Training Points and the New Player

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

This is probably something that would most easily be handled by the community at large than by the Devs, but, may need input from both. New (and, even not-so-new) players need more and better information about Training Points: what they do; what they affect; and, how they help to shape a character.

I can really only speak to the experiences of a young dragon, as Morinare is the only character I've taken very far in Istaria (I do have a Saris alternate, but, haven't the time to do much with him), but, I wouldn't be surprised if new players in the other races have the same problems. (And, by new, I do mean *new*...not an experienced player starting an alternate) Over the last couple of weeks, I've helped several, less experienced characters with quests and things and have found many questions about how to assign Training Points...and, to be honest, I couldn't really give them any answers. When I've asked, in Dragon and New Player channels, about Training Points, the response has varied between total silence and confusing, differing information.

I know that, during initial training, the Tutorials do give a bit of information about Training Points, but, it's quite vague and gives no real guidance; it's also entirely possible to miss it, unless you click on just the right thing and read through everything presented (which, for better or worse, many do *not*). Other than that, there's nothing...

Again, speaking only as a dragon, when I first began playing Istaria, I poured over this forum, as well as the Wiki site (and, once it became available again, the Crimson Dawn site), looking for anything useful; I'll freely admit to being an information geek, as information is one more weapon Morinare can "use" in the game. I found a lot of inferences that made it sound as if there was a major difference between the combat styles of Lunun and Helian dragons...nothing specific or concrete, mind you, but, enough to make it sound like you could have a successful, YOUNG dragon who was strictly a melee fighter OR strictly a spell-caster.

When I began to build Morinare, I placed the majority of my Training Points in areas that, from what I could glean from various sources, aided in spell-casting; i.e., Primal, Power and Focus. Every so often, just to be different, I'd toss some into other areas, as well, primarily into Strength and Dragon Breath. And, since several of these only take 3-points, I'd stuff 1 point into Health.

I was building, I thought, a very good spell-caster. Unfortunately, I quickly discovered that very few critters simply stand there and let you toss range spells at 'em; worse, I discovered that they can close on me MUCH faster than I can retreat and cast another spell at 'em. Rude of them, I thought.

But, there's the truism: all combat devolves into melee, and, all dragons (and, this probably works for the biped races, as well) have to be able to fight close-in, or, they will die.

The information that's available to the newer player really doesn't make this clear. And, yes, most players *will* figure it out for themselves, but, by the time they do, they may well have placed so many points in the "wrong" areas that their only real choice is to scrap the character and start over. This isn't conducive to player happiness.

As an example (and, I won't use any names), I was helping a newer player over the last couple of days. He's put most of his Training Points into the various "defensive" areas for his hatchling: Evasion, Dexterity, Magical Evasion. He assumed, from what he'd read, that this would make it difficult for critters to hit him. Well, of course, he's partially correct...they DO have trouble hitting him, but, at the same time, he can't touch them, either, since he's put virtually no points into any of the "offensive" areas. Monster and dragon end up locked in a macabre dance that the dragon will eventually lose.

I was lucky. Through a combination of the Dragon Cheat Sheet, conversations with much more experienced players, and, my own observations, I was able to "fix" Morinare's stats; others won't be so lucky.

There really needs to be a definitive, easy to access set of "guidelines" regarding Training Points. It should, ideally, be available in the Forum and probably in the FAQ. And, it should be something that the community, at large, fully understands (or, at the very least, is aware of, so they can refer questions to it). These shouldn't be (nor, can they be) a step-by-step "how-to" for creating a character, but, more along the lines of the information in the Dragon Cheat Sheet; i.e., a clear, concise description of what each Statistic and Skill does, and how it affects the character. I'd suggest that this description should be a bit more fleshed out than the Dragon Cheat Sheet, as that really is bare-bones.

Again, this is something that is for the *newer* players; while most of this may well be obvious to those of you who've played Istaria for years, it is much less obvious to those of us who've only recently found this game.

And, I'll happily put my money where my mouth is: if I can get or have provided to me the information I'm talking about, I'll be more than willing to cobble something together and submit it to the community and/or developers for their suggestions and approval.

Thanks to anyone who's read through all this mess, and, I'd welcome any comments or suggestions (preferably polite and physically possible suggestions!).

[Knossos]

Training points once applied are not frozen and there is no reason to start a new character for reason of having selected a training point allocation that is not as good as one would like as more experience is gained in the game and with the character. The "Buy Back" system allows, over time, the reallocation of any or all training points. Only a percentage of training points can be "bought back" at a time, but the buyback points available will regenerate over time to allow further reallocation as needed or desired. Thus, one can experiment with allocation of training points to see how your character is best served for your play style and for other aspects of your character's configuration.

I Hope this helps a bit.

Knossos

[Raptress]

This wasn't really your fault nor the fault of the training points, Morinare. Spellcasting dragons just really aren't very good.

It's doable to level as one, and I daresay I personally had a lot of fun with it, but you're definitely going to want to have the best gear and spells you can and you're not going to be able to handle things even of your own level very well. The leveling strategy for casters is generally rounding up a bunch of mobs of fairly low level and trying to get most of your experience from the multiple enemy bonus.

But now that my caster is level 100 (and those last 20 levels stopped being so fun), I never use her to adventure anymore. She just.. can't do it. She doesn't have the damage output to keep up, and Prime Bolt has such a long cast time. She has difficulty killing things that my big, bad melee dragon practically one-shots.

As for training points, I'm not sure exactly how you ended up with a lot of differing information about what to do with a dragon. Here's what I hear almost every time I see the question asked: max out Tooth and Claw; put points in Strength and Dex to your own preference; Health and/or Evasion if you want; and Primal if you're not meeting the requirements to cast your spells.

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

Thanks for the responses, so far...

As for me, no, I'm fine, now...used scales to "balance" what I was missing while I poured every TP into those stats....at the moment, I'm still a bit too "heavy" on the 'casting side, but, I can hold my own in melee (working my way through the Level 40 Adventure quests). I could have "bought back" some points, but, I figured things out early enough that I didn't need to.

The confusion stems from a simple fact, true for noobies in any game: we don't know the right question to ask to actually get the right information we *need*. Because the lore of this game makes such a distinction between the spell-casting Helian and the combat-oriented Lunus, noobie hatchies (as I was/kinda-sorta still am) ask questions based on what they *think* they should be doing, rather than what they really should be doing. I asked questions about building up my spell-casting, because I believed, based on what I'd read, that there really was a viable dragon spell-caster. And, the community rightly answered my questions...unfortunately, I wasn't asking the *right* questions.

Hence my belief that there needs to be something easily available that explains all this, that new players almost can't avoid seeing (learning it is up to them). The more information new players have that explains some of the intricacies of this great game can only be a good thing; Istaria IS confusing, when you're first starting out. One less thing to worry about would be helpful, to my way of thinking.

[Shian]

This wasn't really your fault nor the fault of the training points, Morinare. Spellcasting dragons just really aren't very good.

It's doable to level as one, and I daresay I personally had a lot of fun with it, but you're definitely going to want to have the best gear and spells you can and you're not going to be able to handle things even of your own level very well. The leveling strategy for casters is generally rounding up a bunch of mobs of fairly low level and trying to get most of your experience from the multiple enemy bonus.

But now that my caster is level 100 (and those last 20 levels stopped being so fun), I never use her to adventure anymore. She just.. can't do it. She doesn't have the damage output to keep up, and Prime Bolt has such a long cast time. She has difficulty killing things that my big, bad melee dragon practically one-shots.

As for training points, I'm not sure exactly how you ended up with a lot of differing information about what to do with a dragon. Here's what I hear almost every time I see the question asked: max out Tooth and Claw; put points in Strength and Dex to your own preference; Health and/or Evasion if you want; and Primal if you're not meeting the requirements to cast your spells.

This is my experience as well. My pure caster STILL does better just using melee attacks despite being maxed in TP and gear for the primal stat.

I really don't know why they even write it in the lore that we can use magic because even maxed out, our spells are pathetic.

Often the difference between dying and not dying is the ability to attack end on end. You just can't do that with casting as everything has a cast time. I don't understand why spells are not stronger to offset this. They continually do less damage than the auto attack.

There IS a sweet spot for casters though. I believe it is 60-80 where you can fight level 50-ish sand beetles and laugh as they kill themselves on your spiked scales, but again you are fighting things well below your level and could do the same thing with melee.

80-100 is another nice spot because you can sit at the bitter pickle and do the same so long as you have really good heals. (or another player to help out healing you.) That's it though.

Now that I have Primal cast, it is kind of nice seeing Volcano actually doing something Cooldown on both is not enough to advocate being a caster sadly.

[Oakleif]

Morinare,

Please note on the training screen, you can hit the down arrow to get back training points from skills you've trained in. You can only get back so many at a time, but as you hunt you'll get the ability to get back more. That was put in so that you can't totally change your characters training for a specific hunt, then revert it again. Its training, not magically enhanced armor, and it takes a while to train in something...

As for a casting dragon, I go full points in primal and full points in tooth and claw, and use gear to boost my stats. This is officially called a balanced dragon, but I find that I can AOE well, cast well, and survive the inevitable melee well. I also don't burn through hoard as fast as I've seen same level melee focused dragons go through hoard using Gold Rage constantly. My Gold Rage really is saved as a panic button rather than an every combat skill, because my primal spells are effective enough for the vast majority of combats. I hope that helps.

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

Does the ability to "buy back" TP start immediately, or, is it something that is only available after a certain point? I ask, because the hatchling in my example (original post) said he saw no way to buy back TP; that the option was 'greyed out,' or something.

Oakleif, I think I'm on my way to being "balanced," as well, now that I've built up enough TP in the melee skills/stats; now, as I gain levels, I'm alternating my application of points between melee, 'casting, and evasion/dexterity, and it seems to be working nicely.

Shian, I think I found something similar, even at my low-level, playing with the zombies and spiders in the Festival Crypt...standing in the middle of a swarm, simply slamming out AoE spells and the occasional "personal" Prime Bolt...may not get any xp for it, but, it's a helluva lot of fun!

All of this discussion is reinforcing my belief that this information needs to be much more readily available to the new player; remember back to when YOU were brand-new to Istaria...just getting through the first few training missions is confusing enough...this game has a steep learning curve.

[Oakleif]

As far as I can recall, as soon as you've spent points and clicked "ok" you can buy them back by going back into the training points screen. As you play with allocating points, you can get them back without using any of the buyback points, until you click "ok".

[LOVWYRM]

Morinare,

I think its not a good idea to give an (officially written) advise, how to
spend the tp.

For one- ask 10 drags- and find 10 different ways to use tp
(I, e.g., have 0 tp in evasion and health).
Its your personal way to train your dragon- and a lot of different solutions
are possible.

And most important: The higher the level, the more you have to find out
what your drag need most atm. It changes.
And it might change with the challenges you may want to face.

Don`t forget the equippment. One scaleset, one claw-is not enough.

Wish you luck with training your dragon

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

Actually, I totally agree, Lovwrym: I wouldn't want an official "how-to," since it very much is a personal decision...and, you're absolutely correct, ask 10 dragons and get 10 answers!

What I'm talking about, in reality, is simply a more "fleshed out" version of what can be found, with a bit of digging, in the Dragon Cheat Sheet. On one page, all of the Stats, Abilities and Skills are listed, along with their TP points and a very basic "what they do." I'd expand this existing list (a bit) and clear up the correlations between various numbers.

I'd also make it much more clear to the very new player that the *main* difference between Lunus and Helian (or, if you prefer, melee versus spell-caster) is in how they're played, rather than their stats. I'd also stress that combat means melee...as has been pointed out, one really can't make a successful "spell-casting" dragon; they must be able to melee to survive.

Next, I'd want to correlate all of this into all the races, not just Dragons, as I'm sure there's some confusion in the biped races, as well. I'd obviously need some assistance from higher-level bipeds in various schools to do this part.

And, finally, I'd have this information easily available to the most casual of noobie player...exactly how, I don't know, but, the FAQ would certainly be a possibility.

Again, I thank everyone for their comments and suggestions; I'd love to see some comments *from* newer players, as well, since you are the ones this is aimed at.

[Dragonboy]

Some people believe and I am one of them, that Dragons are Hybrids leaning towards melee and are at this moment not meant as Pure-Casters or even Pure-Melee for that matter.
To be able to use only one part of your abilities is like cutting of your hands and feet and try to live a normal life.

The easiest way to play the game for new players is to at least start playing the game as hybrid, assigning training points into Tooth and Claw to keep that bar filled and dump what is left in whatever you like.

Personally I filled halve a bar with dexterity... I got hit a lot less, BUT on the other hand is started to hurt my tier 5 and 6 crafting so had to change it back to strength.

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

Yes, given the breakdown of Dragon abilities, skills and spells, I can certainly understand the "hybrid" term, as well as our "leaning" towards melee; most of our abilities, skills and spells are melee-oriented, while we still have enough of the "traditional" spell-caster (standing back and hurling fireballs, or whatever) to mean we're not "pure" melee.

As I've said, I'm not really interested in a 'how-to' assign TP; that's very much up to the individual. What I *am* interested in, however, is in giving the new player as much information as possible *about* those TP, so they can have some idea of what the heck they're actually doing.

[Frith-Rae]

I agree with Morinare here.

What each stat you can raise with TP needs to be better explained. I can mouse over "strength" in the characger window and get a littile popup. But I cant mouse over any of the TP stats and get an explanation of what and how it effects stuff in game. I dont know what I might get for that point in health vs. the point in evasion vs.the point in T&C.

And quite honestly, as an elder player - I have totally forgotten which stats are best for what. Over the years some TP into stats were totally broken and useless, then got fixed - then still broken...then still useless..then fixed again.

I am totally lost at this point - even when guiding a new hatchie. I dont remember how many buy back points you get per level over XYZ time - I just remember "at some point you can redo them all...and it takes time.."

Whereas if there were constant mouse-over popups that (briefly) explained these stats, their purpose, buy back points per level, etc. in game there would be soooo much less confusion.

If it cant be described in game - in a constant way (i.e. you can constantly refer back to it to remind you) then this needs to be explained eaiser than outside the game.

Again, I am also not looking for a "if you want to melee put points here, here, and here" guide - what we are advocating for is just your simple definition/point explanation type information.

[LOVWYRM]

seems I do not get the point, Frith

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

First and foremost, we must all put ourselves into the position of the totally new player; one who has never played Istaria, has absolutely no knowledge of Istaria, has never even SEEN Istaria until he or she creates their character. Forget everything you now know about Istaria; you don't *have* that knowledge as a new player.

Some of these new players will look in the FAQ (some will even read it all!), and will find references there to Lunun being "primarily" melee fighters and warriors, while Helians are "primarily" scholars and mages. Yes, there are also a few oblique references to Dragons being somewhat "balanced" in their combat approach, but, the inference is that there really *is* a major difference, and that one can be a "pure" warrior or "pure" mage.

This is reinforced, if the new player delves deeper into the various places Istarian information can be found. The new player may discover the Istarian Dragon Guide, which is an invaluable resource. However, under the heading of "What do I put my Training Points into?" you'll find a very basic guide which again talks about melee versus spell-casting dragons, once again inferring that there really *is* a viable build that is primarily a spell-caster.

And, if the new player is *really* with it, he'll ask some questions in Dragon Channel...unfortunately, because he/she IS a new player, they'll ask the questions in the wrong way: Where should I put my points do better damage with spells? What they're actually asking is, how do I build my dragon so that I can sit back and toss fireballs at the critters, like a "real" spell-caster.

And, of course, the answer is simple: you can't. Or, to be more correct, you can't, at lower levels, as the critter is gonna charge you, and you'd best be able to fight, up close and personal.

Again, and this is the most important fact: all of this must be seen from the viewpoint of the new player.

[Frith-Rae]

seems I do not get the point, Frith

LOL ok just to make sure I get this sentence..

Are you making a play on words - or did my explanation really not make sense? (Or you really don't see why this would be a good idea?) LOL


And while I agree from a new player perspective its esp. helpful - but as my post was meant to point out - even from an OLD players perspective it would be extremely helpful. Cuz I feel about as lost as they probably do...lol.

[LOVWYRM]

lol Frith- I simply did not understand WHAT couldbe helpful- or how that could look like. I might need a little example.

What you say always makes a lot of sense to me!

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

One of the problems with coming up with an example, at least for me, is a lingering confusion about two of the stats/skills.

From the Dragon Cheat Sheet:

Power increases amount of damage dealt with magical combat hits...
Primal adds to spell damage dealt....

Are those saying the same thing? Is damage dealt with magical combat hits the same as spell damage dealt? If it is, then, let's use the same phrase for both; and, if it isn't, then, what the heck is the difference?

Basically, I see three categories of stats/skills:
1. Melee: Tooth-and-Claw, Dragon Breath, Strength, and Dexterity
2. Magic-Use: Power, Primal and Focus
3. Defense: Evasion, Magic Evasion, Dexterity, Health and Focus
(where the hell Intuition fits in is beyond me)
Obviously, there's a bit of overlap with Focus and Dexterity, as they affect chances to hit as well as to avoid being hit.

I would stipulate that all three categories are important, while leaving it entirely up to the individual, of course, to determine how important each might be to him or her. But, a 'caster needs to be able to melee, and, a pure warrior still needs to have some oomph behind whatever spells he/she *might* use, and, we all need a bit of defense unless we want to be a walking target.

And, that doesn't even take into account the fact that many of these skills/stats also affect crafting, which all Dragons have to do.

[Raptress]

Primal and TnC add both to damage and chance-to-hit. That's why they are recommended over Power (damage) and Focus (to-hit) for spells, and Strength (damage) and Dexterity (to-hit) for melee.

Intuition is related to crafting certain items that need to have few restrictions on them so that anyone can craft them. It's not really related to combat as far as I am aware.

Using training points to support crafting only really becomes an issue when you want to get as efficient as early as you possibly can, or you're doing T6. You have to put a lot of training points into Strength to see a real effect on Scalecraft, for example. If I'm remembering the math correctly, it takes an entire 134 points of Strength just to achieve an extra level's worth (8) of Scalecraft points. That's 536 training points, if I recall correctly that Strength costs 4 per point.

Also, it is entirely possible to level a melee dragon pretty much without spells in their entirety, let alone simply without putting points into Primal. I leveled one to 100 with all T1 spells, and it was still a cakewalk.

You don't need Primal for buffs. Your heals will be a little less powerful, but they still work. You'd only really use Prime Bolt for pulling, so its damage is irrelevant. You'd be missing out on some damage from AoEs, but hey, Gold Rage is on such a short timer that I'm not even sure I have high-tier AoEs on my melee dragon.

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

The problem is, though, that Primal and T&C are not always recommended; again, it very much depends on how the question is asked, in what place it is asked, and who happens to answer the question. And, that assumes that the question *is* asked, in the first place.

I'll again use myself as an example; remember, please, that when I created Morinare, I had *never* played Istaria...I *was* one-up on most new players since I'd taken the time to read quite a bit in these forums as well as the Wiki pages before I even downloaded the game. From what I've gleaned in discussion with many other new players, they don't do any of that. They find out they can play a dragon, download, and begin. And, most do not use Dragon channel...quite a few don't even look at the New Player chat.

As I began to play, I was still under the assumption, based on *everything* I'd read in the FAQ, these forum, the Wiki, etc., that there were two "career-paths," if you will, for dragons: Warrior (melee-oriented) and Spell-caster. So, when I did ask questions, I asked them from that perspective, assuming that it was a correct perspective. And, the responses I received were based on the questions I asked, reinforcing my assumption. So, since I was asking about increasing the effectiveness of spells, I was being told to add points to Primal, Power and Focus. No one ever said, "Wait a minute, you silly hatchling, you DO know you also need to put points in other areas, right?" And, to be fair, I can't have expected them to.

So, what I'm advocating is that, very early on, all of the stats, skills and abilities need to be explained in a fair amount of detail, and that a discussion of how Training Points affect each of those stats, skills and abilities also needs to be present, very early on. It also needs to be made very clear to the *new* player that a Dragon is, first and foremost, a creature of melee, and that, in order to survive, a *new* Dragon must needs put TP into the melee areas; one can add Spell-casting, as an ancillary skill, but, as you point out, Raptress, one can be very successful without being a major spell-caster.

And, as a side note, that bothers me...lol...in a perfect world, that wouldn't be true: if you CAN make a more "pure" melee dragon, then, I should be able to make a more "pure" spell-caster... I accept that I can't, and, I'm building Morinare, now, to be a very good melee fighter who can also use spells quite well.

Thank you for the response, Raptress...you provided a great deal of information, and cleared up some things....

Primal and TnC add both to damage and chance-to-hit. That's why they are recommended over Power (damage) and Focus (to-hit) for spells, and Strength (damage) and Dexterity (to-hit) for melee.

Intuition is related to crafting certain items that need to have few restrictions on them so that anyone can craft them. It's not really related to combat as far as I am aware.

Using training points to support crafting only really becomes an issue when you want to get as efficient as early as you possibly can, or you're doing T6. You have to put a lot of training points into Strength to see a real effect on Scalecraft, for example. If I'm remembering the math correctly, it takes an entire 134 points of Strength just to achieve an extra level's worth (8) of Scalecraft points. That's 536 training points, if I recall correctly that Strength costs 4 per point.

Also, it is entirely possible to level a melee dragon pretty much without spells in their entirety, let alone simply without putting points into Primal. I leveled one to 100 with all T1 spells, and it was still a cakewalk.

You don't need Primal for buffs. Your heals will be a little less powerful, but they still work. You'd only really use Prime Bolt for pulling, so its damage is irrelevant. You'd be missing out on some damage from AoEs, but hey, Gold Rage is on such a short timer that I'm not even sure I have high-tier AoEs on my melee dragon.