Dragons and their Roles

[Phillip]

haha someone just got owned by a girl draggie.

[Akrion]

Sorry to say- if you play a dragon and feel weak- then you do not play it right. Ask an experienced player for advise, and learn to craft teched scales and spells.

Or you're playing a caster.

haha someone just got owned by a girl draggie.

How exactly?

[Malaya]

-Make my drags stronger- and I will be able to solo the bosses.
I already hardly find any challange in Istaria atm.
Does that make any sense?
My hatchies/adults always are/were able to face anything up to 10 lvl. above- or even higher.

I never said that we should give dragons a hyper boost of Steroids and make them able to conquer Istaria with one hand chained to a boulder...To take on mobs like that means you have been playing for a long time, know all the fighting tactics, and have trained with them for a long time ( which I doubt a new player can do as soon as he/she enters the game )

-dragons can make everything they want and need too. Scales, claws, tools, spells. Besides that I can hardly imagine a drag wearing an apron, using a spoon...

I never said that they shouldn't or that they should be given every single pathetic formula and conquer the market. How the hell did you think of that ? -_- ???

-Sorry to say- if you play a dragon and feel weak- then you do not play it right. Ask an experienced player for advise, and learn to craft teched scales and spells.

I never said that I feel weak. What I am saying is that the game gives you a different picture of what history tells you. I do craft teched scales and spells.

-And again: I consider it dangerous for the community if drags become to autarkic. If we do not need our biped friends with their special schools and abilities- we drags soon will be alone in Istaria.

Again...your invention. ( how the hell do you do that ALL the time ? ) I never said we should make dragons so awesomely powerful that they would conquer the world in both adventure and crafting.

[Malaya]

haha someone just got owned by a girl draggie.

-_- <( and? )

[Ssilmath]

I never said that we should give dragons a hyper boost of Steroids and make them able to conquer Istaria with one hand chained to a boulder...To take on mobs like that means you have been playing for a long time, know all the fighting tactics, and have trained with them for a long time ( which I doubt a new player can do as soon as he/she enters the game )

Hey, guess what Malaya. It's the same for bipeds. You're asking for an easy button for dragons is what you are asking for. Keep in mind, in order to fight T5 mobs effectively, most bipeds have to have years of experience and at least a couple classes to 100. We have to have years of play time to equal an ancient in power. To hell with the fluff. To hell with the name 'dragon'. You're a player. You have to learn the game and your class just as much as any biped player. Get over it.

[Sereamha]

I don't know if this has been said already, but Imma gunna say it anyway.

Have 3 classes: BASE, MELEE, PRIMAL. A dragon obviously starts in the BASE class and can take that all the way to 100. I say the base class should give you the basic abilities a dragon would normally have, PLUS all the stat gains you would get for leveling it.

NOW, I don't know when, but sometime down the line they can ADD either the Melee or Primal class. Can't have both though. NO gains to stats, but new abilities can be unlocked as you move through the levels. IE, perhaps Melee would get Gold Rage as it is now and the base class would have their GR ability quite reduced and on a longer timer. Spellcasters get their Gold Burst linked to a timer on the weaker GR or just have their GR taken etc etc, but if either dragon wants to be really powerful, they still must level their base class and get the appropriate stat boosts and perhaps some abilities that they wouldn't get otherwise.

THIS way, even a lvl 100 dragon can go and begin questing in the new class! They would just have more of an edge, sorta thing. The ones that are lower in the base class can do so as well, and in the end they both will end up in the same place. Eeeeveryone wiiinnns.

[Malaya]

Hey, guess what Malaya. It's the same for bipeds. You're asking for an easy button for dragons is what you are asking for. Keep in mind, in order to fight T5 mobs effectively, most bipeds have to have years of experience and at least a couple classes to 100. We have to have years of play time to equal an ancient in power. To hell with the fluff. To hell with the name 'dragon'. You're a player. You have to learn the game and your class just as much as any biped player. Get over it.

I'm not asking for an easy button. I was only TRYING to give a suggestion for the game to maybe make it better. If YOU have a problem and feel like you should deny everything based on your years of experience then as you are giving a "hidden point" here we should close the suggestion folder for all new players and leave it only for the ones that have been playing for years and know the game like the palm of their hand and know what is wrong ( I personally don't have that advantage because I have to study to pass my class and get on with my life ) ( don't wanna know what you do ) Sound like a good idea to you ? Wouldn't bother me cause I, as well as many others would most probably stop playing when they realise that they are denied to be part of the evolution of the game...

[Akrion]

I'm not asking for an easy button. I was only TRYING to give a suggestion for the game to maybe make it better. If YOU have a problem and feel like you should deny everything based on your years of experience then as you are giving a "hidden point" here we should close the suggestion folder for all new players and leave it only for the ones that have been playing for years and know the game like the palm of their hand and know what is wrong ( I personally don't have that advantage because I have to study to pass my class and get on with my life ) ( don't wanna know what you do ) Sound like a good idea to you ? Wouldn't bother me cause I, as well as many others would most probably stop playing when they realise that they are denied to be part of the evolution of the game...

Alright, you're getting way too defensive. An opposing opinion is just as much a suggestion as your opinion, new player or not. What makes the game better in your eyes may not make the game better in in the eyes of others.

[Malaya]

Alright, you're getting way too defensive. An opposing opinion is just as much a suggestion as your opinion, new player or not. What makes the game better in your eyes may not make the game better in in the eyes of others.

I got pissed off by the way he/she answered me as if I was getting obsessive with the game and that I should only listen to experienced players only because they are experienced... reading the reply as if he/she was speaking to you and then tell me what went through your mind...

[Ssilmath]

Well Malaya, if you would like to know, I am currently unemployed but my work tends to be be 12 hours shifts, 6 days a week in the Middle East. Nowhere did I suggest that my years of experience with the game trumps you in any way. What I stated was that it takes years to get good with both dragons and bipeds. Nothing less, nothing more.

However, I will not stand by and let people, new or old, scream about how weak dragons are. Less varied but not much weaker than even heavily multiclassed bipeds. And certainly more powerful early on. And I despise those who use the title 'dragon' as an excuse to demand more power. You are player. Dragons need variety, not more power.

And yes, your posts were asking for more power, the ability to craft everything and using the name 'dragon' as a justification.

[Akrion]

However, I will not stand by and let people, new or old, scream about how weak dragons are. Less varied but not much weaker than even heavily multiclassed bipeds.

Well the thing is in the early days Dragons were much weaker, this was resolved primarially with the inclusion of Gold Rage. If you get rid of Gold Rage, which Caster Dragons typically have to do, a Dragon is significantly weaker.

I don't see how you could say they're not much weaker than heavily multiclassed bipeds when a heavily multiclassed biped can solo anything they want so long as what they're trying to solo can be stunned (if it's a very high level mob such as SoG). There are only two things that come to mind immediately when it comes to what a Dragon can do better (or just do) in combat, one is raw DPS if a pure melee Dragon and the other is being able to fly out of danger if things get too hairy.

In the long run, Bipeds do get much more effective in combat in just about every aspect than Dragons, it just takes Bipeds much longer to do so. A dragon can be leveled to 100 in a few months of grinding. I see it being much more as short term strength vs long term strength.

[Phillip]

Malaya, you must know that Istaria was made in the old mmo built, thereforethe learning curve is very high. However much have been simplified so even a warcraft noob can swing.

The dragon is a single schooler - it's not that hard to play (I'm raising one now). Biped got it rough as long it's been - don't pay attention to those who think the peds got it made. Within the dragon culture, there's the notion of being less that shouldn't be.

There's a good idea here - awesome idea - of a different dragon race, progressing differently than the current accients. It will add much to Istaria specifically to those who wish to play draggie yet want to multiclass. It will create a huge draw to this game.

[LOVWYRM]

Well the thing is in the early days Dragons were much weaker, this was resolved primarially with the inclusion of Gold Rage. If you get rid of Gold Rage, which Caster Dragons typically have to do, a Dragon is significantly weaker.

I don't see how you could say they're not much weaker than heavily multiclassed bipeds when a heavily multiclassed biped can solo anything they want so long as what they're trying to solo can be stunned (if it's a very high level mob such as SoG). There are only two things that come to mind immediately when it comes to what a Dragon can do better (or just do) in combat, one is raw DPS if a pure melee Dragon and the other is being able to fly out of danger if things get too hairy.

In the long run, Bipeds do get much more effective in combat in just about every aspect than Dragons, it just takes Bipeds much longer to do so. A dragon can be leveled to 100 in a few months of grinding. I see it being much more as short term strength vs long term strength.

- Why do casters have to give away GR? (and gold rage is only one among the dragon weapons- it always sounds as if all non casters fight with nothing but GR)
The primal magic will not be much weaker, if you spent some tp
(or scale or crystal) in melee abilitys.
I doubt that any "pure" caster makes so much more damage with primal attacks than I do. Or be a better healer.
(remember that I play Lov as hybride).
If someone gives away melee attacks then its free choice- not a necessity to be a better caster (cost/benefit: Its not worth atm to give all you have into primal/focus/power-your caster will never be as strong and versatile as a hybride or lunus)

- I can`t see much, that a multi class biped can do better than a
"multiclass "(hybride) dragon.its not more than what drags can do better than bipeds. Tail whip and dragon fear might be pendants to biped stunns. While drags whipe out golem spawns- bipeds might prefer blights.
I only need a biped on my side to kill SoG-my biped friend might be able to solo him- so what? Has everything to be equal? Then give them wings too^^

As said before-dragons can have it all with only one school. They are easy to play and most important- easy to level-compared with bipeds.
But if you say leveling a drag to 100 is some month of grinding- then I understand why so many drags complain: If you grind your way up, without training yourself in playing a dragon with all its abilities tricks and options-
then you play a lvel 100 noob.

edit:
just for clarification:
- If I say "You" its always ment in general- not personally:-)
- I do not compare myself with "uber-peds". Those still are much stronger. And rare nowadays.
But even with a rating of 200 and more you are not automatically an "uber" you still have to know how to play it. Fair enough^^

[Akrion]

- Why do casters have to give away GR? (and gold rage is only one among the dragon weapons- it always sounds as if all non casters fight with nothing but GR)
The primal magic will not be much weaker, if you spent some tp
(or scale or crystal) in melee abilitys.
I doubt that any "pure" caster makes so much more damage with primal attacks than I do. Or be a better healer.
(remember that I play Lov as hybride).
If someone gives away melee attacks then its free choice- not a necessity to be a better caster (cost/benefit: Its not worth atm to give all you have into primal/focus/power-your caster will never be as strong and versatile as a hybride or lunus)

The loss in effectiveness from using melee abilities when you're caster specced is much greater than the loss in effectiveness from primal spells/abilities if you're melee specced. Essentially a pure Melee Dragon can be a better Caster Dragon than a pure Caster Dragon can be a Melee Dragon.

Besides, a Caster shouldn't have to rely on melee abilities to be a good caster. That's just silly logic, especially when you consider that you need to be in the fray to use Gold Rage to begin with, rendering many of the advantages spells do give a Dragon useless. Ultimately, I've never heard anybody saying "We could really use a Dragon that's specced in primal right now" or "You know why we died? We didn't have a caster giving us healing breeze."

Regardless, this is all straying further and further away from the OP. It's not about giving Dragons everything but instead giving Dragons choice by separating classes, allowing the devs to balance the race's abilities and allowing for players to not feel completely left out because they happened to want to cast/heal/support as a Dragon instead of omgdps.

[Phillip]

Regardless, this is all straying further and further away from the OP. It's not about giving Dragons everything but instead giving Dragons choice by separating classes, allowing the devs to balance the race's abilities and allowing for players to not feel completely left out because they happened to want to cast/heal/support as a Dragon instead of omgdps.

You're right. I hereby urge development to change giving the current dragon two paths - they can now able to switch back and forth (like schools) - DPS and healing. DPS as high as the highest DPS biped school, and Heals as high as the best biped healing school. Not bad for going 1-100 just one time and getting both.

Back on topic - I still support the new draggie race. What a grand idea.

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

To this newer player, this thread began as an interesting discussion of ideas, but, has quickly degenerated into a childish bunch of bickering. Opinions are being expressed and no one has to agree with any or all of them, but, how about we keep all the nastiness and personal attacks stuffed in your pockets?

[JDavidC]

I decided to make a suggestion using a ticket, and the reply I got recommended I post it here.

I was reading a thread discussing this. Someone came up with the very bright idea (I think) of having abilities work differently for classes.

Here is something I propose, I don't know if it's possible (as I don't know how what's in the game's source code), but here goes:
Quested abilites stay. However, they are changed to a weaker 'baseline'.
Level-up, non-masterable abilities for specific schools affect the quested abilities (Gold Rage being the most prominent quested ability, I've seen a screenshot of Gold Burst on Blight, but right now, Tooth & Claw is so much better than Primal it isn't funny, and dragons can't be buffed without multiclassing being introduced, otherwise game balance would break). Recycle time/hoard cost reductions could be examples of abilities specific to certain classes that modify the quested abilities. I have seen dragon classes in the form of Conqueror and Primalist on Withered Aegis undead dragons east of Chiconis, so they were in there originally. Perhaps something like the Conqueror class (not sure I like the name) would get non-masterable abilities that improve their melee attacks (both quested and non-quested melee abilities count), and for Primalists, abilities that do the same thing for spells and abilities that use the Primal skill.

This sort of change wouldn't require modifying classes in the source code (which would definitely not be easy).

Given that this game's unique selling point is playable dragons, something like this could really help Istaria out.

Another suggestion, for high level dragon lairshapers, would be to add an ability to Lairshapers that lets them generate special construction units, using hoard. This would go along with the ability to create structures that require hoard to construct (using resources created via the ability), such as massive treasure chambers where dragons can relax on all that hoardable stuff from Dralnok's Doom that they have no use for. It would help to create a hoard sink, instead of dragons having to go as far as pawning hoardable items just to make room in inventory.

To add to this, I'd say Gold Burst (definitely shared with Gold Rage if multiclassing is not on the table yet) could be added as well as a start, and weakened into a baseline version if multiclassing goes ahead. My dragon has all TP in T&C and Primal. Gold Rage alone blows everything else away as far as raw DPS is concerned, unless I'm fighting mobs that evade nearly every hit. The hybrid build works just fine for me, despite the fact that nearly all of my DPS is melee. One minor thing I'd suggest is that the you get to choose the bonuses from the ARoP head scale/crystal, with an NPC that can let you switch to the other, rather than being faction specific (I chose Helian for RP reasons, despite the fact that I favour melee, and it's annoying that I don't have the T&C crystal the Lunus dragons get, especially with all those highly evasive mobs in DD).

[Frith-Rae]

To this newer player, this thread began as an interesting discussion of ideas, but, has quickly degenerated into a childish bunch of bickering. Opinions are being expressed and no one has to agree with any or all of them, but, how about we keep all the nastiness and personal attacks stuffed in your pockets?

e

QFT

Yes Please.

A few of you have started getting personal in your attacks. Please stop before the thread gets shutdown. Its unnecessary and only serves to undermine your own argument.

Just stick to the facts/opinions of why you think something should be A or B and the rest of us are more likely to give your argument credit.

OT:

Oh and LOV - your question about GR and "its not that all non-caster dragons only use GR" only leads me to comment..

I have been told, several times on these forums, that yea..actually - if you want to be an effective Melee dragon - just spam GR. That you cant get there NOT using GR, and that if you want to be on par - you SPAM GR.

I have been told it several times over the years - and I continue to hate the fact that they are right. (Usually whenI talk about how underpowered I seem to be and reading about advice for the right gear/TP etc. invariably the discussion leads to - "oh and just spam GR you'll be fine."

(me being a player who does not at all want to use GR regularly (I already dont have my hoard numbers up for my level, much less if I was spamming GR LOL) and still considers it perhapsthe way it waas orignially intended - as an emergency button (since it costs so much hoarde).

So yea..actually. I think many melee-centered dragons DO only use GR for the most part. Sad that dragons are either under-powered (without GR) or are a one-button spammer class. How interesting?

[JDavidC]

Actually, Gold Rage speeds up the fights so dramatically that you save a lot of time, time that can be spent racking up more hoard. Gold Rage pays for itself, and then some. TBH, once you get to Dralnok's Doom, you'll eventually end up with hoardable items that you want to get rid of ASAP to make room in inventory, LOTS of them. I have loads of hoardable items that I want to sell. With the way it dramatically speeds up fights, there's no reason NOT to spam it. Not using it costs you lots of time that could have been spent racking up way more hoard than you spend using Gold Rage. When I play, I use most of my melee abilities on random mob fights, occasionally all. In some cases I use spells to weaken enemies, and Drain Bolt to heal myself while Gold Rage takes care of the killing.

[Guaran]

Or you're playing a caster.

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are melee with some support spells. Although they have some spells, they are not the primary strength. Trying to use them as such is un-necessarily weaking oneself.