Dragons and their Roles

[Akrion]

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are melee with some support spells. Although they have some spells, they are not the primary strength. Trying to use them as such is un-necessarily weaking oneself.

You think the Gate of Embers or the first teleport gate linking Dralk and Draak were constructed by means of great physical prowess? That Dragon cargo disks, RoP phylacteries, Khutit form, or the Rune of Teleportation are all made possible by a Dragon's competence in Melee combat? That Dragons have mastery of Primal, base of all other magic, because they have sharp claws and pointy teeth? Perhaps you could explain why Drulkar's Wrath comes in the form of magical ability and not physical ability, or why Reklar can only be brought down with the aid of Primal Boon.

As far as lore and in some cases even mechanics are concerned, you couldn't be any more incorrect.

[JDavidC]

As far as the only Adventure class we have is concerned, dragons are melee DPS with slight hybrid healing/tanking abilities. Magic single-target DPS is just awful compared to melee. Getting lots of mobs that can't gank dragons pulled and spamming AoE spells and Drain Bolt in between to heal is one thing dragons can do with magic, but as far as taking on mobs at the same level or higher, Gold Rage alone makes all Primal attack magic a joke by comparison. The one adventuring class, Dragon Adventurer, is so skewed in favour of melee devastation that it isn't funny. Lots of fights for me are Gold Rage 7 -> Loot. T&C maxed out, and the rest in Primal/Health/Dexterity is really the way to go (Dexterity if you want extra accuracy, particularly against T6+ mobs, Primal if you find spells useful, e.g. Drain Bolt, and Health for survival) as far as TP for adventuring is concerned.

[Shian]

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are not casters.

Dragons are melee with some support spells. Although they have some spells, they are not the primary strength. Trying to use them as such is un-necessarily weaking oneself.

That's the whole point of this thread.
Just as some people are more athletic and others are better at monotonous desk work, the issue is, why can't dragons can be a little better at one than the other? Why must ALL dragons be the same?
We constantly RP as such to be different from the dragon standing next to us or even between our own characters, but it's not the same as having game mechanics that actually reflect that.

[Malaya]

I personally think that it would be nice if factions had a small difference. Like...If Helian's got spells Lunu's wouldn't and Lunu's attacks that Helian's wouldn't. Helian's could be better healers and make stronger spells, but Lunu's could make stronger armor and weapons. Small things like that. The factions would be the same in strength except with different attacks/spells and so on. Not big differences, just small ones to sorta make the two a little bit different.

[Raptress]

I personally think that it would be nice if factions had a small difference. Like...If Helian's got spells Lunu's wouldn't and Lunu's attacks that Helian's wouldn't. Helian's could be better healers and make stronger spells, but Lunu's could make stronger armor and weapons. Small things like that. The factions would be the same in strength except with different attacks/spells and so on. Not big differences, just small ones to sorta make the two a little bit different.

If they do anything, I would want to see classes, not things tied to faction. Breath of Ice and Breath of Lightning were just two abilities, and the backlash when people found out that their irrevocable faction choice had retroactively chosen their breath weapon was pretty bad if I recall correctly. That's probably part of why the two breaths are no longer faction-tied. Adding more things like that after two of them had been changed to remove the restriction just seems backwards.

It cheapens the lore aspect of the RoP also. Maybe you play on Chaos and you don't care, but for people like me that care about the fact that choosing Lunus means we think bipeds should be ruled by force, having faction tied to combat style is terrible. Things are bad enough with the fact that the Lunus RoP requires about ten fewer crafting levels to complete. Closet Helians indeed. Lore also says that there are Lunus casters and Helian warriors, so there really isn't any good reason to tie combat style to faction choice.

Tying things to factions is just a bad idea mainly because most of the dragons have already made their choice. Imagine you played a melee Helian and suddenly after a patch, Lunus dragons got new abilities for melee but all you got were ones for spellcasting which you don't really even use. Imagine the lack of the Lunus abilities made you a lackluster melee fighter, forever in the shadow of the Lunus. Now imagine there was no way to fix it. How would you feel? Not good, I'll wager.

[Malaya]

If they do anything, I would want to see classes, not things tied to faction. Breath of Ice and Breath of Lightning were just two abilities, and the backlash when people found out that their irrevocable faction choice had retroactively chosen their breath weapon was pretty bad if I recall correctly. That's probably part of why the two breaths are no longer faction-tied. Adding more things like that after two of them had been changed to remove the restriction just seems backwards.

It cheapens the lore aspect of the RoP also. Maybe you play on Chaos and you don't care, but for people like me that care about the fact that choosing Lunus means we think bipeds should be ruled by force, having faction tied to combat style is terrible. Things are bad enough with the fact that the Lunus RoP requires about ten fewer crafting levels to complete. Closet Helians indeed. Lore also says that there are Lunus casters and Helian warriors, so there really isn't any good reason to tie combat style to faction choice.

Tying things to factions is just a bad idea mainly because most of the dragons have already made their choice. Imagine you played a melee Helian and suddenly after a patch, Lunus dragons got new abilities for melee but all you got were ones for spellcasting which you don't really even use. Imagine the lack of the Lunus abilities made you a lackluster melee fighter, forever in the shadow of the Lunus. Now imagine there was no way to fix it. How would you feel? Not good, I'll wager.

Apparently, you are missing the point here. I am saying that we could change the factions insuch a way that they would remain the same with some tiny differences. Also, just because you go Lunus doesn't mean you have to hate peds or want to rule over them by force. I just said that the 2 factions are exactly the same and it makes it abit boring ( atleast to me ). If you don't want to change the dragons themselves then how about we tie lairshaping style to factions ?

[Dragonboy]

Apparently, you are missing the point here. I am saying that we could change the factions insuch a way that they would remain the same with some tiny differences. Also, just because you go Lunus doesn't mean you have to hate peds or want to rule over them by force. I just said that the 2 factions are exactly the same and it makes it abit boring ( atleast to me ). If you don't want to change the dragons themselves then how about we tie lairshaping style to factions ?

The fact that the Lunus and Helians have a different view towards bipeds can be called the biggest if not only reason that the divided factions came to be. Considering that both factions are a bunch of stuborn dragons I doubt this will change for the regular non-gifted dragons any time soon (at least I hope not!!).
Wouldnt mind the lairshaping faction style dividing thing you talk about... even if it was just for having for example 2 T2 Helian lair chambers or 2 Lunus chambers instead of 1 helian and 1 lunus.

[Raptress]

Apparently, you are missing the point here. I am saying that we could change the factions insuch a way that they would remain the same with some tiny differences. Also, just because you go Lunus doesn't mean you have to hate peds or want to rule over them by force. I just said that the 2 factions are exactly the same and it makes it abit boring ( atleast to me ). If you don't want to change the dragons themselves then how about we tie lairshaping style to factions ?

How was I missing the point exactly? I am genuinely confused.

Also.. I think forcing a player to build a Lunus-style lair because they chose to go Lunus would cause a mass outcry from pretty much every lairshaper in the game.

I understand that you think the factions need some differentiation other than lore (and yes, going Lunus does mean that a dragon views bipeds in a more hostile manner), but adding concrete differences like that when many players have already made the choice and the choice cannot be changed is just not a good idea.

[Akrion]

Also, just because you go Lunus doesn't mean you have to hate peds or want to rule over them by force.

As far as lore is concerned, which was Raptress' point, going Lunus does mean you have to hate peds and want to rule them by force. That's the entire reason why the Great Schism happened in the first place and is what it means to be Lunus. The Lunus see bipeds as lesser beings that should serve under them, the Helians see bipeds as children that need to be led, to be taught.

[LOVWYRM]

ok- it seems that I`m the only one who is satisfied with the dragons the way they are, and who does not need further abilities to come along*shrugs*

So what are we looking for? I really could not find out yet.

Want a dragon healer? Sorcerer? Want a multi class drag like bipeds?

If I had the choice I would always take a biped healer healer with me.
Drags draw too much aggro in certain places.
All biped classes are linked with certain armor- bipeds healers/magic users can only wear padded. Padded scales-hmm-
Certain abilities masterable-that would mean, my new drag would be a specialist instead allrounder like the first generation of drags.
And it would take years of 24/7 to become as strong and efficient as drags are atm if they are outmaxed.
And it would need lots of crafting to get all the scales needed for a multi class drag. Same goes for the spells.

As Amon already suggested, there will be no significant changes with the exsisting dragon school(s).

But to be honest, I have no idea how new drags could look like if the system is not a clone of the biped schools.

[Malaya]

As far as lore is concerned, which was Raptress' point, going Lunus does mean you have to hate peds and want to rule them by force. That's the entire reason why the Great Schism happened in the first place and is what it means to be Lunus. The Lunus see bipeds as lesser beings that should serve under them, the Helians see bipeds as children that need to be led, to be taught.

What you just said is like addmiting I am right. If we have to behave like the lore says then Helian's should have an increase in spells and Lunus should get better attacks, lairshaping should be seperated into faction style and so on...

[Dragonboy]

What you just said is like addmiting I am right. If we have to behave like the lore says then Helian's should have an increase in spells and Lunus should get better attacks, lairshaping should be seperated into faction style and so on...

I am sorry Malaya, but I do not understand how anything Akrion said means Lunus need better melee and Helians better spells.
Akrion said:

As far as lore is concerned, which was Raptress' point, going Lunus does mean you have to hate peds and want to rule them by force. That's the entire reason why the Great Schism happened in the first place and is what it means to be Lunus. The Lunus see bipeds as lesser beings that should serve under them, the Helians see bipeds as children that need to be led, to be taught.

You mentioned earlier to drop lore!! Lunus need not hate bipeds and this was the resulting reaction towards that statement.
Lunus acording to lore consider Bipeds worthless, but that does not mean that Lunus=Melee or that dragons even need more and better attacks and spells.
Myself at level 100 with simple TnC/Str/Arm scales and no other specialized scales or crystals can take down everything T1 to T5 has to offer without breaking a sweat. Even T6 does not have to pose major difficulty as long as I watch my steps like healing in time and be ready to leave when the mob gets adds.
Only some of the T6 Withered Aegis and ALL the epics are a problem for me to do by myself. However considering I have but 1 scale set I guess that is not bad.

Casters are weak... Yes,
Weaker then pure melee dragons... Yes
Personally I think it is partially the players fault that he/she handicaps itself by choosing pure caster on a character which is better suited for pure melee or hybrid.
An ancient dragon is perhaps 50-100 tons of pure rage and what do some players do? Shoot bolts at their enemies and find it strange that damage sux in comparison to melee...

[Malaya]

But what about Lunus casters, or Helian warriors? They would end up with their chosen specialization being noticably weaker than the other faction equivalent. :/

The Lunus = Warrior and Helian = Caster thing, if I remember right, is more a stereotype. I think. XD

~Galde

Lore gives you the impression that they are atleast alittle bit different. I think it would be nice if they had a small difference instead of beeing EXACTLY the same...as they are now.

[Malaya]

I am sorry Malaya, but I do not understand how anything Akrion said means Lunus need better melee and Helians better spells.
Akrion said:

You mentioned earlier to drop lore!! Lunus need not hate bipeds and this was the resulting reaction towards that statement.
Lunus acording to lore consider Bipeds worthless, but that does not mean that Lunus=Melee or that dragons even need more and better attacks and spells.
Myself at level 100 with simple TnC/Str/Arm scales and no other specialized scales or crystals can take down everything T1 to T5 has to offer without breaking a sweat. Even T6 does not have to pose major difficulty as long as I watch my steps like healing in time and be ready to leave when the mob gets adds.
Only some of the T6 Withered Aegis and ALL the epics are a problem for me to do by myself. However considering I have but 1 scale set I guess that is not bad.

Casters are weak... Yes,
Weaker then pure melee dragons... Yes
Personally I think it is partially the players fault that he/she handicaps itself by choosing pure caster on a character which is better suited for pure melee or hybrid.
An ancient dragon is perhaps 50-100 tons of pure rage and what do some players do? Shoot bolts at their enemies and find it strange that damage sux in comparison to melee...

I replied to the fact that he support his answer based on lore -_-

[LOVWYRM]

could not edit anymore,
but just had an idea (my last post in this thread- promised )

how about that:

A new series of questlines
we already have Drulkar`s Wrath

Drulkar`s blessing (better heals, better detox, better cure poison)
Drulkar`s revenge (like revange-but primal based)
Drulkar`s lighting (a mighty,deadly new bolt)
something like that-

this new questlines/single quests of it you can only start with a PRIMAL BASE of (whatever is appropriate at the level). And this primal base you need to USE the ability.
True lunus will even not be able to start those quests, hybride will not be able to get it to max. Helian do not have to give up all melee abilities.

And maybe its not that difficult to implement .

And each drag may decide which ability it may want to develop.

[Malaya]

could not edit anymore,
but just had an idea (my last post in this thread- promised )

how about that:

A new series of questlines
we already have Drulkar`s Wrath

Drulkar`s blessing (better heals, better detox, better cure poison)
Drulkar`s revenge (like revange-but primal based)
Drulkar`s lighting (a mighty,deadly new bolt)
something like that-

this new questlines/single quests of it you can only start with a PRIMAL BASE of (whatever is appropriate at the level). And this primal base you need to USE the ability.
True lunus will even not be able to start those quests, hybride will not be able to get it to max. Helian do not have to give up all melee abilities.

And maybe its not that difficult to implement .

And each drag may decide which ability it may want to develop.

Not a bad idea. Ithink that many players refuse anything to change because they've played for a long time and got used to everything being as it is. some small change to factions won't be the end of Istaria. It will just split things up abit. So far ingame it is asif there are no factions at all. The only thing that reminds you of your faction is the RoP stat you get after RoP and the 2 cities. Beyond that factions don't really exist anywhere else except in NPCs.

[Raptress]

>_> Malaya, for someone who accused me of missing the point, you're not doing a great job of seeing mine. I'm not afraid of having differences between dragons. I want that. What I don't want to see is having that difference be implemented in a way that means many players will already be locked into one or the other, even if they don't like it.

You keep saying it will be small, but Breath of Lightning/Ice were probably a lot smaller than what you proposed and look how that turned out. I've tried to say this in my last two posts, but if you're just going to keep ignoring the point, then there's really no reason for me to keep discussing this with you.

In response to Lov: that sounds neat, but if they're spells along the lines of Drulkar's Wrath, then they'll probably all be ancient-only, and I really think players ought to be able to play their chosen role before endgame. If not ancient-only, then yeah, that would be cool.

I still think the caster problem could almost be solved simply by adding in Gold Burst on a 100% linked timer to Gold Rage, but somehow I doubt that's ever going to happen, as simple a solution as that is.

[awdz]

It sounds to me like Malaya is thinking that since the game lore casts a difference between the dragons, that it should be reflected in adventuring capacities in game in addition to roleplay styles. This is a logical concept.

However, as Raptress points out, too many gamers like to play the cross-style and have been doing so for that to be applied broadly now. Additionally, the lore does not directly support splitting melee-lunus/spellcasting-helian, as both factions have dragons demonstrating both abilities.

From a game mechanics perspective, I think the adventuring/crafting choices should be independent of the factions choice. I do think strengthening the spellcaster dragon to match the abilities of the melee dragon would be excellent, and I think the devs have been looking at this carefully. Lovwyrm's suggestions sound awesome to me.

[LOVWYRM]

In response to Lov: that sounds neat, but if they're spells along the lines of Drulkar's Wrath, then they'll probably all be ancient-only, and I really think players ought to be able to play their chosen role before endgame. If not ancient-only, then yeah, that would be cool.

I still think the caster problem could almost be solved simply by adding in Gold Burst on a 100% linked timer to Gold Rage, but somehow I doubt that's ever going to happen, as simple a solution as that is.

(its only claryfication, not a new post- so I keep my promise^^)
Raptress: I mean something else:

Drulkar`s Wrath was only a name I`ve choosen.
This Questlines should start with first levels-like all other do, but you need a certain primal skill to start them and to proceed.
The different new abilities (not just pendants to melee abilities) have different requirements of primal, which become higher with every new quest (eg: drulkar`s blessing I-X- at X you need a primal base of 1200)
The new healer abilities might not need as much primal as e.g."gold burst".
Even ancients (not only new players) will be able use this new abilities if they are willing to re-train their drags (tp, scales, crystals aso). And all is NOT related to factions (though Helian get a helpful crystal with ARoP already).
And melee drags do not need to be jelous: They already ARE such specialists- without any skill requirements.
Sorry my English is giving up here- I hope you get the point