New adventure schools for draggys ideas

[Racktor]

Khutit form disables both breath attacks and flight.

It is true that Khutit form disables flight, but that is the same way that hatchling form disables flight as well. I have no experience with code so I have no clue how it works.

However, Khutit form does not disable breath attacks. You can still use Breath of Fire, Ice, Lightening, Acid, and Flame Burst in Khutit form but they do no damage because your Dragon Breath skill is limited to 0.

[Andrakhyn]

It is true that Khutit form disables flight, but that is the same way that hatchling form disables flight as well. I have no experience with code so I have no clue how it works.

However, Khutit form does not disable breath attacks. You can still use Breath of Fire, Ice, Lightening, Acid, and Flame Burst in Khutit form but they do no damage because your Dragon Breath skill is limited to 0.

I have to admit I was going strictly by the buff/skill description but even if what you say is true and it doesn't prevent you activating breath attacks, you've highlighted another simple solution... with a working example.

A 'caster' form could limit tooth & claw skill to 0 and that would cause gold and silver rage to do 0 damage.

[Raptress]

I have to admit I was going strictly by the buff/skill description but even if what you say is true and it doesn't prevent you activating breath attacks, you've highlighted another simple solution... with a working example.

A 'caster' form could limit tooth & claw skill to 0 and that would cause gold and silver rage to do 0 damage.

There is a problem with this, unfortunately. Khutit form (and every other shapeshift, like a costume, in fact) functions by turning the player into a different race. Any area where the game does a race check is going to need to have these new dragon pseudoraces added to every single one of them, and it's a pretty good bet that some of them will be missed on the first pass. It's a pretty good idea in theory, but probably more work than the devs have time to devote to it, and prone to creating a lot of bugs that will need to be fixed.

[Andrakhyn]

There is a problem with this, unfortunately. Khutit form (and every other shapeshift, like a costume, in fact) functions by turning the player into a different race. Any area where the game does a race check is going to need to have these new dragon pseudoraces added to every single one of them, and it's a pretty good bet that some of them will be missed on the first pass.

Two things...

I know that Istaria's code is horrendously messy but that literally sounds like the worst possible way that could be coded. Even so it sounds like, a ctrl-F like search and copy/paste job.

Also do we even need to enter race swapping territory? Racktor has possibly identified the most eloquent solution.

There are plenty of spells / abilities / techs which buff / debuff stats, resistances and skills.

All that's needed to address the issue of overpoweredness across schools is such a debuff.

Eg. for a caster school / race / debuff (however), drop tooth and claw to 0. That takes care of gold rage. Like Guaran suggested in the other thread, add a new magic skill that is dropped to 0 when you're in DRADV school / race / buff for any new caster abilities so the existing DRADV school is unaffected.

[Raptress]

Also do we even need to enter race swapping territory? Racktor has possibly identified the most eloquent solution.

I was merely responding to what you said: "caster form". I don't think we do need enter race-swapping territory. I think that's overcomplicated and has too much potential for bugs when I'm sure there are other, easier solutions that can be found. Your wording of "caster form" implied to me that you were thinking that a race swap like khutit form might be a good venue to explore. Clearly that is not the case, so therefore we are not at odds.

[Andrakhyn]

I was merely responding to what you said: "caster form".

My bad

This journey has meandered through so many alternatives to achieving a means to disable potentially overpowered abilities that I'm getting tongue-tied.

Just to state it clearly - ultimately it looks like what Guaran suggested in the other thread is the simplest solution.

Introduce new dragon skills for alternative schools and whenever a player isn't currently in that school, drop the skill level to 0. For abilities that drops their damage to 0 - effectively disabling them - and will fully disable spells too.

[Aaelefein]

I don't play my dragon a lot, but having found this thread I have a question to pose to the developers in regards to 'adding' a school(s) to dragons. For obvious reasons you've stated why adding additional dragon adventure schools is not practical or feasible...

Would it be possible to use a 'craft' school as a...hmmm...what...modifier or augmentation to the adventure school. It might be listed on the 'craft' side and I'm not sure how ratings would affect things...but perhaps you could make that "Primalist' or "Conquerer" class - subtracts nothing from what your basic dragon can already do - but does add to what they can do based on the path they chose.

More of a question, but might turn out to be a feasible suggestion.

Aaelefein

ps...I did not read every entry in this thread - it's late and many were getting repetitive - sorry if this was already mentioned as a suggestion.

[Myrdiatoken]

*resurrects*

I don't want anyone messing with my current dragon - it took a lot of time and work to get to where I am - but I would like to see some new dragon spells, perhaps? Maybe a primal bomb or something akin to fiery strike? Not to overpower the dragons, but to level the playing field between caster and melee dragons?

[JDavidC]

*resurrects*

I don't want anyone messing with my current dragon - it took a lot of time and work to get to where I am - but I would like to see some new dragon spells, perhaps? Maybe a primal bomb or something akin to fiery strike? Not to overpower the dragons, but to level the playing field between caster and melee dragons?

I would like to see a special 'buff' that cannot be removed applied to a dragon that changes to another adventuring class. This is a debuff in disguise that nerfs the smeg out of Gold Rage, depending on the current adventure class and level. The whole problem with adding classes to dragons is the Gold Rage attack.

There needs to be some way of taking away the uberness of Gold Rage on a switch to a new class, without actually removing the ability. This 'debuff' could even change with level to become a buff if there is a specialist melee class made (e.g. conqueror). The debuff could even change in nature depending on the class chosen. e.g. Choose primalist? Gold Rage has its damage limited to 0, with 0% proc chance on its effects, effectively disabling it (Khutit Form disables breath attacks in the same way). Gold Burst can be picked up here, but it would be made a non-masterable ability exclusive to this class. Choose conqueror? Gold Rage gets limited in power to lower ranks, but this limit effectively disappears more quickly than ranks are earned in Gold Rage via quests in the DRAG class, and ends up becoming a buff.

An alternative would be to make Gold Rage DRAG exclusive, and apply the debuff that effectively disables it when using another adventuring class. In the case of a class like conqueror, you could have something like a non-masterable ability called... Platinum Rage, which is even more epic than Gold Rage?

Finally, to even get at these alternative classes, you need to get very high in DRAG just to get to them, as it wouldn't be fair for something more powerful than Gold Rage to be easily accessible without investing a lot of effort by going through DRAG first. Also, it may be necessary to tailor the class-specific debuffs that are like a different form to modify T&C/Primal by a certain %. e.g. Going Conqueror may be -30% to the Primal Skill while using it, going Primalist would be -30% to T&C while using it, with corresponding, but smaller buffs to the main stat used by the specialist class (can't overpower class-specific abilities with major stat boosts, after all).

If it wasn't for Gold Rage, there wouldn't be a problem with multi-classing dragons, as ancient lvl 100 dragon adventurers are nowhere near uber without Gold Rage. Having a debuff similar to what happens with Khutit Form when switching classes might be the easy way to solve the Gold Rage problem.

[Guaran]

I would like to see a special 'buff' that cannot be removed applied to a dragon that changes to another adventuring class. This is a debuff in disguise that nerfs the smeg out of Gold Rage, depending on the current adventure class and level. The whole problem with adding classes to dragons is the Gold Rage attack...

None of that is necessary if they just link timers with melee and spell type abilities...

Gold Burst can share a timer with gold rage. You can use one or the other, but not at the same time. Players could spec out training points and scales for the spellcasting abilities like gold burst, and then just use those.

A month later you decide you like your old playstyle? No problem. Just use the old scales and abilities, and over a week or 2, re-allocate all the training points. Could probably "try" alternate styles without changing training points at all.

Truth is the dev's hate gold rage, but changing it would tick off too many players, but also, without it dragons just become a weak battlemage clone, with less spells, nothing special to modify the melee attacks: knoc has banish armor, battle mage has magus style, reaver has ethereal blade, monk gets melee flurry, etc etc. Abilities that enhance melee to help it be effective and much more powerful. IMHO the dragon SHOULD be the most powerful melee in the game. They are Dragons, not fireflies. I'll say it again, get over the gold rage hate. And if you want to add some spellcaster style abilites for Dragon players, just link their timers with the melee counterpart. Gold Burst = Gold Rage. Something new similiar to mind bullets = Ravage. Touch of Ice (some sort of debuff, perhaps lowers power and focus of the target) = Staggering Howl. They each share the timer of their counterpart, and if the counterpart consumes hoard, so does the spell option.

I don't think it would actually be that hard to do, except for the time needed to write the new quests. The abilities should be quested for. The melee side doesn't need "removed" or "nerfed" to do this either.

[JDavidC]

None of that is necessary if they just link timers with melee and spell type abilities...

Gold Burst can share a timer with gold rage. You can use one or the other, but not at the same time. Players could spec out training points and scales for the spellcasting abilities like gold burst, and then just use those.

That would still be overpowered. Dragons could spec full T&C/primal, and switch between two types of destruction, magic or melee. Amon already said no to this. There's a reason I want this stuff split up amongst multiple classes. Linked timers on Gold-Rage-like abilities puts too much power and versatility into a single class.

Truth is the dev's hate gold rage, but changing it would tick off too many players, but also, without it dragons just become a weak battlemage clone, with less spells, nothing special to modify the melee attacks: knoc has banish armor, battle mage has magus style, reaver has ethereal blade, monk gets melee flurry, etc etc. Abilities that enhance melee to help it be effective and much more powerful. IMHO the dragon SHOULD be the most powerful melee in the game. They are Dragons, not fireflies. I'll say it again, get over the gold rage hate. And if you want to add some spellcaster style abilites for Dragon players, just link their timers with the melee counterpart. Gold Burst = Gold Rage. Something new similiar to mind bullets = Ravage. Touch of Ice (some sort of debuff, perhaps lowers power and focus of the target) = Staggering Howl. They each share the timer of their counterpart, and if the counterpart consumes hoard, so does the spell option.

I don't hate Gold Rage, but I'm aware of how powerful it is, as I have a lvl 100 ancient dragon. Linking timers and keeping stuff on one class just adds more versatility and would overpower the class. There are good reasons I want stuff to be split up amongst multiple classes, with sacrifices to power to focus on another, it's basic class balancing. You can't have god-mode magic AND melee in one class, even if the only downside is being able to focus on one at a time with short cooldowns before you choose between magic and melee again.

I don't think it would actually be that hard to do, except for the time needed to write the new quests. The abilities should be quested for. The melee side doesn't need "removed" or "nerfed" to do this either.

Adding new ability quests would only complicate the matter further, and require even more coding to alternate classes to stop having multiple game-breaking abilities. I proposed nerfs to balance the insane power you would otherwise have, to force you to choose between magic or melee as a CLASS, rather than switching every cooldown. You can't have it all in one class, that's way OP.

EDIT - Other abilities gained from DRAG ability quests could also be similarly disabled if its a matter of 'altering' how the DRAG school works, without having to actually mess with how the DRAG school works when it is the active adventuring class. If there are going to be changes, it has to be done in a way that does not mess with or alter the DRAG class itself, otherwise players won't like it.

[Guaran]

That would still be overpowered. Dragons could spec full T&C/primal, and switch between two types of destruction, magic or melee. Amon already said no to this. There's a reason I want this stuff split up amongst multiple classes. Linked timers on Gold-Rage-like abilities puts too much power and versatility into a single class....

Dragons also cannot multiclass. A powerful/ versatile character is not a bad thing. Bipeds can multiclass and become very powerful. If dragons can achieve something similiar through quested abilities, is not a bad thing... and making it so there were multiple schools is not at all likely dev's would have time for that. The separate schools is probably just not possible at this point. If it were and we could swap schools, that would be fine.

Adding new ability quests would only complicate the matter further, and require even more coding to alternate classes to stop having multiple game-breaking abilities. I proposed nerfs to balance the insane power you would otherwise have, to force you to choose between magic or melee as a CLASS, rather than switching every cooldown. You can't have it all in one class, that's way OP.

Insane power? Sounds like more gold rage hate.

Can't have it all in one class? that's exactly what bipeds can do. Mage +battlemage, and you got a very powerful bomber with multiple spells, in plate armor, with melee attack skills. There's not even any linked timers. Abilities are all available for use at any time. Throw in 100 conjuror for multicast 2, 100 warrior for more strength, health, max out the 2hc and 1hs skills, 100 monk for max evasion, max dexterity. Powerful toon, check. Play in main as Battlemage. Don't need to switch schools to use either melee or magic.

But Dragons can't have that, without nerfing something. I call bs.

[AmonGwareth]

Linking timers on an ability that recycles every 15 seconds? What is the point?

[Guaran]

Well, why would you use the spell-based ability if spec'd out for melee?

The only thing that helps a dragon get good damage is maxing out tooth&claw training points.

If a spell-based alternative was added as an "option", based off Primal, and a player wanted to play a spellcaster, they would move those 600 points over. So that would weaken their melee damage. Scales would be tweaked as well, further weakening the melee damage. The timers would be linked, so there would rarely if ever be a point where the player would use the weaker option of gold rage if they had a spell based alternate.

Giving players a spell-based alternate is going to need equivalent alternatives to melee. That means comparable damage.

"But it's all available for use at the same time! Only 15 seconds delay on the big damage attack. ut oh too fast!"

So, you are in some fight where spells aren't feasible for some reason, maybe its a fiend who just used fiendish channeling... you don't want to kill yourself, so for a few attacks you use a weaker melee attack instead.

Oh man that's so overpowered! And in 15 seconds I can go back to my spells!

/sarcasm

This is something all the combo schools can already do. Knight of Creation, Battlemage, Reaver, Paladin, Ranger to name a few. Equally tough using spells or melee. And Melee Flurry isn't even timer linked to say mutlicast-ethereal paroxysm.

My point is that the situation is already in game with heavy precedent. Anyone who plays a biped for long multiclasses it.

[AmonGwareth]

Sorry, I just don't see the benefit without altering Gold Rage or by providing a new path for Dragons and deprecating the existing one.

[JDavidC]

Dragons also cannot multiclass. A powerful/ versatile character is not a bad thing. Bipeds can multiclass and become very powerful. If dragons can achieve something similiar through quested abilities, is not a bad thing... and making it so there were multiple schools is not at all likely dev's would have time for that. The separate schools is probably just not possible at this point. If it were and we could swap schools, that would be fine.

My suggestions were to allow multiclassing to occur in the first place. To do that, some way of effectively disabling some abilities gained via ability quests in DRAG are needed, otherwise you would have something even STRONGER than DRAG overall, which is broken, believe me. I'm wondering whether or not you have a dragon yourself, because you don't seem to realise the DPS a lvl 100 ancient dragon can pull off, even with a hybrid T&C/primal spec with no points spent elsewhere (which is what my lvl 100 ancient dragon has).

Insane power? Sounds like more gold rage hate.

Gold Rage on top of other additional abilities is what I'm talking about when I say insane power. I really think you're underestimating the DPS of Gold Rage 7. 3 hits at 500% autoattack damage each with increased accuracy and debuffs, spammable every 15s with a negligible hoard cost (Dralnok's Doom = more hoard than you will ever need). That is powerful. Bipeds don't get any attack that is comparable as far as the recycle time is concerned. A lot of fights are like this:

1. Go up to mob.
2. Gold Rage 7.
3. Loot.

As Gold Rage 7 has a 15s CD, this can easily be repeated, but a biped would have to wait a lot longer for a comparable burst ability to cool down.

To throw in even more abilities on the existing DRAG class, or to allow multiclassing without disabling powerful abilities like Gold Rage is just overpowered. Gold Rage alone gives dragons by far the best DPS, bipeds cannot possibly keep up when it comes to sustained DPS on epic mobs.

Can't have it all in one class? that's exactly what bipeds can do. Mage +battlemage, and you got a very powerful bomber with multiple spells, in plate armor, with melee attack skills. There's not even any linked timers. Abilities are all available for use at any time. Throw in 100 conjuror for multicast 2, 100 warrior for more strength, health, max out the 2hc and 1hs skills, 100 monk for max evasion, max dexterity. Powerful toon, check. Play in main as Battlemage. Don't need to switch schools to use either melee or magic.

Bipeds do not have high burst DPS attacks with a low cooldown, that's the point. Against an army of weaker mobs, dragons can casually blow them up with AoE without even bothering with Gold Rage by using their insane racial and equipped armour (which includes hoard). I think you're really underestimating how powerful DRAG is. That's the reason why there have to be some power cutbacks from what is gained in DRAG if another adventuring class was to be switched to, otherwise you'd have unbelievably godly DPS combined with other stuff, which is too much. Bipeds have to do a *LOT* of multiclassing to get a variety of abilities that can be used at the same time, but they still can't come anywhere near Gold Rage DPS.

But Dragons can't have that, without nerfing something. I call bs.

Let's say DRAG got Gold Burst added to it. Now dragons can fight effectively against any mob that doesn't have godly evasion against primal AND T&C. They'd have god-mode spell and melee DPS, and if you go hybrid, you'd have the option of choosing uber melee or magic every 15s in combat.

Sorry, I just don't see the benefit without altering Gold Rage or by providing a new path for Dragons and deprecating the existing one.

Well, my point is to alter it indirectly by disabling it somehow via a buff/debuff when switching away from DRAG, without even touching the Dragon Adventurer class (I'm using class in both RPG and OOP terms here).

[Dracillion]

What can you add to a DRAG that cannot be done already? They can melee (GR VII one shots any trash mob in game), they can cast magic (PC + BoFB), they can heal (cycling four spells). All of this without class penalties of mastered skills, inherited skills, or even dealing with rating (if you wanted to go that far).

So what else do DRAG's really need? I think you just need to change your playstyle. Everything you need is already there, all of the direct damage (GR), damage over time (Bite), direct heal (Primal Health), heal over time (Breeze), debuffing/dispelling (Snare, BoL) and other utility abilities/spells (flight).

Edit: Lot of DRAG's quit in a couple months. Getting 100 DRAG/DCRA/DLSH doesn't take too long, so burning out is common.

[JDavidC]

Dragon players need alternate classes, rather than trying to buff an existing class. DRAG is strong enough as it is. Being able to switch to another class would require said class to nerf/disable one or more quested abilities gained via DRAG (Gold Rage at least).

[Calyndrell]

What you don't seem to appreciate is that tolerate is gained through a quest and is not something that can be taken away simply by changing class. It's not class dependant unless I am mistaken.

The only possible alternative is link it and or increase its timer... which I for one don't want.

I'm fact I'd go as far as to add... leave dragons as they are don't break something that is fine

[JDavidC]

What you don't seem to appreciate is that tolerate is gained through a quest and is not something that can be taken away simply by changing class. It's not class dependant unless I am mistaken.

Um... do you mean Gold Rage? What I meant was applying a buff/debuff on changing class that effectively renders the ability gained via a quest useless until switching back to the class where it was gained (DRAG), instead of actually taking it away. Breath weapons are effectively disabled by switching to Khutit Form, for example.

I'm fact I'd go as far as to add... leave dragons as they are don't break something that is fine

They may be fine for some players, but not all. Burnout is a problem, just one class and that's it? Not everyone feels the same way you do.