What is IC vs OOC?

[awdz]

Awdz I do get what you are saying here. You are saing that in theh OOC discussion you (and most of us do..) draw a line between being ok with ooc-mechanic-discussions and ooc-football discussions. You would like to see that line drawn more clearly in MP (anyway), and for everyone to try and NOT have ooc-rl-talk on the shard - and for everyoen to enforce that.

Thank you. All I heard Akrion & Raptress going on about is that there was no middle ground - IC for the majority does not include game mechanics and therefore they would not even entertain the idea.

Not even looking at your whole scale and you wanting to redefine something that is 9/10 IC as IC and not OOC.

I put out the scale to understand where folks might draw the line. Akrion & Raptress insisted IC had to be 9/10 on the scale and nothing less. I agreed to go along with their definition and try to call the middle ground something else. THEY refused.

We are seeing what you mean. Many of us agree with you (to a point, I will explain below). But then asking us to tell others to leave/stop talking - for some of us that crosses a line *WE* dont feel anymore comfortable with than *YOU* do for listening to someone talk about WoW.

This I can get. Getting me chewed out on semantics did not get this across to me before.

But this isnt an ideal world. Its not an ideal situation. And wheras apparently you woulud prefer to sit in "silence" so to speak with noone talking in the channel rather than watch someone talk about the latest episode of FRINGE (random example!) - I think *many*of those respondingto you here are saying that no - in fact - they would rather read talk about Fringe than sit in silence in a chat room.

Is it really so hard to think of something in Istaria to discuss when bored? I am truly puzzled by that. If I get bored, I think of something IC to do and play it out in the chat. Some of the most amusing roleplays I've been involved with have come from that. I just think with a little effort & care Marketplace could be more of the ideal.

But the fact is - if you dont like something in front of you - you have the option of leaving the chat. Dont pretend to be a high-and-mighty-rule-rightenous-enforcer.

Guess I misunderstood the part about "player-enforced" in my attempt to request folks at least try to keep things they knew bothered someone to a private chat. Because honestly, "It's a lack of desire to have to constantly watch what I say" definitely came across to me as laziness. Maybe I'm just too clumsy in my attempt or just a b***. Either way, I really did not expect to cause such offense by actually speaking up in Marketplace. I apologize for disrupting folks there.

You talk of compromise - when all I see is you only wanting people to stick to your rules and your standards (as defined by your chart, and what bothers you) and even if their rules allow for it - too bad - somehow that isnt compromise to you.

Actually, it got to the point where I just wanted Akrion and Raptress to stop hammering me with you're-wrong-and-out-of-line enough to acknowledge that there really is more than one valid viewpoint. I doubt that will ever really happen. "If you want to invent a term for it, go ahead. But it'll still be OOC to me no matter what you call it" and its like said to me that there was no willingness to even try.

Most of the feedback here seems to be in the "hey if nothing else is going on what does it hurt to talk about school or football - even if yes, we agree, its not IC or game-related-OOC but its talking". And many people are even saying ok, lets use brackets in MP to help differentiate.

I appreciate the willingness to use brackets. You tell me I should leave Marketplace when I'm the only one who speaks up about not liking RL references out of consideration for those who do; I think it appropriate for others who do use RL references to show some level of consideration for other players who hate it.

Butno - Its not a discussion - you didnt want anyone's alternate opinion or insight into the issue. You *come across now* as wanting us to read yours and agree that in MP we are all to abide by your definitions (even going so far as to say they are minority defintion we need to be using)...and that is not how a discussion works. That is how a rant works.

My apologies. My frustration with Akrion and Raptress drove me to push back at them in a way I did not intend to carry over to everyone. The absolute refusal to allow for legitimacy of any middle ground ticked me off.

[Raptress]

I responded the way I did because, as the thread went on, it seemed to me more and more that you were trying to control the channel and that you weren't really willing to compromise on anything while you expected everyone else to compromise. I was frustrated that you seemed to be asking everyone to change just for you, while making no comparable changes yourself. All I saw was "I don't want to see RL-talk in MP. Obey." Maybe that isn't what you meant, but that's the way it came off to me. My tone grew more aggressive as a result, which led to yours growing more aggressive, etc., etc.

Frith has said much of what I wanted to say while managing not to get emotionally dragged in, so thank you, Frith, and I apologize for my conduct in this thread.

[Frith-Rae]

I appreciate those willing to take a step back and realize that negativity just breeds negativity - snarky remarks result in more snarky remarks - and people stop listening at that point (or really reading..lol).

I am also glad I was able to sumup in my last post - I see both sides having valid and reasonable points I just didnt want that getting lost in the snarky . I do it for a living so I am glad it translated in my long-winded-way lol.

Since I know I am already long-winded I decided against discusing various things point by point as that will make just a giant wall of text .

I will just say that for many people, I think, they follow along with what is being exhibited in the channel. I often see the parenthesis being used in some rooms variably - not because they arent OOC or IC rooms - but because whomever is doing the talking first setsup the "trend" so to speak.

So if you want people to use more (oooc talk here), then make that an example in your responses to them - even if they don't. (You being a general You - not you Awdz or Raptress or Akrion or anyone specific). People will generally pick it up and start using it just because you are and they assume its the "norm".

However, if someone is talking ooc without () and noone is using the () at any point in the conversation - it cant really be fair to expect them to just suddenly start using () in the middle. This is doubley-so truei if there is no IC/RP going on as many people default into "what is the point - there is no RPing going on anyway" and don't bother (cuz yes it is two extra key strokes but some people take awhile to type so the extra keystrokes are bothersome for them). I would never take that to mean the person is anti-RP or anti-IC or even would be advserse to using () when the situation called for it - its just not their "default - I go aroundthe server always () everything I say unless I am RPing".

Because that is not really a general standard either (to walk around and post on the entire server always in () if they arent RPing...).

You catch more flies with honey and all that - leading by example, rather than correction, will be more positively received and more likely to engender change without that hostile feeling people will get immediately upon being corrected (in public or in private, across situations really).

Now Awdz I did wnat to respond specfically to this point you made re: "Is it so hard to come up with somethign to discuss relevant to Istaria - or to RP when things are dead?"

Actually yea, sometimes, it is lol. Trust me, Ive spent many a night RPing by myself in a channel and getting *crickets* in response. You get tired of doing that because there is only so many sandcleaning and tooth picking I can RP out myself . Ive done it to generate action - and occasionally it works - but most of the time (even in the RP designated channel ,much less MP and Dragon and other channels where RP is tolerated but perhaps not the norm) it does not work.

Heck Ive even had puppet-shows with my own talons in the hopes of getting SOME type of response in a dead channel.

So no, at the end of the day - people get worn out making that effort. Esp. if they do it repeatedy and get little to no reception on it.

At that point - yea - I get tired of being the one to try and start an RP or even an Istaria-relevant-conversation (honestly for me Ive had them all and they usually end in complaining or its not much of a 4 minute discussion before there are crickets again lol).

Hence you get the "I will take any type of conversation over nothing, long as it isnt too sensitive a subject like politics or religion..." Because perhaps you get better mileage in what you come up with, or perhaps your expectations are different.

But I know for me, andn so perhaps others - Id rather have a busy chatroom talking about the lint in my belly button for 3 hours than a dead chatroom with nothing more than the occasional "hey everyone!". Seriously. LINT!! is more interesting than that. Logging out of Istaria after a 2-3 hour session where noone talked is just more disheartening and discouraging and negatively reinforcing.

But since we are talking specifically about MP - honestly I wonder why I even bother opening the chatroom (I guess cuz it looks to be popular...looks are decieving). So rarely is there ever any type of conversation in there at all...AT ALL..other than an occasional crafting request or direction or something.

Perhaps people are feeling its so unfriendly to general chat that noone seems willing to talk..period. And that is a bad vibe to be sending o ut I think. As opposed to Dragon where there seems to be more often spontaneous chatter (these days anyway lol).

[Akrion]

Actually, it got to the point where I just wanted Akrion and Raptress to stop hammering me with you're-wrong-and-out-of-line enough to acknowledge that there really is more than one valid viewpoint. I doubt that will ever really happen. "If you want to invent a term for it, go ahead. But it'll still be OOC to me no matter what you call it" and its like said to me that there was no willingness to even try.

And likewise you've shown no willingness to even try accepting our viewpoints, your posts suggest wanting us to compromise towards your viewpoint with little willingness to do so the other way around. So why do Raptress and I seem to be the only bad people here? And how did I fail to aknowledge your viewpoint as being valid? Does "If you were in the middle of interacting with other people before said discussion started up, I would have been much more understanding of you requesting it to be moved elsewhere since it would be getting in the way of your RP" mean nothing?

Also, having viewpoints and enforcing viewpoints are different things. My viewpoint is that Marketplace should be 100% IC or 100% OOC, but that doesn't mean I dictate to people what they should and shouldn't talk about in the channel.

To me this whole thing isn't even about valid or invalid viewpoints or who has what viewpoints, it's that you decided to enforce some arbitrary rule that wound up at the expense of a new player and a couple players helping said new player. You gave off the impression that you didn't care about take in consideration the people that were talking or that a new player was asking questions and only cared about your own personal immersion in the game. I'm not trying to say that is or is not what you were trying to do, just that's the impression you gave off and the entire reason why I spoke up to begin with.

At no point did I say that your viewpoint was invalid, nor did I ever say that my viewpoint was more valid. The closest thing I said to this was that the majority of roleplayers won't share your viewpoint on IC/OOC. And at no point has this ever even been about me, I wasn't even one of the people talking that you asked to leave.

I'm not even sure why I've cared enough to take this issue this far in the first place as I'm seldom in Marketplace. Numerous people seem to have opted to leave the channel anyway so .. *shrugs* .. Whatever. In the end this has little effect on me.

[Xepher]

This thread has received numerous posts and truthfully, I haven't read through all of them. However, I feel the need to add my 2 cents here. As someone who's been roleplaying for a very long time, in most of the common RP atmospheres (Forum, game, etc) I can tell you with confidence that the following is the clear-cut, absolute, widely-known definition of these two terms:

IC - In character. You are acting, taking on the role of someone, or something, that is not you, and this entity has no idea what forums, posts, levels, or any of these things are. Just as how the character portrayed by an actor never mentions the camera, crew or set.

OOC - Out of character. You're you now, you can talk freely about anything pertaining to real life and everything involved in it. Preferably with the use of brackets to distinguish this, and make it easier to identify it between posts.

There really is no middle ground, no third term, nothing. Unless I'm mistaken, what is being asked here is if we can keep our OOC chat to strictly game-related subjects, because despite this being the very nature of OOC, it breaks your immersion. I don't understand this logic at all.

Order may be an RP shard but it is also a community, and as such, we should be able to freely talk about what ever we want with the people we spend hours of our day with, appropriateness considered. I WANT to get to know the other players I share Order with on a more personal level. Isn't that what makes this place so comfortable and pleasant to spend time in? I certainly thought so, and will continue to think as such. People like to talk, they like to feel known and involved in the community they frequent, to be themselves. Order provides this.

Awdz, I like you, and I'm sorry if you were scolded without good reason. However, Marketplace IS and likely always WILL be an OOC channel, and whether you agree or not, talk about game mechanics is out of character. If you're adamant about avoiding having someone "break your immersion", the only way to do so would be to isolate yourself from most of the server and its channels. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. The talk of real life matters, other games, so on and so forth, won't stop. You'd be hard-pressed to find a game where people won't talk about such things.

As a last note, I have to say that I find it rather odd that the serious/hardcore RPers don't have any problem with this whatsoever, considering we're the ones often found irritated at those who don't follow proper Roleplay conduct or otherwise interrupt the actual, IN CHARACTER activities and conversations going on... Now THAT is breaking immersion.

[Galdethriel]

Have to say I agree with Raptress, Akrion and those of a similar mind. Xeph said it perfectly too.

Roleplay to me is more a switch that can be flicked on or off at whim, though effective roleplay does take a little time to ease into; I'm either Galdethriel or I'm me, never both at the same time.

I do know how Awdz feels, though. Everyone has their pet peeves; for me, I don't so much mind people talking about out of game things: it's just banter at the end of the day, and you might just learn something new from it. If there's one thing I've learned playing HZ, it's that tolerance is key. Honestly, I get irritated at loads of things I see happening in RP. Things as simple as names being wrong just get me so annoyed... that person's name is from a character from a different game... that person's name has no capital letter... that person's name is spelt wrong...that person's name has random capitals in it... it does really annoy me. But at the end of the day, it's easy enough to just turn the other cheek and ignore it, and it saves a lot of headbutting matches.

~Galde

[LungTien Temeraire]

If there's one thing I've learned playing HZ, it's that tolerance is key. Honestly, I get irritated at loads of things I see happening in RP. Things as simple as names being wrong just get me so annoyed... that person's name is from a character from a different game... that person's name has no capital letter... that person's name is spelt wrong...that person's name has random capitals in it... it does really annoy me. But at the end of the day, it's easy enough to just turn the other cheek and ignore it, and it saves a lot of headbutting matches.

I have to agree with that. Whatever is ones' name in game, if I don't like it for a reason or another, I won't say anything unless the developpers and the majority of players doesn't approve it. For characters' names, like for other things like RP styles, tolerance is key.