Blight Update 224 Discussion

[Losian]

Love the look of A LOT of the Lesser Aradoth adjustments, super kudos there.

Edit: Also just noticed the conqueror change.. WOO. Those couple quests may actually be feasible before outleveling them 10+ now. Thanks!

[Mensar]

I'm curious.. if you cap T6 dragon claws at 880 how will we process T6? I haven't run the numbers by it.. but I know I have to don scales to get to 4:1 and a cap of 880 will actually cap me at LESS than not having a claw on at all and that's without any processing scales....

Is that a typo? Or maybe just for the prototype?

[Velea]

I'm curious.. if you cap T6 dragon claws at 880 how will we process T6? I haven't run the numbers by it.. but I know I have to don scales to get to 4:1 and a cap of 880 will actually cap me at LESS than not having a claw on at all and that's without any processing scales....

Is that a typo? Or maybe just for the prototype?

From the patch notes:

Tier 6 remaining uncapped

The Prototype claw is not a true T6 claw.

[Mensar]

From the patch notes:

The Prototype claw is not a true T6 claw.

The saga of the prototype claw continues, hehe.

I was just making sure not all T6 claws are going to be as useless as that one.

Just to validate, they will have 4 sockets since T5 has 3?

[AmonGwareth]

I moved these posts because, as we pointed out in the Blight Update 224 thread, non-bug reports will be moved or deleted.

[awdz]

The saga of the prototype claw continues, hehe.

I was just making sure not all T6 claws are going to be as useless as that one.

Just to validate, they will have 4 sockets since T5 has 3?

Didn't they say it would only have 3, moving forward? It made sense to me...
T1 & T2 get 1
T3 & T4 get 2
T5 & T6 get 3
Adamantium tools only get 3 techs currently; if the T6 claw gets 4, guess what we'd be asking for next?

[Finkledbody]

Didn't they say it would only have 3, moving forward? It made sense to me...
T1 & T2 get 1
T3 & T4 get 2
T5 & T6 get 3
Adamantium tools only get 3 techs currently; if the T6 claw gets 4, guess what we'd be asking for next?

Bingo!!! *looks around for my prize*

[Mensar]

Didn't they say it would only have 3, moving forward? It made sense to me...
T1 & T2 get 1
T3 & T4 get 2
T5 & T6 get 3
Adamantium tools only get 3 techs currently; if the T6 claw gets 4, guess what we'd be asking for next?

No, or I wouldn't have asked

And you have one single Adamantium tool (knife) so.. drawing a comparison out of that single tool that apparently is an aberration doesn't make it the rule

The T6 (now T5) prototype claw has 3 sockets with a fourth tech.

Logical conclusion: T6 tool claws will have 4 sockets.

And yes, your Adamantium tools would have 4 sockets too? Why is there such a rift between dragons and biped crafting stuff? It's all going to have the same consideration. Why would you feel you'd have to ask for the change for something you really don't even have yet?

The other problem with grouping T6 with the other tiers is: It's not nearly the same. It doesn't follow the same conventions of refinining or producing. It's range of optimal levels are way bigger than any other tier and optimal can never be reached. Unless, of course, they fix the range of processing efficiency for it or give us more tech slots/bonuses for our T6 tools/toolclaws.

Now that would be nice...

[Northwind]

Very nice and full of common sense post Mensar. Fully supporting all the points you made there.

I never understood why T6 tools should have only 3 tech slots and follow that weird pattern since, as you already pointed out, T6 is so special with its out of reach caps for optimal processing.

[*]Dragon Tool Claws now have a Stat Cap for Lairshaping, Scalecrafting and Spellcrafting that is 250 points higher than the skill required to equip the claw (i.e. 250, 390, 530, 670, and 810 respectively by Tier with Tier 6 remaining uncapped).

Regarding the skill caps - i still don't get it. It doesn't making anyone a favor nor it will help dragon crafting at all.
Lots of points regarding this matter here in the poll thread with links to another one.

[Thicklesip]

• Dragon Tool Claws now require a minimum skill in Mining and Quarrying equal to what they receive from their school (i.e. 1, 140, 280, 420, 560 and 700 respectively by Tier).
• Dragon Tool Claws now have a Stat Cap for Lairshaping, Scalecrafting and Spellcrafting that is 250 points higher than the skill required to equip the claw (i.e. 250, 390, 530, 670, and 810 respectively by Tier with Tier 6 remaining uncapped).

Skill ranges (the minimum-to-equip and upper limit) of tool claws with these numbers:

1. 1-250
2. 140-390
3. 280-530
4. 420-670
5. 560-810
6. 700-infinity

The minimums are alright, I guess-- they work off current skill, right, same as biped tools? Those ceilings feel awfully low though. The 5:1-2:1 processing rates on stone are:

1. 1-200
2. 200-425
3. 400-650
4. 600-875
5. 800-1075
6. 1200-1600

This means that with a dragon tool claw equipped, a dragon crafter:

1. can use a T1 claw to work T1 resources at optimal.
2. can reach 3:1 on T2 resources with a T2 claw, but needs a T3 claw to hit optimal.
3. can reach 4:1 on T3 resources with a T3 claw, requiring a T4 claw to hit optimal.
4. can manage 5:1 on T4 resources with a T4 claw, requiring a T5 claw just to reach 3:1. Cannot hit optimal without a T6 claw.
5. barely manages to process T5 resources with a T5 claw, sliding in under the wire with 10 skill before the cap kicks in. Stays hopeless at T5 resources without a T6 claw.

I thought I might be missing something, but no: slapping on my scalecrafting scales, I discovered that you have to NOT use a T5 claw in order to craft a T6 claw. I just... this is a complete mockery of the point of using a tool, as I thought tools were meant to aid you. These can't possibly go live with these numbers, unless the point is to make sure nobody but crafting twinks uses a tool claw before T6 work.

[cauri_order]

Why are the dragon tool claw skill caps so much lower than a bi-peds? If your goal is to keep bipeds and dragons on some parity, this fails miserably. Some examples of biped tools:

Cobalt Wood Saw
Min Skill - 600
Capped - 850

Mithril Weaving Awl
Min Skill - 800
Capped - none

Mithril Mining Pick
Min Skill - 800
Capped - none

Why are you capping dragon tool claws (which admittedly provide to benefit other than the ability to add a tool crystal/technique) in the first place? You also mentioned the prototype claw is not a true tier 6 tool....well why was it originally keyed into the database as a minimum 1000 skill req? That seems to follow your previous progression - tier 1, min 1, tier 2, min 200, tier 3, min 400, tier 4, 400, tier 5, 800, tier 6 1000?

Please don't make these changes....you'd make it so using a tool claw is a hinderance instead of a help.

[Arzel Rashemi]

Thicklesip and Cauri I agree with you both. I took the opportunity last night and went onto blight to test out the new claw to see what was and wasn’t possible.

The dragon tool claw stat caps make it nearly equal to a biped tool a tier lower. I’m not speaking of a difference in the crafting classes, but the minimum skill level that needs to be met in order to work with the materials and resources of a specific tier. That minimum skill level is a constant and is the same throughout the game. The tool claw should perhaps reflect this, unless dragons are being given some way to process the same materials at a lower minimum skill requirement of the said tier material. (i.e t5 mithril bar requires 800 min skill level, but dragons can process it at the minimum skill level of the t5 claw)

Otherwise the mithril bar requires a minimum skill level of 800 and a dragon with a t5 tool claw is capped at 810? So, the point of a mithril tool claw is what exactly? I want to gimp myself? Essentially then, a t6 claw is the same as a t5 claw but unrestricted in stat cap. But dragons can’t even equip a t6 tool claw until they are level 100 in the current crafting school. So this would mean that the dragon is stuck the entirity of a tier at a base skill of 810 trying to work materials that require a minimum skill of 800 and unable to work the more complex t5 materials and resources with a t5 tool claw.

As I found out on blight, the t5 tool claw actually brings me below my base crafting skill. There is no way a dragon would ever be close to optimal with a t5 claw on t4 resources. From what I can see, the stat caps look like they were meant to match with the highest base skill which a lvl 100 dragon is going to achieve (700) in mining, quarrying, and essence gathering. But there is the fact that the stat cap brings the base crafting down low enough in scale crafting, lair crafting, and spellcraft that a dragon cannot make fully tech’d set of t5 scales or spells, a t6 tool claw to replace the t5 one, let alone attempt to create the most basic lairshaping resources (imbued bar, excoriation, primal essence.) Even bipeds can replace their tools with the tool of the higher tier when they come to it, provided they’ve trained the relevant school, and reach near optimal on the final levels of the tier they working, with the matching tier tool.

As a dragon crafter, I am better off crafting without a tool claw at all as that is the only way I’ll be able to optimize or even consider making a set of fully tech’d t5 scales and laircrafting resources at least somewhat reasonably.

[Holth]

This:

Skill ranges (the minimum-to-equip and upper limit) of tool claws with these numbers:

1. 1-250
2. 140-390
3. 280-530
4. 420-670
5. 560-810
6. 700-infinity

The minimums are alright, I guess-- they work off current skill, right, same as biped tools? Those ceilings feel awfully low though. The 5:1-2:1 processing rates on stone are:

1. 1-200
2. 200-425
3. 400-650
4. 600-875
5. 800-1075
6. 1200-1600

This means that with a dragon tool claw equipped, a dragon crafter:

1. can use a T1 claw to work T1 resources at optimal.
2. can reach 3:1 on T2 resources with a T2 claw, but needs a T3 claw to hit optimal.
3. can reach 4:1 on T3 resources with a T3 claw, requiring a T4 claw to hit optimal.
4. can manage 5:1 on T4 resources with a T4 claw, requiring a T5 claw just to reach 3:1. Cannot hit optimal without a T6 claw.
5. barely manages to process T5 resources with a T5 claw, sliding in under the wire with 10 skill before the cap kicks in. Stays hopeless at T5 resources without a T6 claw.

I thought I might be missing something, but no: slapping on my scalecrafting scales, I discovered that you have to NOT use a T5 claw in order to craft a T6 claw. I just... this is a complete mockery of the point of using a tool, as I thought tools were meant to aid you. These can't possibly go live with these numbers, unless the point is to make sure nobody but crafting twinks uses a tool claw before T6 work.

I think someone at Virtruim needs a new calculator.
Thaalia of Order

[awdz]

No, or I wouldn't have asked

And you have one single Adamantium tool (knife) so.. drawing a comparison out of that single tool that apparently is an aberration doesn't make it the rule

The T6 (now T5) prototype claw has 3 sockets with a fourth tech.

Logical conclusion: T6 tool claws will have 4 sockets.

And yes, your Adamantium tools would have 4 sockets too? Why is there such a rift between dragons and biped crafting stuff? It's all going to have the same consideration. Why would you feel you'd have to ask for the change for something you really don't even have yet?

The other problem with grouping T6 with the other tiers is: It's not nearly the same. It doesn't follow the same conventions of refinining or producing. It's range of optimal levels are way bigger than any other tier and optimal can never be reached. Unless, of course, they fix the range of processing efficiency for it or give us more tech slots/bonuses for our T6 tools/toolclaws.

Now that would be nice...

Please take a look at this post by Velea. Also a later post in the same thread from AmonGwareth.

Personally, I think claws should be treated similarly to biped jewelry, not as tools (i.e., no skill caps). Dragons have abilities which mirror the tools, except that they cannot tech their abilities. For that reason, I think dragon crafting abilities & requirements could be reviewed and revised. However, I do not think there should be a 4th tech for tier VI because it really does not fit with the previous pattern of one tech every 2 tiers.

[Northwind]

...However, I do not think there should be a 4th tech for tier VI because it really does not fit with the previous pattern of one tech every 2 tiers.

Well, if that doesn't fit with the previous pattern then please keep in mind that T6 itself doesn't fit with normal T1-T5 progression as Hoberton re-highlighted it in a recent thread

see?

I have a question and a concern about the T6 crafting minimum and maximum efficiency skill to make a product from a raw resource. Below is the current scale to do this process, logs into boards as an example.

Min. - Max. (efficiency)

T1 1 - 200
T2 200 - 425
T3 400 - 650
T4 600 - 875
T5 800 - 1100
T6 1200 - 1600

My feeling if T6 was to fall into scale it should have been:

T6 1000 - 1325

or, if as some have commented to me about this, to make making T6 a bit more complicated I suggest:

T6 1100 - 1450

As of right now it is impossible to get to maximum efficiency on this process.

Weird that we have to conform to patterns for one thing but not for the other.
Not too mention that T6 repaired weapons and T6 jewelry have 5 tech slots...

[Guaran]

... Otherwise the mithril bar requires a minimum skill level of 800 and a dragon with a t5 tool claw is capped at 810? So, the point of a mithril tool claw is what exactly? I want to gimp myself? Essentially then, a t6 claw is the same as a t5 claw but unrestricted in stat cap. But dragons can’t even equip a t6 tool claw until they are level 100 in the current crafting school. So this would mean that the dragon is stuck the entirity of a tier at a base skill of 810 trying to work materials that require a minimum skill of 800 and unable to work the more complex t5 materials and resources with a t5 tool claw...

As I said in previous threads, tool claws should not have any skill caps (for any tier). They aren't tools at all, merely a mechanism by which a dragon can make use of cogs and tool crystals.

It appears the whole point of the caps would be to infer some actual "benefit" to the t6 tool claws, beyond the 3 sockets, because of the whole uproar over the 4 socket prototype claw from the quest.

Again, let me repeat for ALL (dev's and players alike), be it 3 sockets or 4 on the prototype, isn't game breaking. However these stat caps might just well be.

Stop the madness...

[Racktor]

[*]Master Dragon Tool Claw formula is now available for sale by Finagle Biggletorque in Delgarath.

Why does a biped sell a dragon formula, out of curiosity? It'd make more sense being sold by another dragon, with the fact that a biped would have no use for
it.

Corrected the XP rewarded by and the coin value of Dragon Tool Claw formulas.

"XP rewarded by" A Tool Claw formula awards exp?

Either way, I like the changes. Will log on Blight to preview tomorrow.
(Sorry if this post belongs in discussions)

~Racktor

[Mensar]

Please take a look at this post by Velea. Also a later post in the same thread from AmonGwareth.

Personally, I think claws should be treated similarly to biped jewelry, not as tools (i.e., no skill caps). Dragons have abilities which mirror the tools, except that they cannot tech their abilities. For that reason, I think dragon crafting abilities & requirements could be reviewed and revised. However, I do not think there should be a 4th tech for tier VI because it really does not fit with the previous pattern of one tech every 2 tiers.

Thanks Awdzie

I can see the logic of the 1 extra tech slot for every two tiers. But I also think either the T6 requirements (in general) need to be reviewed or the T6 tools/toolclaws need a facelift to have some inherent bonuses to make it possible to process T6 at optimal efficiency. I'm not saying make it easy, but let's at least make it possible.

[LOVWYRM]

*sigh* I sign that Guaran..

[Mimir]

Thicklesip and Cauri I agree with you both. I took the opportunity last night and went onto blight to test out the new claw to see what was and wasn’t possible.

The dragon tool claw stat caps make it nearly equal to a biped tool a tier lower. I’m not speaking of a difference in the crafting classes, but the minimum skill level that needs to be met in order to work with the materials and resources of a specific tier. That minimum skill level is a constant and is the same throughout the game. The tool claw should perhaps reflect this, unless dragons are being given some way to process the same materials at a lower minimum skill requirement of the said tier material. (i.e t5 mithril bar requires 800 min skill level, but dragons can process it at the minimum skill level of the t5 claw)

Otherwise the mithril bar requires a minimum skill level of 800 and a dragon with a t5 tool claw is capped at 810? So, the point of a mithril tool claw is what exactly? I want to gimp myself? Essentially then, a t6 claw is the same as a t5 claw but unrestricted in stat cap. But dragons can’t even equip a t6 tool claw until they are level 100 in the current crafting school. So this would mean that the dragon is stuck the entirity of a tier at a base skill of 810 trying to work materials that require a minimum skill of 800 and unable to work the more complex t5 materials and resources with a t5 tool claw.

As I found out on blight, the t5 tool claw actually brings me below my base crafting skill. There is no way a dragon would ever be close to optimal with a t5 claw on t4 resources. From what I can see, the stat caps look like they were meant to match with the highest base skill which a lvl 100 dragon is going to achieve (700) in mining, quarrying, and essence gathering. But there is the fact that the stat cap brings the base crafting down low enough in scale crafting, lair crafting, and spellcraft that a dragon cannot make fully tech’d set of t5 scales or spells, a t6 tool claw to replace the t5 one, let alone attempt to create the most basic lairshaping resources (imbued bar, excoriation, primal essence.) Even bipeds can replace their tools with the tool of the higher tier when they come to it, provided they’ve trained the relevant school, and reach near optimal on the final levels of the tier they working, with the matching tier tool.

As a dragon crafter, I am better off crafting without a tool claw at all as that is the only way I’ll be able to optimize or even consider making a set of fully tech’d t5 scales and laircrafting resources at least somewhat reasonably.

WOW!

It doesn't take much to befuddle me but this whole T5/T6 debate is confusing. From what Arzel said the "update" currently on Blight will cause a T5 tool claw to actually DECREASE the dragon's crafting ability?

If a dragon has tools that work for it (excluding the darn prototype) are those going to be "enhanced"? After the update push. Or only newly created claws will be effected?

Is the goal to reduce T6 processing lower than it is currently? Or is there a goal to promote more reliance on biped crafters to process the raw T6 materials? Note: I am not happy with this if it is the plan but, I already utilized a biped to process my travertine to complete my former Grand Hall. And I no longer have access to that resource.

If I want to test on Blight can I test with my current dragon and level? Or do I restart from scratch?