all immortal and have the Gift. So that isn't Rare for them. NPCs and the "unseen" population, it becomes murky and really not very relevant to official lore. NPCs are in awe of the Gifted and treat them as the Heroes players are. Otherwise, its not really addressed.

Its a fantasy world. It doesn't have to all make sense by our standards of realism. Besides, all players are Gifted so effectively immortal. Lifespan means nothing to them any longer.

You are right, it isn't defined. Not really any reason to nail it down. It serves no official purpose. If, at some point, it becomes needed for in-game lore as part of a quest or story, then we will define it. For now, many hundreds. Which means you can RP it however you like.

I was and am offended by this response. Speechless for ten months.

It seems you weren't thinking very clearly about the implications of your words when you wrote that post, Amon. They suggest you don't understand roleplay and don't care about the roleplayers who contribute to your paycheck. It also seems you weren't thinking very clearly about lore in general, which is concerning when one considers you are a main source of additions and alterations to Istaria's lore.

Point by point:

Players are all immortal and have the Gift. So that isn't Rare for them.

For players, no, the Gift isn't rare--by default we all play Gifted characters. But for those Gifted characters of ours, yes, it is still rare: though they probably don't associate informally with the Giftless very often, they would still be aware that they are a minority in the world.

NPCs and the "unseen" population, it becomes murky and really not very relevant to official lore.

You are right, it isn't defined. Not really any reason to nail it down. It serves no official purpose.

How is it not relevant? How does it serve no purpose? If you're thinking about lore at all you have to realize that it is in fact very relevant and useful. Lifespans would affect Istaria's cultures and therefore its entire history. Lifespan, reproduction method, biological and cultural factors surrounding transitions from childhood to adulthood: these are examples of vital context that (ought to) inform official lore development and usage as well as roleplaying.

Otherwise, its not really addressed.

Why not fix that? You don't even have to do any work yourself. The community can discuss appropriate lifespans using our collective knowledge of lore and you can give our conclusions the Official™ stamp. We have a vested interest in arriving at genuinely sensible conclusions that are consistent with already-established information, so it's not as if we would foul it up in any way.

Besides, all players are Gifted so effectively immortal. Lifespan means nothing to them any longer.

It means a lot to them. Some (or, realistically, many) Gifted characters would have Giftless family and may even (at first) have Giftless friends.
The Gifted can anticipate watching every Giftless person they have ever known die. That can have an effect on a psyche.

If we didn't have any information about, say, the Gnome lifespan, we wouldn't know how long our Gifted Gnome character's mother might live.
Another example: we have a very imprecise estimate of the dragon lifespan, so we don't really know how old our Gifted dragon character's parents could plausibly be (or have been), and that might have a big effect on what their parents experienced and therefore what biases they passed on to our character.

By the way, I notice that Fiends are missing from the info Awdz posted; is their lifespan the same as that of Humans or did Niatha Moraven change them in that way as well? Maybe they were given a longer lifespan to assist their revenge-plotting and enable them to accrue more knowledge and power within a single lifetime?

If, at some point, it becomes needed for in-game lore as part of a quest or story, then we will define it.

So you'd bury it in an obscure quest dialog instead of making it readily available to roleplayers who are making a new character. Typical...

For now, many hundreds. Which means you can RP it however you like.

Until you did suddenly someday feel like saying something more specific about it, at which point you would bury that specificity in an obscure quest dialog and let us be surprised when we find that the speculation you forced us to work with has been invalidated. We've already been waiting over eight years, but additional waiting only worsens the problem--it certainly doesn't improve it. My above proposal to crowdsource the specification of the dragon lifespan, along with any other lifespans that are somehow lacking, would be the best solution because any slack in one discussion-participating player's lore knowledge would be picked up by another's, ultimately only a few minutes of Virtrium's time would be taken, and the community would be more comfortable with invalidation of prior speculation when it is the result of a debate they can read and understand from beginning to end (not to mention the ample forewarning inherently included).


P.S. For those interested in roleplaying and lore development, this thread may be worth a read:
http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=19777

[flamestar]

I'm in agreement with you, Xoshara. These sort of things are important to roleplayers, or at least, most roleplayers I've met. And even for those who don't roleplay, it still makes for very interesting discussions.

I myself have wondered what the lifespans of the different races might be, and how that affects their cultures and other aspects.

Another curiousity to me are the Gifteds' views on the passage of time depending on race, and how time's effect on their non-gifted friends/family/various-other-relations affects them.

And if gifted are truely "ageless" once they have the Gift, how does that affect the non-gifteds' veiws of them?

Are Gifted truely "ageless" once the Gift is "activated" by their first death?

Is that how the Gift works? Do its effects only appear after that first death? Do the Gifted continue to age before then? Do they actually stop ageing afterwards?

If a very young individual, like a child, dies and is "reborn" as Gifted, do they stop ageing and stay a child? For players, this only seems to happen to dragons as hatchlings, but then, how and why does that happen?

I'm sorry to say that I haven't read much of Istarian race lore, so if the answer is in there for my dragon question- than please feel free to let me know.

Also, there's still my question of what happens to the Gifteds' bodies when they die and recall:

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=26068

[Velea]

I think what Amon is saying, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, is that as far as official lore goes, there's nothing established which answers these questions, so you are free to roleplay however you would.

Then again, having read some of the roleplays that happen on Order and Chaos, players don't always stick to officially established lore and will allow themselves that freedom too.

I'm sure he didn't intend to offend. We just give our players freedom to roleplay and use their own creativity.