What is IC vs OOC?

[awdz]

Please note that this is intended as a discussion directly relating to Order shard, not Chaos or Blight. Please also note that the developers have the final say in what is acceptable, not me. I am just a player who likes the world immersion of the roleplaying shard and the views in this post are just mine, nothing official.

Folks have very varying definitions of what IC may be. I got into a bit of a heated discussion about IC vs OOC and what was expected in Marketplace on the roleplaying shard. I think it was because we were using different definitions of what IC meant.

Here's a sort of sliding scale I put together:
0 – RL, offline (out-of-game) discussion
1 – Online, in game discussion of RL events/people
2 – Comparison of various MMORPGs
3 – Discussion of RL game data such as number of players on each server, percentage of roleplayers
4 – Highly technical game mechanics, such as explanation of how to most quickly level (using game statistics including optimal skill and experience points awarded) or explanation of how to color text in chats
5 – Discussion of general game mechanics such as keyboard commands, how to join a chat, need for upgrading equipment, how to use techniques.
6 – Recommendation of which techs to put on gear/equipment; description of battle/crafting situation using mechanics terminology (e.g., use of /random for loot awards)
7 – Assessment of construction work progress from looking at structure info; map coordinates
8 – Bartering and working out logistics for goods/services or group hunts
9 – Chat roleplay with all descriptions of events as though the characters were living it
10 – Face-to-face character roleplay with emotes demonstrating character actions

I have a loose definition of IC, mostly a "keep it in Istaria" attitude. When I say Marketplace chat on Order is supposed to be IC, I'm talking at least 4 on that scale.

From the discussion I had, I gather that others who use the term IC assume it to be at least 7 on that scale. That is not my typical use of it. I do expect public game chats to be places where folks can ask for and receive general game help.

Please note that I and many others on Order do not take kindly to folks talking about non-Istarian life in the public chats on the roleplaying shard. When I notice it, I will ask folks to keep things "in Istaria" in the public chats. If I use the term IC, my intent is the definition of IC as 4-10 on the scale above.

If you feel that you can only get your point across to the other person by using an out-of-Istaria reference, it is much more polite to use /tell to share the information with them than to bring RL references into the public chat. It also helps new folks to understand what is most commonly accepted by all.

My apologies to those upset by any misunderstanding. If you think my scale or approach to the public chats on Order is wrong, I'd be interested to learn why.

[LOVWYRM]

dear Awdz,
thank you for the labour you put into this
Its very helpful in my eyes.

I once was one of those, you politely asked to use a private chat, when we had a RL discussion (0 on your scale here).
I understood you then- I understand you today.

But I`m still kinda ambivalent:
On one side, I am happy if players talk together at all, instead of crafting/fighting in deep silence, and there is nothing in market besides some brave souls who dare to say hello or goodbye.
We have lots of new/returning players atm- and for me-everything that makes them feel part of the community, makes them feel as equal partners of the vet players (hey- remember how it feels to be a lvl 1 noob in a society of vets?)is highly appreciated for me.
Be it, that they listen (even if its other than you described in your list,point 4-10) or even join the discussion (about the weather, who`s hubby is sick, who has do housekeeping before the hunt).
Our Community became that close because we DID talk about private/rl things. New/returning players often have not found into the numerous chat channels- where we talk IC and OCC without any restrictions.

On the other hand, I do not want see discussions like you described in point 1 and 2- or any other blabla in market.

I have no idea where to draw a line.

So here is my vote: I sign Awdz`s definition of IC.
But pls do not prevent those conversations, that may work as warming up amongst old/new players, or talking about things of public benefit.

Edit: Pls consider that many players are no native speakers- I heard them say, it takes some braveness to raise your voice in market at all :-)

[Raptress]

Being "in-character" means exactly that to me.. my character is not meant to be aware of things like the UI or the fact that they level up after they kill enough enemies or make enough spells, so when I talk about those things, I am out-of-character.

It doesn't have to mean that I must write huge, flowery descriptions; all it means is that I have stepped into the skin of my character, and I am speaking and acting as if I am that character.

It's always kind of confused me that some people consider talking about the UI, etc., to be in-character. Imagine if you met someone in RL who thought that there was some interface that only they could see and that they were on a "quest" to go to Starbucks and buy five coffees, but they "think the counter is bugged." You'd think they were crazy, wouldn't you?

If your character talked about such things to my character, my character would think yours is crazy by the same measure.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I second what has been said here. I consider, myself, the IC thing as a part of roleplay, and not only being related to Istaria, but also as if the characters were in a book, controlled by several authors. They'd see their world as real, and not be aware of things like level, UI, skill number,...

I also support the discussions and talk, though a private and specific talk between a few can be taken into a private channel. A small community like Istaria's one needs, I think, to interact, be friendly, welcoming with its members,... and maintain/create good relationships.

[Akrion]

I will continue the notion of IC being viewed specifically as being In-character, just as the abbreviation stands for. When I'm in-character, I'm putting myself in Akrion's place as I would be in the real world. Leveling does not exist, experience points don't exist (Not to be confused with 'experience'), names aren't floating over peoples heads (meaning In-Character you must ask for someones name before you could know it). As far as my character is concerned, 'Istaria' is a world, not a game. There exists no mechanics, only physics, rules of nature. ICly Akrion doesn't hit a zombie with Blood Bolt IV for 450 points of damage, he rips a stream of blood from his arm and pierces his foe with it, the damage which it causes being determined by RP with others.

Realism aside, the biggest problem I see with taking gameplay as being truly IC then a small group of super-peds would be able to singlehandedly solve Istaria's problem with the Aegis in no time at all. Mechanically, a maxed out biped would easily be on par and often times well beyond the strength of many of Istaria's notable characters such as Elial, Akhanis, SoG, etc. Akrion, with his simple 119 rating, would be able to ICly 1 shot any Ancient he encounters, with ease, if he so desired if mechanics were taken to be in-character. This is another reason why I view anything related to mechanics or UI or other such game elements as entirely OOC.

[Frith-Rae]

I too differentiate between levels of "OOC" and IC.

IC is IN Character - not just "in game or game relevant" but IN Character. In 99% of the games out there, it would be extremely difficult (if not next to impossible) to say discuss things like game stats/mechanics/UI/leveling/points etc. and stay IC. Difficulty being tryingn to reword say "10 points in strength means you get 100 health and 50 dodge" just ends up being a verbose and confusing exchange when the person you are talking to isnt quite getting what you are trying to say .

In your level system - anything below level 9 is OOC dicussion of various levels. IC is level 9 and level 10 and thats it. Some of the lower levels you COULD do strictly IC - but in general, for efficiency sake, you do it OOC.

But IC is just that IN CHARACTER. And your character knows nothing of Uis or that the "L" key brings up your quest window or minimap coordinates or stats of a piece of armor.

Which has always been a problemfor me when people try to argue that all the public chats on Order are meant to be IC. I disagree. Wholeheartedly. If they remain IC then you cant answer 80% of the questions posed in any clear way.

Now - there are LEVELS to OOC! (Not IC, but OOC). You can keep a discussion game-relevant and OOC and to me that is totally acceptable. Its not at all IC, but it is game-relevant OOC. And that to me is your "level 3/4" and such up to level 8 (level 9 and 10 are IC and the only ones up there that are IC).

So while it IS OOC, it is not "random nothing to do with game" ooc - that is your talk about stuff outside of games, other MMORPGs, whats going on IRL, etc.

And this is where people pitch fits and get into fights - which to me is unnecessary and not so big of a deal that people quit and leave chat over - but people do.

There IS NO Official stance from our dev team (outside of Orders EULA/Login instructions which I believe say to keep to game relevant OOC and not discuss out of game things in /say and such...). To me, due to the variety of channels created as "default" in the game you CANNOT say that they are all meant to be A and not B. You cannot say that the game-created roleplay channel and the "New Player" channel are both meant to follow the exact same rules that are dictated by the existance of the "bot" that created teh rooms. Dragon, Marketplace, Roleplay, and New Player are all created by the bot - but dont have all the same "expectation of ruleset".

New Player is meant to give help and advice - this has no IC requirement nor would it be realy encouraged as this would only confuse any new players asking a straight question. That is not to say that your level 1 and 2 OOC comments are welcome either - but you would not call such discussions as "how training points work" an IC discussion.

Dragon Chat is IC/RP friendly, but not required (IMO its original purpose and it will remain so as long as I am in the room LOL). Its purpose is to help dragons with dragon issues and dragon questions. Again, not an IC requirement to be able to do this.

I would imagine same with Marketplace.

Maybe awdz that is where the confusion/argument is coming from - that the levels you are referring to are actually OOC levels of conversation. IC is purely that, level 9 and 10, if you want to seperate that out (to me there is no difference, IC is IC). But for the vast majority of the populace familiar with this type of stuff - all of what you discuss up there, below 9 and 10 is in NO WAY IC. Its all levels of OOC.

To a bigger point - honestly - in a game as low populatin as this - unless someones discussion is offending/angering/upsetting anyone in the public chat - why are we telling people to not talk??

Ive talked about totally unrelated to game stuff in chat because OTHERWISE IT IS DEAD! I would rather blab about the weather outside or the tv show I watched or discuss game mechanics of other games or whatever than sit there and see absolutely nothing go across my chat screen for hours on end.

Now Ive talked about totaly game related OOC stuff, and I RP constantly when I am in game too. Sometimes even all three in the same public channel at the same time! (Yes apparently I am awesome that way lol).

But unless the subject is touchy (i.e. politics, various sport teams, etc.) if noone is being upset by the public discussion why are you insisting they take it private? If its not in /say (the only true public channel as I dotn think you can leave it...) then is it really bothering anyone more than just noone talking at all?

Because in those cases to me - please - someone give me SOMETHING to talk about!! Give me something to read! Dont make me spend 5 hours of game alt-tabbed because people feelthey cant just TALK without getting asked to talk.

The population is low enough as it is, so many people refuse to talk anymore - why do we need to police channels if noone is harmed by random OOC discussion? Why do we need to argue about what "level" of talk you are or are not allowed to talk about in Marketplace when the alternative is *crickets* for hours?

(again, anger/upset/harrassment/insults/offensive stuff is not permissible ever)

[awdz]

Levels of OOC or levels of IC; to me it's like calling gray shades of black or shades of white. Obviously I cannot use the term "IC" because we define it differently.

I really don't care what it's called. I just want the roleplay shard to be where I can be immersed in the game and not have folks in the public chats mentioning RL crap (and that includes other games that I don't care for) that I play Istaria to get away from. So yes, my gameplay is harmed by folks bringing up such things publicly - and I have been told by numerous other players that they feel similarly. If we wanted RL references we'd be playing on Chaos.

You want entertaining chats? My mother always said that if you want mail, you have to send it. Perhaps the secret to having interesting chats is to start them. It has worked for me on numerous occasions.

My request is just that everyone keep mention of the real world (anything not Istaria) in private. If someone asks a question in Marketplace that begs for a real life reference, please send a tell to them instead of encouraging more RL mentions in the public chats. Thank you.

[Sigvard]

I, too, tend to view IC as actually being the character itself within Istaria! My characters wouldn't know about channels, questing, levels, locations of mobs they've never encountered and various other in-game interface elements. They also wouldn't be able to answer any questions about them. Many of my dragons have outrageous accents that'd likely confuse unfortunate new players a little too much if I tried to assist them!

Tend to be completely OOC in Marketplace and Dragon (unless others are roleplaying!) in an attempt to provide folk with coherent (and hopefully helpful) answers. After all, "Ieo's seen 'zem in 'za swamp, a'na!" is tricker to understand than "They're in the Spiritual Swamp, eastern side".

I honestly don't mind whether RL references are flung around. It's always nice to have something to read whilst questing and grinding in silence! I also enjoy learning about the player behind the character and, if someone's had a bad day and needs to talk about it, I'm more than happy to let them get their words off their chest... Even they want to do so inside a public channel. While it's my own opinion, I find conversation good- whether it's about the game or real life!

Though, knowing that RL-references upsets people to such an extent, I'll try to avoid doing so in MarketPlace. Don't want to rub folk up the wrong way! Apologies if I've made any previously.

I just desperately hope no one's berating new players for RL references- it's my main cause for concern.

[Akrion]

I personally don't have a problem with such discussions in Marketplace, especially when they're aimed at helping a player, which in this case was a new player. And the fact of the matter, Awdz, is that you came into the conversation and not the other way around. The conversation was already going between multiple people to help this new player out when you decided to tell them to stop / move it out of Marketplace. It's not like it came out of nowhere and butted into the middle of a conversation of your own, you were silent until the discussion started, infact you were silent until the discussion specifically mentioned other games (Which in this case were being used as a frame of reference to compare Istaria to).

This may sound blunt but perhaps if it's you who's coming in on a conversation, especially when the intent is helping a new player, then you should be the one to leave if it's breaking your immersion so terribly and not the ones already having the discussion. I can't dictate that you must leave if there's a conversation happening that you don't like, but likewise neither can you. Ultimately, in the end, the person who has the largest impact on their immersion within a game is themselves (I don't understand how talking about Istaria's UI doesn't break immersion but, eh..).

[LOVWYRM]

So this is getting difficult and confusing to me.

As usual, as I always do, I`m gonna tell my "not reading forum" friends, what is said here. What shall I tell them?
By no means I want to annoy LadyGnome, she knows what and why she is talking about.
So I shall leave market place?
Like I did once before. Some of my friemds already did. Some of them will do then.
Most of "Us" are only in market to help others, or meet new players.

I know this is a role- play shard. I accepted and still do accept if there are other rules than on Chaos.

We came from Unity-maybe we still are guests.
We were told that we never shall be forced to rp.
Making market place rp only-well- its not the end of the world-but..well..sad.
Maybe I got something wrong here

I agree with what Frith said.
Talking together, playing together is the most important thing on a low populated shard.
Maybe we can agree on something that is BEST FOR OUR SHARD ?

Furthermore-if people want to rp they can do that all over the shard- in all chats- noone will tell them not to do so. Or exclude/bann them from the chat channel..

[LungTien Temeraire]

I see what you mean, Awdz, discussing about Istaria game topics like your gnome character would if she could. I respect your opinion, of course, but mine remains like I said. I'd rather not see RL and out of Istaria topics discussions in roleplay channels, rather on Dragon, Happy Hunt,... but I prefer seeing that in a channel rather than complete silence.

I tend to stay silent if a player, or several, are talking about a RL or out of Istaria topic I'd have nothing to say about, rather than tell them to stop or move it in private channel... unless it starts annoying many people.

[Raptress]

I tend to stay silent if a player, or several, are talking about a RL or out of Istaria topic I'd have nothing to say about, rather than tell them to stop or move it in private channel... unless it starts annoying many people.

That's my usual policy as well. If the discussion's current topic is something I would rather not talk about, I simply do not speak. On rare occasions, a topic will come up in chat that I would also rather not see because it bothers me for whatever reason. In those cases, if I seem to be the only one bothered, I'll just leave the channel for a while.

The only time I'd ask people to take their chat elsewhere would be if it was something inappropriate for public eyes that I was sure the majority of the channel probably didn't want to see, such as two people having a personal argument, or a couple RPing.. *ahem* very inappropriate things.

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

As a barely 45-day old hatchie, I find this discussion highly interesting.

When I come into the game, I assume the character of Morinare, as best I can; I "play" him as a young, impetuous, yet (for the most part) respectful hatchling. He will banter with adults and ancients, but, the moment he senses a bit of aggravation, he'll usually retreat with a contrite *meep*.

Awdz, you gave me (whether you remember it or not) one of my favorite experiences in the New Player channel, where we "discussed" hatchlings playing volleyball with gnomes...I thoroughly enjoyed that frivolous little bit of role-play silliness.

To the point of IC vs. OOC, I had this driven home to me in a very polite yet firm way a few days ago in New Trismus. A blue Ancient was resting near the shrine when I plopped down on the roof of one of the buildings. I bowed, the Ancient (my pardon, Elder, but, I cannot recall your name!) nodded. We began a conversation, and I mentioned something about leveling to Craft 35, or some such. The response was something along the lines of, "What *are* you babbling about, youngling?" which immediately pulled me back IC...it was so adroitly done, but reminded me that Order *is* about role-play.

Usually, I'm only in two "public" channels: New Player and Dragon. In both, I'll try to stay IC as much as possible...but, it's often exceedingly difficult to either ask or answer a question while remaining IC.

OOC discussions or chatter in either of those channels doesn't "bother" me...I read everything that pops up, just because I *am* still new to Istaria, and, one never knows when a little nugget of information will pop up. However, I *do* try, if I join in such discussions, to put brackets around my comment...don't always remember (impetuous hatchie, ya know).

So, like the Helian I am and/or soon will be, I guess I take the diplomatic approach...I prefer to stay IC as much as possible, and prefer to see chat remain that way, when feasible...but, if it shifts to OOC for a while, I can accept that, as well (of course, I retain the right to assert myself as an impetuous and maybe even impertinent hatchie at any moment ).

[Darkwing_Duck]

I agree with luvwurm here. However I do agree keeping IC, and OOC seperate, and not bringing up any personal stuffs in public chats. But being strict is one thing, being police is another. I myself steer clear of marketplace for this very reason. I used to use it for selling/asking to buy items such as techs, scales, claws, spell forms, ect.. but all I ever got was complete silence, or scolding, so I left the chat, and I`ll never come back.

I remember when I was a noob, the community was so nice, and helpful, kind, and understanding. but things have changed, now I, and many others fear to type even hello anymore. I love the Order shard. it is my main home, however After seeing so many litteraly scolded, and chased out instead of gently introduced like I originaly was. I gotta ask. is this really how the Order shard should be run?

[Akrion]

@Lovwyrm:

It's hard to say what to do, really. I already made this point in Marketplace on the day this happened, but Marketplace is consistantly the most populated channel at all times. It's the best place for most questions because it often has the most players and isn't the Role-Play or Dragon channel (Though OOC questions/answers in the RP channel are completely fine so long as they're bracketed, which in this case it seems to be 'no OOC at all'). Personally I would stay in Marketplace and continue to help players, perhaps bracketing your chat if asked (if there are people RPing in Marketplace already) but definitely not moving it. Otherwise I see one form of in-game help breaking down and putting more reliance on the Dragon and Role-Play channels.

[Sereamha]

Wish I was there when this 'incident' happened in the marketplace, but someone kinda got angry at me on RP channel.

The other night I gently informed someone that the person they were RPing to wasn't actually in the channel, but they were 'ghosting' another character. They basically threw their arms in the air and said they were deleting all their Order toons because there were too many rules. O_O

The rules are simple and are there to help things be enjoyable and UNDERSTANDABLE for everyone, people. X_X

[awdz]

*pulls hair in frustration* I've tried to say over and over that answering technical questions in marketplace is "in Istaria" and therefore not what is problematic. I try to be helpful and encouraging to folks, then put out this one request, and get chewed for requesting the roleplay shard try to avoid RL references.

If folks insist on letting RL crap be in public chats, there's no point in having a RP shard. Have fun with that.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I don't chew on you, Awdz, I understand what you mean, about staying in Istaria-game related discussions. But not all of the shard's public channels are IC-only, and unless it bothers many people, out of Istaria topic discussions aren't forbidden in OoC-allowed channels.
*winghugs the gnome gently

[awdz]

I did not mean you, LungTien Temeraire, nor really the responses here - I was referring to the spat in game when I spoke of getting chewed. It's just a really hot button topic for me since Istaria is a distraction from RL for me. References to RL are as welcome as profanity to me in Istarian public chats.

According to https://horizons.istaria.com/horizon...olePlaying.pdf,

• Modern-day happenings will not be discussed on public channels. This restriction
includes, but is not limited to: sports events, current news, movies, computers, games,
and music. Discussion of said events on private channels such as /tell, /guildchat, and
/group is permissible as long as all parties agree to allow it. Such private channel
communications will not be monitored by Artifact and it is left to the players to monitor
their own communications.
• Internet shorthand, abbreviations, and “l33tspeak” are not allowed on the server. Should
you discover someone using this form of communication, please ask him or her to
refrain from doing so in the future. If the player continues to do so, please report them to
a Istaria Customer Service Representative through the appropriate channels.
• Asking for help: Players are encouraged to try to roleplay when looking for help, be it to
form a group, ask advice or ask about game mechanics, in public chat channels. We
recognize, however, that this is not always possible and sometimes a player must step
"out of character" in order to ask, and answer, questions. It is reasonable to expect that
lengthy conversations regarding game mechanics and game play will be moved out of
public channels and a private channel created instead.

Much of what goes on in the role-playing shards depends on players “self-policing” and
monitoring their own and others’ behavior. If someone violates the Communication Policy,
please courteously ask the offender to stop before alerting a member of the Virtrium support

staff.

[LungTien Temeraire]

These rules are old and not all of them are really known or respected in the current time... These old rules are far stricter than the current ones.