Dragons and their Roles

[Frith-Rae]

I think one of the main reasons Amon is talking about this being new character only is because whatever backlash that may have pales in comparison to the backlash that would probably occur if all existing dragons were changed. Or it could just be for testing, I don't know.

Hence why I had thought it would be easier to just change post-AROP now. Nothing bout pre-AROP dragons change and the new "classes" come in line post-arop.

As for bringing old abilities inline or making them all OP - post-AROP when you chose a school (lets just say three choices so that everyone can advance - yoou stay melee DPS, you go Caster, or you go Healer)

Using say Gold rage as the example - the dragons who stayed in the "current dps school" (for sake of example here) would keep Gold Rage. Caster/Magic Class dragons get Primal Burst (say a full on gold rage for casters) and using it greys out Gold Rage (or once they pick the school they lose gold rage entirely and gets replaced by Primal Burst/Rage whtaever). The Healer Ancients say get "Golden Heal" instead (i.e. shared timer with GR, or replaces GR entirely).

See what Im saying? Keeps all old and new dragons the same. Changes almost nothing about any abilities or quest pre-AROP - but further class specialization uses shared-timers and/or replaced old abilities at that point entirely..

Something that seems like a much easier task with less fall out than 1-making it only new dragon applicable or 2-reworking the entire 1-100 balance for dragons.

Just..thoughts.

Also.. new heads? What? The only head-related thing I can think of was the addition of "correct" khutit heads, and that's certainly in-game already.

Well they are "new heads" for those of us here since launch - put in about 2-3 (-4?) years after launch. I cant remember which ones exactly but I know the combo-fin-horn head is technically "new" from launch, as that was not an option at launch and I would have totally picked that head for my dragon instead of what I got. I knwo there were several others added, but the one I clearly remember being the "new" option was that one because it was what I always wanted for Frith but wasnt an option (until the new heads went in).

Any dragon who played at launch and for several years afterwards knows..lol.

And I imagine was one of the reasons for trying to work some mechanic into game that allowed people to change their looks post-creation (along with many other reasons...).

~~~
Just to add - "you have multiple character slots" to me is not a reason for anything - not everyone has alt-itis - not everyone enjoys re-rolling new characters to level up in *any* game - much less *this* game. You have multiple character slots because its a norm for MMORPGS - not a reason to invent new types of gameplay for new rollers only.

I personally hate rolling alts and in NONE of my games am I able to play through leveling more than once or twice at MOST (and even the 2nd time is a struggle). I KNOW Im not the only person - its just a pet peeve of mine when people say that. *shrugs* So no..that is no reason to put something in a game.

[Akrion]

See what Im saying? Keeps all old and new dragons the same. Changes almost nothing about any abilities or quest pre-AROP - but further class specialization uses shared-timers and/or replaced old abilities at that point entirely..

Something that seems like a much easier task with less fall out than 1-making it only new dragon applicable or 2-reworking the entire 1-100 balance for dragons.

It seems like you're trying to say that Dragons should keep what they already have but be given the ability to class as Ancients, but this goes straight back to the problem I had mentioned earlier. The Devs are already having a hard enough time giving more to Dragons because of the power of certain abilities they already have. Why would they give Dragons more power on top of the power they already have? It's counter-intuitive to balancing. You'll either have a powerful Dragon Healer with the ability to one-shot just about everything with Gold Rage or Gold Rage would be made unavailable and there would be little reason to take the class unless it were just as powerful if not more powerful than a Dragon with Gold Rage, again which I don't think is something the Devs want. And as for the Ancient-only thing, I'd rather no change be made if a change would mean restricting it to Ancients.

[Galdethriel]

See what Im saying? Keeps all old and new dragons the same. Changes almost nothing about any abilities or quest pre-AROP - but further class specialization uses shared-timers and/or replaced old abilities at that point entirely..

Something that seems like a much easier task with less fall out than 1-making it only new dragon applicable or 2-reworking the entire 1-100 balance for dragons.

It seems like you're trying to say that Dragons should keep what they already have but be given the ability to class as Ancients, but this goes straight back to the problem I had mentioned earlier. The Devs are already having a hard enough time giving more to Dragons because of the power of certain abilities they already have. Why would they give Dragons more power on top of the power they already have? It's counter-intuitive to balancing. You'll either have a powerful Dragon Healer with the ability to one-shot just about everything with Gold Rage or Gold Rage would be made unavailable and there would be little reason to take the class unless it were just as powerful if not more powerful than a Dragon with Gold Rage, again which I don't think is something the Devs want. And as for the Ancient-only thing, I'd rather no change be made if a change would mean restricting it to Ancients.

I think Frith means that if say you became a Dragon healer, you would lose gold rage in exchange for a badass heal, so it wouldn't really just be adding on, it would be an exchange.

Just to add - "you have multiple character slots" to me is not a reason for anything - not everyone has alt-itis - not everyone enjoys re-rolling new characters to level up in *any* game - much less *this* game. You have multiple character slots because its a norm for MMORPGS - not a reason to invent new types of gameplay for new rollers only.

I personally hate rolling alts and in NONE of my games am I able to play through leveling more than once or twice at MOST (and even the 2nd time is a struggle). I KNOW Im not the only person - its just a pet peeve of mine when people say that. *shrugs* So no..that is no reason to put something in a game.

It's in no way ideal, but older players would be in no way left out - they can choose to partake in the new stuff, but they'll have to make an alt. It might not be all rose petals and bunnies but the alternatives in the example are to either force all existing characters into the new design (and there was a worry that people would be very opposed) or not add the new stuff at all. With the former option, well, what if you didn't like the changes? That would be a nightmare for you. The latter... is it really worth passing on things that could help the game's future because players can't agree on how perfect the method of distribution is for them? That to me just seems like the players cutting off their nose to spite their face. XD

I just think that excluding older characters would cause the least fuss. It can't be perfect for everyone, so rather than pick the perfect option, it's wiser to pick the least potentially destructive. I think, anyhoo.

~Galde

[Akrion]

I think Frith means that if say you became a Dragon healer, you would lose gold rage in exchange for a badass heal, so it wouldn't really just be adding on, it would be an exchange.

I had accounted for that in my post as well. Losing Gold Rage would require something just as useful if not more useful to make losing Gold Rage worth while otherwise nobody would even bother taking the class; I doubt the Devs want to put more Gold Rage equivilant abilities in the game.

[Dragonboy]

Up to level 40-50 Gold Rage is nearly useless, so my fellow players from lvl 50 all the way to end game are spoiled.
This is a sad truth that keeps the devs from truly improving dragon abilities.

Gods forbid that I have to push 5 buttons to kill a mob instead of 1.

[Galdethriel]

Up to level 40-50 Gold Rage is nearly useless, so my fellow players from lvl 50 all the way to end game are spoiled.
This is a sad truth that keeps the devs from truly improving dragon abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by My own sarcasm
Gods forbid that I have to push 5 buttons to kill a mob instead of 1.

On my melee hatchling, if I don't use Gold Rage, the enemy will beat my health down faster than I can beat theirs... I'll always die XD On Galde, it's several times stronger than all my best spells... there's a reason people are so reliant on it. XD At least, from my perspective, but it wouldn't be the first time I've found out I've been having a hard time just because I suck...

I had accounted for that in my post as well. Losing Gold Rage would require something just as useful if not more useful to make losing Gold Rage worth while otherwise nobody would even bother taking the class; I doubt the Devs want to put more Gold Rage equivilant abilities in the game.

Good point. :O

~Galde

[veahl]

Most of what you say I agree with, BUT there is one thing in your post that should never have been linked in the first place and would be a perfect way to alter…
Lunus = Melee and Helian = Casting
This is not always true, the fact remains that being a Lunus or Helian in this time as a gifted is more like a way of thinking or a religion then a real faction. Lunus generally see bipeds as we see ants roaming around on the ground below us, while Helians think that bipeds could be educated. This is the main difference… That Dralk should have the melee school and Chiconis the Casting school is fine by me… Red is more sinister, while blue seems more peaceful. However the link between Lunus=Melee and Helian=Caster should be severed!!

Did you miss the part of my post that said;
"Originally, I used to think that Lunus would be melee-DPS and tanks, and Helians would be mage-DPS and healers. But Amon's statement about Lunus and Helian philosophy being more about opinions towards CULTURE and not combat style has made me think otherwise.

And since Istaria is currently infested with legions of undead, and the Gifted are expected to fight them, it makes sense that any dragon would want to maximize their fighting potential. And it's already obvious that a player can learn things from both Helians and Lunus; the training tasks in Dralk and Chiconis are examples of both Helian and Lunus philosophy being learned by a single dragon.

So a powerful Lunus mage, or a powerful melee Helian shouldn't be that strange of an idea; it would fall in line with the current world lore. And while it would be nice to have more 'variation' and 'differences' between the two fractions- beyond a simple aesthetic taste- limiting a player's ability to fight the way they want to might be the wrong way to go about it."


When I said Helian = casting, and Lunus = melee, I meant that those are the fractions that would TEACH it. So perhaps more accurately, I mean melee = Dralk, and Mage/Healer = Chiconis.
Because Helians, being scholars, are most likely to search and develop magical abilities. And Lunus, being warriors of the more physical nature (this is proven by the type of things the trainers teach in Dralk) would be tank-melee.

You'll either have a powerful Dragon Healer with the ability to one-shot just about everything with Gold Rage or Gold Rage would be made unavailable and there would be little reason to take the class unless it were just as powerful if not more powerful than a Dragon with Gold Rage, again which I don't think is something the Devs want.

I would think that a dragon healer should do just that; heal. It can, of course, attack, but the focus and majority of its power is directed towards healing itself. So in battle, it would be healing itself rapidly between attacks, to keep its health up, over a presumably longer fight then if someone used Goldrage.

Think of it as trying to kill a level 110 mob without using Goldrage, Silverstrike, Ravage, or Spiked scales.
Takes a heck of a lot longer, but if you heal enough, you do it.

I think Frith means that if say you became a Dragon healer, you would lose gold rage in exchange for a badass heal, so it wouldn't really just be adding on, it would be an exchange.

Yes, I agree; that's it exactly.

Losing Gold Rage would require something just as useful if not more useful to make losing Gold Rage worth while otherwise nobody would even bother taking the class; I doubt the Devs want to put more Gold Rage equivilant abilities in the game.

The DPS abilities are REPLACED by healing ones. Not added to. ...that would probably make you able to solo just about everything in the game, and no Dev would want that.

Also to the Bi-ped-verse-Dragon debate... yes, there is unbalance, and some people frown on dragon improvement because it supposedly means dragons would become 'independent' of bi-peds.
Whether or not a Level 100 Ancient Dragon who has completed all their training tasks, extra ability questlines, and has a fully tech'ed set of scales SHOULD be able to play the game without bi-ped assistance is a matter of debate, and probably shouldn't be brought up.

However, I can say that 80% if not 90% of most player's time is spent crafting or Soloing stuff. And usually, dragons group with other dragons.
So giving dragons more 'roles' would be worth it, in that regard.

Maybe some dragons and bi-peds will disagree with me on this, and say they group with each other frequently and regularly, and if so, please encourage the rest of the shard to do the same, because MOST of the incentive behind people wanting dragons to become more 'variable' is because they only have a limited pool of 'hunting partners' who do exactly the same thing they do.

[Akrion]

The DPS abilities are REPLACED by healing ones. Not added to. ...that would probably make you able to solo just about everything in the game, and no Dev would want that.

You completely missed my point. :P My point is that the abilities which would replace Gold Rage would have to offer just as much power as Gold Rage (or, again, there would be no reason to take the class otherwise) and the Devs already hate Gold Rage for it's immensely over-powered nature. It doesn't matter if 'The DPS abilities are REPLACED by healing ones' because those abilities will have to be just as over-powered and unbalanced as Gold Rage and will be equally hated by the Devs.

[veahl]

You completely missed my point. :P My point is that the abilities which would replace Gold Rage would have to offer just as much power as Gold Rage (or, again, there would be no reason to take the class otherwise) and the Devs already hate Gold Rage for it's immensely over-powered nature. It doesn't matter if 'The DPS abilities are REPLACED by healing ones' because those abilities will have to be just as over-powered and unbalanced as Gold Rage and will be equally hated by the Devs.

Then all that should take is giving dragons healing abilities that have the same amount of health replenishment as the Healer school for Bi-peds.
Not one 'uber ability' but several healing spells used in succession.

[Akrion]

Then all that should take is giving dragons healing abilities that have the same amount of health replenishment as the Healer school for Bi-peds.
Not one 'uber ability' but several healing spells used in succession.

I'm beginning to get a little dizzy from all these circles I'm making. xD Now we're back to my point of the abilities gained being worth abilities lost and I really don't think getting a series of cleric-equivilant healing spells/abilities would be worth being unable to use Gold Rage.

[veahl]

I'm beginning to get a little dizzy from all these circles I'm making. xD Now we're back to my point of the abilities gained being worth abilities lost and I really don't think getting a series of cleric-equivilant healing spells/abilities would be worth being unable to use Gold Rage.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to frustrate or confuse you. I'll try to explain better this time;

The point is that if a dragon enters "healer" class, their role is to heal, not inflict huge amounts of damage. They're not going to be DPSing up a storm with Goldrage- that would mean they're playing two roles at once, DPS and healer.

So by what I am proposing, if a legitimate "dragon healer" class is added to the game, their role is to heal themselves and other players. A healer isn't really a class you're meant to solo with.
I don't know what the high-end Bi-ped Healer is like, but most lvl 100 Healer Bi-peds have Celric to boost their attack, as well as other schools.
Dragons, by my reckoning, shouldn't have that; they should play one role at a time, but have the ability to infinitely swap between those roles as much as they'd like by speaking with trainers in either Dralk or Chiconis.

Maybe something like this would be more helpful;

DRAG; Melee-DPS.
Uses Goldrage, silverstrike, Ravage, Spikedscales.
Has minor healing and minor damage absorption.

Healer; Healing.
Uses a line of healing spells and maybe some health buffs. Also capable of cleansing.
Cannot use multi-striking damage attacks such as GR, SS, ravage, and spiked scales.

Tank; Damage absorption. Hate generation.
Uses damage absorption abilities and health boosting self-buffs.
Has stuff like "Shield of Gold" and maybe other damage reducing things. Also keeps the mob on them, rather then other players.
Cannot use Goldrage or Silverstrike.

Mage; Magic-DPS.
Uses Gold Burst and has a boost to their Primal, making their spells more powerful. Maybe also has a lot of roots, mezzes, stuns, and debuffs?
Cannot use Gold Rage, Silver Strike.
Maybe also has some buffs as well, like stat increases that can be cast on themselves as well as other people?

Of course, that kind of format is all going off the typical 'mold'; that people are going to be grouping together, and you'll have a tank to accommodate for a Healer's lack of attack power and DPS, ect.
But as I've mentioned before- I think I mentioned it?- MOST of the people who play Istaria are doing it solo...
So maybe the Healer and Mage dragons could also be more durable as well, just to acknowledge that. They also have some basic healing/damage/absorption stuff, like the DRAG currently does.

It's just that DRAG excels in DPS because of Gold rage and Silver Strike.

Though because Istaria strives to be different then the 'generic MMO mold', people might protest to that simply because it's the 'usual formula'.

[AmonGwareth]

I don't feel we can properly add additional Dragon schools that would create different play-styles to existing Dragons without compromising the current Dragon school. In addition, there's no easy way to "turn off" abilities gained through questing. Which adds another complication to the mix.

[Phillip]

1) Dragons and Bipeds are the same. And by the same, I don't mean cookie-cutter gameplay, I mean they can accomplish the same thing if that's what they really want to do. We can have Dragon healers and Biped healers... make the end result the same and the method of achieving that result different. Make the game PLAY differently. Make the mechanics change. Playing a Death Knight on WoW isn't like playing a Warrior, but at the end of the day, they can both achieve the same things if they put their minds to it. See what I'm getting at? It can be done. It's not easy, but it can be done.

The disparity between dragon and biped in DPS vs. heals are about the same, give or take some. One do more than another. Not all dragons want DPS, not all peds want to player healer. Fair enough. So in order to make it right, if a dragon healer type can heal as well as biped, make biped able to do as much DPS. Think that's gonna happen? The disparity we have currently reflects the state of mind of both developers and many dragon players.

Mechanics change? Good stuff and I agree. Memory serves we actually needed mezzers and stunners and dispellers way back in the days. Days when your toon would log off outside cities due to fear of getting caught in an invasion, or the plague, and log in to various events going all at once and so on...Things aren't like that and I don't now if they will ever be. Endgame mobs are immune to much of that stuff too. The mechanics changed to the tank/spank/heals.

2) All races require one another. And when I say all races, I mean -ALL- of the races. Maybe Half-Giants can't be alchemists, but Dryads can. Maybe Fiends can't be pure healers, but Humans can. See what I mean?

Buuuut the latter is never going to happen. Too much work, too many ragequits, etc. though I think it's a shame. Too much focus is placed upon the Dragons versus Biped thing and not enough on the Human versus Fiend versus Dryad versus Gnome etc. you get my point :P

The dragon vs. biped came from one side only. For years, and as I and many others said over and again: there's nothing wrong with biped multiclassing, in either craft or adv. Those players played on and many stayed on for a long time. Sure some tweaks needed but nothing unusual. If dragons didn't exist, we would have been fine. I know, I know...what blasphemy. It's dragon who draw the crowd etc...No, we had multiclassing and plots - we would have been fine.

Developement takes massive time and resources - and it didn't help to have an entire race getting in the dev's face 24/7 - that created annymosity and laid the foundation to biped/multiclassing hatred. Never so much talks of balance in a non-PvP, non class-based game before in the history of the mmo - between deleveloped and underdeveloped entities.

Maybe I'm on a tangent or maybe there's a point to this. Things got this way for a reason and it's development swayed by the masses - not exactly the smart mass, either. In order to avoid this there's a need to recognize what that is like, and are we doing it again? Amon is right, they have to be careful.

OKAY. My point is, Bipeds DO need love. I'd be delighted for a Biped to be able to achieve DPS like a Dragon, heck, they could give Bipeds flying mounts and I'd be perfectly happy with that...

Ragequits galore if you do that. Most dragons players are finicky - many of this lot are beyond greedy in their ways - they went nuts before when dryads asked to hover over trees lol. I used to have a screenie of a pig (gruok) flying, you know from one of them bugs years ago when they got stuck jumping when attacking you....I messed with the angle and took the shot....people went crazy haha..Oh and please, I'm not asking for peds to fly so take your meds.

(I know I'm generalizing and not all draggies are like this but - not my fault that the 99% made the 1% look bad.)

Yes peds went from needing no love to needing lots of love. I suppose that's the story of here. I have come to tolerate Istaria for what it is and how it goes. The truth is, most bipeds out there won't ragequit if Amon is adding another dragon race this with heals and everything else - most peds now just want to craft and that's about it. Few like me in existance anymore - fewer ever speak out. I personally don't care if peds don't get love, .

But, VI must be careful where they tread. Most of the current pop are multi-account holders, and play the game a certain way - not that they don't want to influence development - they do and in a big, big way. Things didn't go from how Istaria used to be to here for no reason. A wrong move could mean the end of VI - they can't upset this crowd. Personally, I feel in that in order to make this a good game again, there's a need to veer away from the lot. Just IMO. VI is between a rock and a hard place.

Look closely at the thread...there's an undertone of older players may be getting upset and what not....

What the f.

I personally think they can go ahead and add another draggie race and give versatility/multiclassing etc. Big multiclassing. It would add to the game big time.

[veahl]

I don't feel we can properly add additional Dragon schools that would create different play-styles to existing Dragons without compromising the current Dragon school. In addition, there's no easy way to "turn off" abilities gained through questing. Which adds another complication to the mix.

Aah, okay, I hadn't known that it was an issue. It's unfortunate, but not something that can be changed. So the idea of 'turning off' Gold rage and Silver strike is essentially impossible?

If there's no way to make those things 'unuseable', then it truly seems like it's more an issue of Ancient dragons being given the option of learning new abilities.

I think Raptress's idea of 'roles' could be the better option here, then; perhaps an Ancient dragon could learn more healing spells, or more damage absorption moves, or primal abilities, ect. But once they choose one of those three 'paths'- healer, tank, mage- the changes might be permanent.

Because a dragon that is eventually able to do everything a 200% Bi-ped can isn't what anyone wants.

[Phillip]

What I wouldn't give for a system which draggies to do all the peds can as they earned it.

[Drakarius Shadows]

Way back when the game launched Dragons could craft metal tools and weapons for peds.
I still have formulas scribed from that time and miss making them when someone needs one. Now I have to log off then on my ped to make them.
Can this be brought back?

[Shian]

I don't feel we can properly add additional Dragon schools that would create different play-styles to existing Dragons without compromising the current Dragon school. In addition, there's no easy way to "turn off" abilities gained through questing. Which adds another complication to the mix.

Huh.... uhhh... Dang.
So, we're looking at an entirely new dragon school that starts at hatchling (so they can't get dragon adventurer abilities) a whole new set of quested abilities -and- getting an ROP to match because you need said abilities for ROP.

;_;

Whyy.... why does this have to be so impossible.

*runs around in circles* Well... uhh... Maybe starting off at a separate school then just having the dragon trainers offer slightly different rewards for the same quests depending on what class you are? (Goldrage vs. Gold Burst) Is this part something that is even slightly viable?

[Malaya]

I think Dragon strength should be increased. When reading the story of Istaria, one gets the image that dragons are these all mighty beasts which play a significant role in Istaria. But ingame they are ALOT weaker and can do very little things. Even some of there most epic spells/attacks are REALLY weak ( ex. Drulkar's Wrath ) and some more stuff which I didn't get the chance to see. Also crafting is sorta disapointing. Peds can make almost anything they want. But dragons can only make resources, lair stuff and armor. It would be nice if we could make some food or other things too.

[Ssilmath]

The above post points out an attitude that really needs addressing. Fluff does not equal gameplay. Having the name "dragon" attached to your character does not entitle you to being all powerful. In other worlds, dragons are excessively powerful and excessively rare. In Istaria, dragons are very common and equal in power to a mid range multiclasses biped when all is said and done. Get out of this mindest that a title entitles you to anything.

My two cents on the issue is that dragons do need variety and versatility. Healing, tanking, spell DPS and melee DPS should be more or less equal in viability if not mutually available. But what dragons really don't need is more power.

[LOVWYRM]

I think Dragon strength should be increased. When reading the story of Istaria, one gets the image that dragons are these all mighty beasts which play a significant role in Istaria. But ingame they are ALOT weaker and can do very little things.
Even some of there most epic spells/attacks are REALLY weak ( ex. Drulkar's Wrath ) and some more stuff which I didn't get the chance to see. Also crafting is sorta disapointing. Peds can make almost anything they want. But dragons can only make resources, lair stuff and armor. It would be nice if we could make some food or other things too.

-Make my drags stronger- and I will be able to solo the bosses.
I already hardly find any challange in Istaria atm.
Does that make any sense?
My hatchies/adults always are/were able to face anything up to 10 lvl. above- or even higher.

- that the epic spells are "weak* (what do you expect from an epic spell?)
is not a prob of weakness of dragons, but the prob of spellcasing drags at all. I support the idea to give more power to dragon spellcasters relating to their primal/focus/power/.

-dragons can make everything they want and need too. Scales, claws, tools, spells. Besides that I can hardly imagine a drag wearing an apron, using a spoon...

Sorry to say- if you play a dragon and feel weak- then you do not play it right. Ask an experienced player for advise, and learn to craft teched scales and spells.

Giving dragons ADDITIONAL abilities will- and I know I repeat myself- ruin
game balance and will make them much too strong.
And again: I consider it dangerous for the community if drags become to autarkic. If we do not need our biped friends with their special schools and abilities- we drags soon will be alone in Istaria.