Talk to the Team: Paladin

[Creme]

I have opened an internal ticket for Mystic Blaze as I haven't decided what to do (if anything) for it yet.

Perhaps considering lowering the recycle on it.

Also how about a life bolt?

[Grodec]

Paladin was my first 100 class also. Since pali is geared toward undead, how about higher blight resistance? Or possibly a remove blight ability. I know when I play my pali, cleanse seems to be my most used spell. After heals that is. JAT Gro

[Ssilmath]

So, rather late and after the fact, I've descended to give my take on Paladins. It was my first class to 100 and I tend to run around in it rather than Shaman. The class itself seems to have a strange combination of mediocrity and specialization. DPS from the class is moderate but not on par with DPS classes. Healing is poor, only really useful for spot healing or staying alive just a little bit longer in a fight. There are a few decent group buffs that encourage grouping, but nothing outstanding nor any group heals or detoxes. Purify is a joke of a detox. Fighting undead seems to be the specialty, but is not very well represented up until the very end of the class. Infusion is there, but a 3% chance is pretty useless. The class also seems like it should tank, but lacks the damage output to hold aggro, and HZ doesn't seem to have any form of taunts that I've seen. There are damage intercepts but those are clunky and situational. Damage types are also very restricted, with only swords available to use at all...<Deep breath>

So, with all of that said, I'd really like to see Paladins get something to distinguish themselves apart from other classes by being the anti undead class/damage absorbing class. Here are some ideas that I've had to make it that way

Stand against Darkness should be a defining trait that starts at 20 and progresses up through the levels until it reaches where it is now. Make Paladins aware from when they start that they are anti undead.

Allow access to Group Health and Health or Minor Health. Augment the ability to heal a bit (not like a dedicated healer though). This shouldn't be game breaking as it is inferior to clerics, while their damage is inferior to warriors.

Give a spell/ability to Pallies that converts all damage into Life. If I understand it correctly, this would give a damage buff against undead while not increasing damage against other enemies. Make it Pally only to keep it under control.

Maybe an aura that provides resistance to cleanses from Aegis or Blight only. The speed with which buffs can be stripped off and debuffs applied is crazy and exceeds what a player can do. (Especially fighting Skulk Shamans) That might be pushing it though.

Give Pallies access to Detox other and group please. Maybe self as well, though not really needed.

I'd also recommend allowing Paladins the ability to wield hammers and clubs. Diversify the weapons they can use just a bit, so that they have at least a little bit more than slashing weapons at their disposal. I do recognize that other classes have restrictions, and would say they should have access to at least one other set of weapons. Not necessarily skill points gained per level though.

In short, I'd like to see something differentiate Paladin from the other classes. Having less dps than Warriors and less healing than Clerics makes for a class that comes up short of being very useful. Getting the niche of Aegis killer would be just the ticket, and beefing up their group support so that they're worthwhile grouping with when not hunting undead.

[Duckies]

Implement Life Attack I-V that requires life skill shoot we have nature(skill) flame energy ice (spells) so why not a spell to add life damage

Heck why not even add a life bolt line of spells to help those poor saps errr healers level a little easier without needing 100 in spiritist or druid

[AmonGwareth]

Now that folks have had some time to play with the changes to Paladin (albeit minor ones) are there any out-standing issues? I know Life Attack is a popular suggestion. Any others?

[hallucin8]

Just one more. By the description of Healing Touch the Paladin is required to be close to the target, but perhaps a little more range wouldn't go astray. Having the Paladin leave battle to use it is not very effective. Also, if not already, have Aura of Light affect spell please (by its description it probably already does, though, just wasn't sure). Thanks for the already implemented changes :D

[AmonGwareth]

After some further thought I could do the following. Thoughts, comments?

Stand Against Darkness
* Not-Masterable
* 120 second recycle (down from 300)
* Change "Stand Against Darkness" to be level 36
* Add new ones at 66 and 96
* I would boost damage by 25% with 1 BonusAttack
* II by 40% with 1 BonusAttacks
* III by 55% with 1 BonusAttacks


Aura of Light
* Not-Masterable
* Change "Aura of Light" to be level 38
* I would have a duration of 25 seconds, boost damage by 10%
* II would have a duration of 40 seconds, boost damage by 25%

[Cegaiel]

Did these changes make it to Delta 259-261? I don't have a Paladin to look. Mainly asking because I didn't see them on the patch notes. Was wondering if the notes was forgotten or if these changes are for the next one? Thanks!

[AmonGwareth]

Did these changes make it to Delta 259-261? I don't have a Paladin to look. Mainly asking because I didn't see them on the patch notes. Was wondering if the notes was forgotten or if these changes are for the next one? Thanks!

No, it was not. I didn't do any of that work until after 261.

[Litarath]

<Snipped for Length>

Stand against Darkness should be a defining trait that starts at 20 and progresses up through the levels until it reaches where it is now. Make Paladins aware from when they start that they are anti undead.

Allow access to Group Health and Health or Minor Health. Augment the ability to heal a bit (not like a dedicated healer though). This shouldn't be game breaking as it is inferior to clerics, while their damage is inferior to warriors.

Give a spell/ability to Pallies that converts all damage into Life. If I understand it correctly, this would give a damage buff against undead while not increasing damage against other enemies. Make it Pally only to keep it under control.

Maybe an aura that provides resistance to cleanses from Aegis or Blight only. The speed with which buffs can be stripped off and debuffs applied is crazy and exceeds what a player can do. (Especially fighting Skulk Shamans) That might be pushing it though.

Give Pallies access to Detox other and group please. Maybe self as well, though not really needed.

I'd also recommend allowing Paladins the ability to wield hammers and clubs. Diversify the weapons they can use just a bit, so that they have at least a little bit more than slashing weapons at their disposal. I do recognize that other classes have restrictions, and would say they should have access to at least one other set of weapons. Not necessarily skill points gained per level though.

In short, I'd like to see something differentiate Paladin from the other classes. Having less dps than Warriors and less healing than Clerics makes for a class that comes up short of being very useful. Getting the niche of Aegis killer would be just the ticket, and beefing up their group support so that they're worthwhile grouping with when not hunting undead.

Okay, a lot of what SSilmath said here is quite good and a lot of it I would agree with, so I'm going to break down each topic remaining from what I snipped.

I've recently brought back an old character because the idea of playing a Paladin sounded good and also reminded me of one of my old friends who no longer plays who had specialized in Paladin (this goes to you Leonea!) .

To start with though, I'll reference his 'Aegis-Killer' statement first. I absolutely agree with this. After all the years the Gifted have been fighting against the Aegis, surely they'd have discovered ways to specialize in killing them and have developed elite aegis-killer units to deploy into deadlands and the like.

Second, while I can agree with amping up a Paladin's healing potential, I can't 100% agree with giving them a lot of access to too many heals. They are, afterall, primarily a 'Warrior' class, so we can't give them TOO much power over healing. I would, however, agree with giving them access to at least two more heals, Minor Health (its a weak heal, honestly), and Group Health.

As a defender of the light and of their friends, they'd excel at 'first aid' type heals, meaning weak heals. Revitalize, Improved Revitalize, Minor Health, and Group Health, plus their Healing Touch and ability to ressurect would be quite sufficient for them.

If Minor Health is considered TOO many heals, then adding Group Health only wouldn't be a bad idea either. I also feel that 8 life skill per level and 7 Augmentation skill per level is too weak. They are a 'team player' they should be better at supporting as a warrior instead of a main/heavy damage dealer... unless it was against the Aegis. Perhaps raising Life skill to 9 per level and augmentation to 9 per level would be better, or if that's too high, 8 at least.

Thirdly, I do like the idea of a 'life attack' in the style of flame, energy, and ice attack, the game itself says that a Paladin 'channels the power of life to protect their friends and destroy their enemies'. I also feel that they should be able to use crushing weapons as well, the warrior trainer on New Trismus said that undead are weak to crushing damage.

Since a Paladin should be an anti-Aegis elite... it only makes sense that they be able to use crushing weapons to destroy the Aegis. Instead of just one paw slash and two paw slash, I could see adding one paw crush and two paw crush to their class at the rate of 10 per level. As I've not particularly seen any Aegis weak to one paw pierce... it wouldn't be necessary to add that skill to the class.

Fourth, I also like the idea of giving them access to detoxify other and group detoxify, not necessarily detoxify self, because they do have access to purify (although that is a horribly weak spell to start with, but nevertheless, they CAN use it). After all, their primary mission is to destroy Aegis and protect their friends. Although I don't feel an aura that protects against buff stripping and debuffing is necessary; that just might get to be a little too powerful.

Finally, I'd suggest looking at the Auras a Paladin uses... In particular, let's examine Stand Against Darkness and Aura of Light. I feel these two are 'mixed up', truth be told. If you recall, the Healer's 'Illustrious Stand' protects from the Aegis, making it harder to hit the party.

Aura of Light reduces the damage the party takes from the undead, which is good, but that, to me... feels like it is stepping on the toes of the Healer's Illustrious Stand. A Healer DEFENDS against the undead and a Paladin DESTROYS the undead.

In this case, I'd suggest swapping Stand Against Darkness into a group buff, because its an aura meant to destroy undead and switch Aura of Light into a self-only buff, since it would likely conflict with Illustrious Stand anyhow (I haven't tested this yet, but I think it would be likely, if I know the system as well as I think I do xD), which wouldn't conflict with Illustrious Stand... or making it so that it doesn't... however that would work.

As SSilmath said, Stand Against Darkness should be available EARLY on in a Paladin's career as their unique, defining ability. It should then scale up as they get stronger, much like how the Sorceror's Mind Defense powers up as they grow as well as their 'Awareness' ability.

To sum it up, Paladin should be refined to be a bane to the Aegis, channeling Life energy and magic to counter the evil and destructive Blight, but they should be able to support their friends pretty well too.


Thank you for your time, consideration, and insight.

[Calyndrell]

Okay, a lot of what SSilmath said here is quite good and a lot of it I would agree with, so I'm going to break down each topic remaining from what I snipped.

I've recently brought back an old character because the idea of playing a Paladin sounded good and also reminded me of one of my old friends who no longer plays who had specialized in Paladin (this goes to you Leonea!) .

To start with though, I'll reference his 'Aegis-Killer' statement first. I absolutely agree with this. After all the years the Gifted have been fighting against the Aegis, surely they'd have discovered ways to specialize in killing them and have developed elite aegis-killer units to deploy into deadlands and the like.

Second, while I can agree with amping up a Paladin's healing potential, I can't 100% agree with giving them a lot of access to too many heals. They are, afterall, primarily a 'Warrior' class, so we can't give them TOO much power over healing. I would, however, agree with giving them access to at least two more heals, Minor Health (its a weak heal, honestly), and Group Health.

As a defender of the light and of their friends, they'd excel at 'first aid' type heals, meaning weak heals. Revitalize, Improved Revitalize, Minor Health, and Group Health, plus their Healing Touch and ability to ressurect would be quite sufficient for them.

If Minor Health is considered TOO many heals, then adding Group Health only wouldn't be a bad idea either. I also feel that 8 life skill per level and 7 Augmentation skill per level is too weak. They are a 'team player' they should be better at supporting as a warrior instead of a main/heavy damage dealer... unless it was against the Aegis. Perhaps raising Life skill to 9 per level and augmentation to 9 per level would be better, or if that's too high, 8 at least.

Thirdly, I do like the idea of a 'life attack' in the style of flame, energy, and ice attack, the game itself says that a Paladin 'channels the power of life to protect their friends and destroy their enemies'. I also feel that they should be able to use crushing weapons as well, the warrior trainer on New Trismus said that undead are weak to crushing damage.

Since a Paladin should be an anti-Aegis elite... it only makes sense that they be able to use crushing weapons to destroy the Aegis. Instead of just one paw slash and two paw slash, I could see adding one paw crush and two paw crush to their class at the rate of 10 per level. As I've not particularly seen any Aegis weak to one paw pierce... it wouldn't be necessary to add that skill to the class.

Fourth, I also like the idea of giving them access to detoxify other and group detoxify, not necessarily detoxify self, because they do have access to purify (although that is a horribly weak spell to start with, but nevertheless, they CAN use it). After all, their primary mission is to destroy Aegis and protect their friends. Although I don't feel an aura that protects against buff stripping and debuffing is necessary; that just might get to be a little too powerful.

Finally, I'd suggest looking at the Auras a Paladin uses... In particular, let's examine Stand Against Darkness and Aura of Light. I feel these two are 'mixed up', truth be told. If you recall, the Healer's 'Illustrious Stand' protects from the Aegis, making it harder to hit the party.

Aura of Light reduces the damage the party takes from the undead, which is good, but that, to me... feels like it is stepping on the toes of the Healer's Illustrious Stand. A Healer DEFENDS against the undead and a Paladin DESTROYS the undead.

In this case, I'd suggest swapping Stand Against Darkness into a group buff, because its an aura meant to destroy undead and switch Aura of Light into a self-only buff, since it would likely conflict with Illustrious Stand anyhow (I haven't tested this yet, but I think it would be likely, if I know the system as well as I think I do xD), which wouldn't conflict with Illustrious Stand... or making it so that it doesn't... however that would work.

As SSilmath said, Stand Against Darkness should be available EARLY on in a Paladin's career as their unique, defining ability. It should then scale up as they get stronger, much like how the Sorceror's Mind Defense powers up as they grow as well as their 'Awareness' ability.

To sum it up, Paladin should be refined to be a bane to the Aegis, channeling Life energy and magic to counter the evil and destructive Blight, but they should be able to support their friends pretty well too.


Thank you for your time, consideration, and insight.

Firstly Paladins aren't supposed to necro rez which is exactly what you have done to this thread.

Secondly as one of Orders only Paladin main players i have this to say.

TL:DR NO.

Reference Aegis killers.. WE ARE we don't really need a boost in this though if they wanna give me more abilities yes please.

Reference Heals.. Laying on hands is a prime example of a typical paladin heal ability. we don't really need any more than that (again if you wanna give me more then yes please)

Reference Crushing.. you give us crushing then really your just making the paladin very similar to guardians.. Although i would love an option to use a demon maul. And I don't see how smashing aegis is any different to turning them into a kebob.

Reference Detox.. get druid and healer problem solved..

Reference Auras.. SaD isn't really an Aura and as powerful as it is SHOULDN'T be a group buff.. although aura of light could possibly do with a revamp.

Also i agree that SaD should scale from an earlier level..

As for you last statement..

They can heal pretty well, they have the ability to buff with enhances and can res.... what more do you want to assist allies?

To sum up Most of your desires get solved with multiclassing.. which is exactly why we multiclass.. it sounds like you want a one stop shop... and its not gonna happen.

Oooh and DPS vs aegis... once we are at level 100 not many can keep up with us.

[Calyndrell]

Second, while I can agree with amping up a Paladin's healing potential,
. I also feel that 8 life skill per level and 7 Augmentation skill per level is too weak. Perhaps raising Life skill to 9 per level and augmentation to 9 per level would be better, or if that's too high, 8 at least.

Thirdly, I do like the idea of a 'life attack' in the style of flame, energy, and ice attack, the game itself says that a Paladin 'channels the power of life to protect their friends and destroy their enemies'. I also feel that they should be able to use crushing weapons as well, the warrior trainer on New Trismus said that undead are weak to crushing damage.
it only makes sense that they be able to use crushing weapons to destroy the Aegis. Instead of just one paw slash and two paw slash, I could see adding one paw crush and two paw crush to their class at the rate of 10 per level.

Fourth, I also like the idea of giving them access to detoxify other and group detoxify, not necessarily detoxify self, because they do have access to purify (although that is a horribly weak spell to start with, but nevertheless, they CAN use it). After all, their primary mission is to destroy Aegis and protect their friends. Although I don't feel an aura that protects against buff stripping and debuffing is necessary; that just might get to be a little too powerful

What you want is a cleric!?

[Guaran]

Paladin has already been tweaked.

Stand Against Darkness does come at an earlier level now. Stand Against Darkness III is the old level 96 Stand Against Darkness. Stand Against Darkness I is given at level 36.

[Calyndrell]

Paladin has already been tweaked.

Stand Against Darkness does come at an earlier level now. Stand Against Darkness III is the old level 96 Stand Against Darkness. Stand Against Darkness I is given at level 36.

Good point I forgot about that.