New adventure schools for draggys ideas

[Arzel Rashemi]

They may be fine for some players, but not all. Burnout is a problem, just one class and that's it? Not everyone feels the same way you do.

I don't know about gold rage hate, but it sure starting sound like dragon hate in general.

So, just what is your answer to address the problems that will arise between spellcasting dragons vs. melee dragons, and hybrid dragon builds vs traditional dragon builds vs non-traditional dragon builds with changes to their single school? Just how do you intend to make the single class with a variety of builds in it that equate to monk, warrior, battlemage, etc. more interesting or balanced between all of them by changing any of the present abilities without leaving someone or something out?

Remember, it has been made very clear that dragons will not get multiclassing, so that is not an option. Any answer can not contain multiclassing.

I don't think anyone can. Its been tried, its been debated, it has been discussed in multiple threads. It always leads back to one thing. An imbalance between those builds within that single school where a build gets completely left out.

[JDavidC]

I don't know about gold rage hate, but it sure starting sound like dragon hate in general.

No, I'm just stating facts. Only one adventure school means players max out far quicker than with a biped (one solution is to roll a biped toon as well and go with that, but not everyone might want that).

So, just what is your answer to address the problems that will arise between spellcasting dragons vs. melee dragons, and hybrid dragon builds vs traditional dragon builds vs non-traditional dragon builds with changes to their single school? Just how do you intend to make the single class with a variety of builds in it that equate to monk, warrior, battlemage, etc. more interesting or balanced between all of them by changing any of the present abilities without leaving someone or something out.

Remember, it has been made very clear that dragons will not get multiclassing, so that is not an option. Any answer can not contain multiclassing.

That last statement is not necessarily true, if someone could find a way of allowing it without altering the existing DRAG class, and restricting some quested abilities like I said, it could happen. If you want a single class, then there would need to be special buff abilities with LONG cooldowns that would allow for a significant change in primal/T&C, and some new spells that would require the beefed up primal stat as an alternative to Gold Burst (and in this state, dragons would have their T&C nerfed badly enough to make GR not that powerful any more).

[Guaran]

What you don't seem to appreciate is that tolerate is gained through a quest and is not something that can be taken away simply by changing class. It's not class dependant unless I am mistaken.

The only possible alternative is link it and or increase its timer... which I for one don't want.

I'm fact I'd go as far as to add... leave dragons as they are don't break something that is fine

This is likely the best course of action.

My suggestions were just to give a possibility of an improved caster playstyle as an option. I doubt myself I would have used it.

All the suggestions besides mine are "nerf nerf nerf", the ped dies less than the dragon...

... if someone could find a way of allowing it without altering the existing DRAG class, and restricting some quested abilities like I said, it could happen. If you want a single class, then there would need to be special buff abilities with LONG cooldowns that would allow for a significant change in primal/T&C, and some new spells that would require the beefed up primal stat as an alternative to Gold Burst (and in this state, dragons would have their T&C nerfed badly enough to make GR not that powerful any more).

Some sort of buff with say 2 hour cooldown might work.

"Primal Focus"
2 hour cooldown
25% base tooth&claw skill
400% base primal skill

divide by 4, multiply by 4. That might accomplish what you are suggesting.

[Arzel Rashemi]

No, I'm just stating facts. Only one adventure school means players max out far quicker than with a biped (one solution is to roll a biped toon as well and go with that, but not everyone might want that).

It is an opinion and pretty much everyone who has posted on this thread, and other threads before it, has said they don't want their dragon messed with. I won't buy into an arguement for change based only on the logic that some people might not want to play bipeds, and some people might not want to play a single class dragon. Some bipeds want to fly too, but any factual and valid arguement for change should offer information on how the imbalances created by a suggestion would be rebalanced in a way that doesn't detract or depreciate from what is already there.

That last statement is not necessarily true, if someone could find a way of allowing it without altering the existing DRAG class, and restricting some quested abilities like I said, it could happen.

Actually yes it is. Dragons had multiclassing on blight for awhile, and it was taken out, The playerbase was told that it was never going to live, and we would never get it. It is simply too much faffing about for the devs to work on, and means an entire overhaul of a system that has been established for years within the playerbase.

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ght-Update-222

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...he-Neo-Schools

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...n+class+school

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...n+class+school

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...+school+blight

If you want a single class, then there would need to be special buff abilities with LONG cooldowns that would allow for a significant change in primal/T&C, and some new spells that would require the beefed up primal stat as an alternative to Gold Burst (and in this state, dragons would have their T&C nerfed badly enough to make GR not that powerful any more).

So your answer would be to nerf T&C there by leaving out melee and hybrid build dragons. That would be considerably unpopular with dragon players who have those two builds. But it would make dragon spellcasters very happy. It is still not a balanced answer to validate the arguement for changes to dragon abilities.

However, Gold Burst is another ability is never going to happen. (I'm not even going to do the search on that one because of the multiple number of threads on the topic that go back to 2008-2009 on it, that's how much this gem has cropped up and been denied over the years.)

You've based your opinions and ideas out of two things that have been covered in other threads concerning dragon abilities and skills over the years, and these two things are things we have been told will not be implemented. And we've been told in this thread rather candidly that there are not going to be any changes to the Dragon Adventure school.

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ght=gold+burst

[JDavidC]

It is an opinion and pretty much everyone who has posted on this thread, and other threads before it, has said they don't want their dragon messed with.

No, it is not an opinion, it is a basic fact that levelling ONE adventuring class on a dragon would be quicker than levelling ALL adventuring classes on a biped. The changes I propose do not 'mess with' dragons.

I won't buy into an arguement for change based only on the logic that some people might not want to play bipeds, and some people might not want to play a single class dragon.

Why not? Should diversity amongst races not be a good thing?

Some bipeds want to fly too, but any factual and valid arguement for change should offer information on how the imbalances created by a suggestion would be rebalanced in a way that doesn't detract or depreciate from what is already there.

Why do you think I've been suggesting specialised buffs/debuffs that alter base stats. The whole point of that is to balance out the change the player wants to the dragon, and there are tradeoffs involved. Want to go spellcaster? T&C takes a hit. Want to go specialist melee? Primal takes a hit. Want to go hybrid? Stick to DRAG, and Gold Burst COULD work, if using GB or GR massively increased the cooldown of the other one, so that you don't have both without waiting for a reset. I've already seen biped abilities that increase cooldowns on other abilities when they're used, so I don't see why this would be difficult to program in.

Actually yes it is. Dragons had multiclassing on blight for awhile, and it was taken out, The playerbase was told that it was never going to live, and we would never get it. It is simply too much faffing about for the devs to work on, and means an entire overhaul of a system that has been established for years within the playerbase.

I disagree, if you have simple changes (i.e. relatively little coding required, as opposed to a completely unviable massive overhaul) applied via buffs/debuffs when switching class that alter T&C or Primal massively, then that also effectively nerfs a lot of what would be retained from DRAG, but only while you are not using the DRAG school. Go back to DRAG, and you would have business as usual with GR7 at full power.

So your answer would be to nerf T&C there by leaving out melee and hybrid build dragons. That would be considerably unpopular with dragon players who have those two builds. But it would make dragon spellcasters very happy. It is still not a balanced answer to validate the arguement for changes to dragon abilities.

Melee dragons already have Gold Rage, if they were to get a boost in primal power, they would need to sacrifice T&C to not be totally overpowered. You can't be a godly melee AND magic DPS'er at the same time. As for hybrid builds, refer to Gold Burst / Gold Rage putting each other on a long cooldown when one of them is used, while sticking with the DRAG class, that's the hybrid right there. Bear in mind there is healing/cleansing/magic dps already there for a dragon adventurer, so there's not too much that can be used for enhancing the magic side, except the 'choose your poison' choice when picking GR/GB, with the other being made unavailable for a while.

However, Gold Burst is another ability is never going to happen. (I'm not even going to do the search on that one because of the multiple number of threads on the topic that go back to 2008-2009 on it, that's how much this gem has cropped up and been denied over the years.)

The reason Amon rejected it is because having both GR and GB, even on a shared timer, would mean too much easy-mode switching between melee and magic dps, particularly for hybrid dragons, and that would overpower DRAG. This is why I mentioned using one ability putting the other on a long cooldown. Hybrids can only fill one of the magic or melee dps roles effectively at a time, but they cannot do both at the same time. Non-hybrids would be more locked into GR or GB as they wouldn't have the skill to use both effectively.

You've based your opinions and ideas out of two things that have been covered in other threads concerning dragon abilities and skills over the years, and these two things are things we have been told will not be implemented. And we've been told in this thread rather candidly that there are not going to be any changes to the Dragon Adventure school.

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ght=gold+burst

That's assuming Amon does not change his mind.

The only way there will ever be a primal version of Gold Rage is if we completely alter Gold Rage itself.

I don't see why GR would have to be completely altered, like I said, altering base stats when switching schools would indirectly nerf GR instead.

And the only way to define different roles for Dragons properly is in my mind to make them individual schools, which would involve taking stuff away from existing Dragons.

I don't see how you take stuff away from existing dragons if switching schools alters the baseline skills that quested abilities depend on. DRAGs would still have what they do now, but in different schools, the quested abilities would have altered effectiveness. Switching back to DRAG would mean they still have everything that they had before. I don't see how this would be a major design issue. Applying a massive hit to T&C for switching to a caster class would make GR not very good for anything other than ez-mode trash mobs, no need to touch GR directly.

[Guaran]

...Why do you think I've been suggesting specialised buffs/debuffs that alter base stats. The whole point of that is to balance out the change the player wants to the dragon, and there are tradeoffs involved. Want to go spellcaster? T&C takes a hit. Want to go specialist melee? Primal takes a hit.

So, specialist melee would mean an increase in current melee then? Somehow I doubt this is what you are suggesting. So you are back to nerf gold rage, no thanks. The current system where a hybrid can be effective does not need nerfed. Gold rage does not need nerfed. DRAG is equivalent to a strong zerk + weak at spells battlemage. Don't think so? spec yourself a toon with 600 training points in 2 hand slash.

If you want to argue for a specialist melee that doubles t&c and halves primal, great!

Want to go hybrid? Stick to DRAG, and Gold Burst COULD work, if using GB or GR massively increased the cooldown of the other one, so that you don't have both without waiting for a reset. I've already seen biped abilities that increase cooldowns on other abilities when they're used, so I don't see why this would be difficult to program in...

Massive cooldown timer?? Back to the nerf gold rage/gold rage hate. On behalf of all dragons everywhere, NO THANKS.

Melee dragons already have Gold Rage, if they were to get a boost in primal power, they would need to sacrifice T&C to not be totally overpowered. You can't be a godly melee AND magic DPS'er at the same time.

Bs. My biped is exactly that.

As for hybrid builds, refer to Gold Burst / Gold Rage putting each other on a long cooldown when one of them is used, while sticking with the DRAG class, that's the hybrid right there. Bear in mind there is healing/cleansing/magic dps already there for a dragon adventurer, so there's not too much that can be used for enhancing the magic side, except the 'choose your poison' choice when picking GR/GB, with the other being made unavailable for a while.

Wrong. Dragon heals are very weak save for the once every 5 minutes Refreshing Breeze ability. And even that can't always save you. The Quickening Breeze 5 ticks for 76 health. Cleanses are solely Cleanse III tech on the breezes or buffs... they miss cleansing a lot.

The reason Amon rejected it is because having both GR and GB, even on a shared timer, would mean too much easy-mode switching between melee and magic dps, particularly for hybrid dragons, and that would overpower DRAG.

I don't see how it overpowers. It would just give some choices and options. The gold burst, if it was a ranged spelltype ability, could be made to hit for less damage than GR since it is ranged as a bit of a tradeoff.

The "overpowers" statement comes solely from a place of gold rage hate. I've already stated my opinions on that.

This is why I mentioned using one ability putting the other on a long cooldown. Hybrids can only fill one of the magic or melee dps roles effectively at a time, but they cannot do both at the same time...

Why the strong objections to be able to do both at the same time??? See - Reaver/Paladin/Knoc/Battlemage/Guardian/Ranger. The mystics of which have more heals, better cleanses to boot.

[JDavidC]

So, specialist melee would mean an increase in current melee then? Somehow I doubt this is what you are suggesting. So you are back to nerf gold rage, no thanks. The current system where a hybrid can be effective does not need nerfed. Gold rage does not need nerfed. DRAG is equivalent to a strong zerk + weak at spells battlemage. Don't think so? spec yourself a toon with 600 training points in 2 hand slash.

OK, what DPS can a biped pull compared to melee dragons spamming GR? I need numbers here, preferably with screenshots.

If you want to argue for a specialist melee that doubles t&c and halves primal, great!

That's a bit of an extreme example, but yes, it alters not just class abilities, but quested abilities, simply by changing stats.

Massive cooldown timer?? Back to the nerf gold rage/gold rage hate. On behalf of all dragons everywhere, NO THANKS.

Please stop twisting my words. You use one, the OTHER is put on a massive cooldown, you can't choose both at the same time all the time. If you use Gold Rage, it only goes on a 15s CD timer, as usual, but Gold Burst goes on to a much longer cooldown timer, and vice versa.

My biped is exactly that.

Prove it, with figures showing that you can have sustainable godly magic and melee dps as a biped, not just burst mind you, but sustained over a long fight. THAT is where dragons shine when it comes to melee.

Wrong. Dragon heals are very weak save for the once every 5 minutes Refreshing Breeze ability. And even that can't always save you. The Quickening Breeze 5 ticks for 76 health. Cleanses are solely Cleanse III tech on the breezes or buffs... they miss cleansing a lot.

You'll have to prove me wrong. Dragon heals aren't spectacular, but they are MUCH better than nothing. I never said dragon heals were strong compared to bipeds, so please don't put words into my mouth.

I don't see how it overpowers. It would just give some choices and options. The gold burst, if it was a ranged spelltype ability, could be made to hit for less damage than GR since it is ranged as a bit of a tradeoff.

Let me ask you something, do you actually play a dragon? Bipeds can pull off insane burst DPS, but they can't keep it up for long due to relatively long cooldown timers. Dragons can keep on going every 15 seconds.

The "overpowers" statement comes solely from a place of gold rage hate. I've already stated my opinions on that.

It's not Gold Rage hate, it's the fact that Gold Rage IS powerful, and it makes it difficult to add new things without overpowering the class. Why do you think Amon focuses so much on Gold Rage when dragons are discussed?

Why the strong objections to be able to do both at the same time??? See - Reaver/Paladin/Knoc/Battlemage/Guardian/Ranger. The mystics of which have more heals, better cleanses to boot.

Again, the sheer DPS, I don't think you have any idea what the magnitude of the long-term sustained DPS involved with Gold Rage AND Gold Burst would be compared to anything a maxed out biped toon could pull off.