Plot / lair permissions

[Andrakhyn]

The way current plot / lair permissions work is like this.

At the plot level you can set permissions as:

• Deny All
• Allow All
• Guild Only
• Friends Only (can manage plot friends list here)

At the individual structure level you can set permissions as:

• Locked
• Open
• Guild Only

Any player attempting to access a structure needs to meet both the plot and structure permissions.

This works for some scenarios but not others. Many players - myself included - would like to leave a few silos public. My lair is very close to resources and I would like to leave most of the silos around my crafting chambers open for the convenience of other players.

But to do that I have to set the plot level permission to Allow All. This unfortunately isn't an option. I share the lair with another Dragon which means I use Friends Only as the plot level setting. I believe the Friends Only setting is also commonly used to allow a player's alts access to a plot.

A relatively small change to the permission system which would offer MUCH more flexibility would be...

At the plot level you can manage your plot friends list:

• Friends (can manage plot friends list here)

** removed Deny All, Allow All, Guild Only, Friends Only settings **

At the individual structure level you can set permissions as:

• Locked
• Open
• Guild
• Friends [NEW]
• Guild + Friends [NEW]

Any player attempting to access a structure need only meet the structure permissions [NEW]. Note, however, that a separate friends list would not be kept for each structure. A single friends list would be stored at the plot level (as now) and checked if that option was selected for a structure.

The only option lost with this scheme is using the plot level Deny All setting to instantly deny access to everyone but the owner. This could added as an extra setting / check if desired.

It would be even better if you could allow for two or three separate friends lists but that would probably require a redesign of the structure level permission UI - eg. adding multiple-select checkboxes. That might be difficult?

[Northwind]

Wouldn't be easier to make individual structure permissions to take precedence over general plot permissions while having the exact same set of permissions at both levels (Allow All, Deny All, Guild Only, Friends)?

Or, even better, to have the last setting to take precedence over previous: setting Deny All at plot level will set "deny all" to all structures, then you go to those structures you want to open and set them to Friends/Allow All/etc individually.
If you change your mind and don't want to reset permissions individually on structures, then you can go again at plot level and set Deny All again

This way you can set a global permission for the entire plot/lair, then customize the permissions at structure level if you want to set different permissions to certain structures.

[Andrakhyn]

Wouldn't be easier to make individual structure permissions to take precedence over general plot permissions while having the exact same set of permissions at both levels (Allow All, Deny All, Guild Only, Friends)?

At least in the current scheme every structure has a permission setting so it would always take precedence. Plot level permissions would be something you could set but would have no effect at all.

Or, even better, to have the last setting to take precedence over previous: setting Deny All at plot level will set "deny all" to all structures, then you go to those structures you want to open and set them to Friends/Allow All/etc individually.

For the game to determine which is the last setting it would need to record the date+time of every plot and structure permission every time you set it. That's do-able and date+time data is fairly small, but it would require database changes.

If I could suggest something simpler that seems functionally similar?

Have a permission setting at the plot level which lets you simultaneously change the permission setting for all structures at once. No extra data needs to be stored - when executed the code would just write the new permission settings directly to each structure.

[Northwind]

For the game to determine which is the last setting it would need to record the date+time of every plot and structure permission every time you set it. That's do-able and date+time data is fairly small, but it would require database changes.
.

no? why's that?
Every structure should have only one permission setting.
With plot setting you should set permissions to every structrure in the entire plot in bulk mode, while with structure permissions you should set them individually.

At least in the current scheme every structure has a permission setting so it would always take precedence. Plot level permissions would be something you could set but would have no effect at all.

No again.
In the current scheme you have 2 permission types (plot and structure) the most restrictive permission of those two is taking precedence.

But what is creating all this mess is the fact that structure permissions is lacking the Friends setting.
Add that and it will make the things less annoying.
If you also remove the "most restrictive permission takes precedence" you could have best granularity in permission settings.

[Andrakhyn]

no? why's that?
Every structure should have only one permission setting.
With plot setting you should set permissions to every structrure in the entire plot in bulk mode, while with structure permissions you should set them individually.

What you suggested was, and I'll quote for ease:

Or, even better, to have the last setting to take precedence over previous: setting Deny All at plot level will set "deny all" to all structures, then you go to those structures you want to open and set them to Friends/Allow All/etc individually.

For the game to determine what the "last setting" is it would need a date+time stamp on each permission setting for comparison.

That or a scary Skynet-like intelligence....

No again.
In the current scheme you have 2 permission types (plot and structure) the most restrictive permission taking precedence, be that at plot or at structure level.

Take a moment to think about this.

What I've said is right - for a player to access a structure they need to meet BOTH plot and structure permission settings.

The logic / test is:

IF Player meets plot permission AND player meets structure permission THEN allow access

What you're saying is a more convoluted alternative logic that would always produce the same result as the simpler test above.

First you'd need to store ratings for each permission setting and it's level of restrictiveness.

The logic / test would be:

1) Grab plot and permission restrictiveness rating
2) IF plot permission rating > structure permission rating THEN use plot permission ELSE use structure permission
3) IF player meets (plot or structure permission depending on stage 1+2) THEN allow access

If you don't believe me, grab a pencil and paper and run both tests through a few scenarios.

[Northwind]

You really like to twist things up and make a mess out of them, aren't you?
Let's see:

For the game to determine what the "last setting" is it would need a date+time stamp on each permission setting for comparison.

That or a scary Skynet-like intelligence....

Seriously? No.
Actually it only needs a single place to store the permissions (at structure level), not two, and that place obviously will store only the LAST SETTING.
You came to the same conclusion at the end of post #3 but using a different phrasing

What I've said is right - for a player to access a structure they need to meet BOTH plot and structure permission settings.

The logic / test is:

IF Player meets plot permission AND player meets structure permission THEN allow access

What you're saying is a more convoluted alternative logic that would always produce the same result as the simpler test above.

First you'd need to store ratings for each permission setting and it's level of restrictiveness.

The logic / test would be:

1) Grab plot and permission restrictiveness rating
2) IF plot permission rating > structure permission rating THEN use plot permission ELSE use structure permission
3) IF player meets (plot or structure permission depending on stage 1+2) THEN allow access

If you don't believe me, grab a pencil and paper and run both tests through a few scenarios.

That makes no sense whatsoever.


You said in your initial response that:

At least in the current scheme every structure has a permission setting so it would always take precedence. Plot level permissions would be something you could set but would have no effect at all.

So Plot level permissions could be set but would have no effect at all? Wrong.
Try to set Deny all at plot level, then see if it matters
Or keep reading this post

I said that we currently have two permission settings (plot and structure) and the most restrictive permission takes precedence. I invite you to test it.
Plot has: Allow All, Deny All, Guild Only, Friends
Structure has: Open, Locked, Guild only
Note: The owner always has access, no matter what permissions he set.

Scenario1: Deny All at plot level.
It doesn't matter what you set at structure level, Deny All is the most restrictive setting and it will deny access to everyone.
Conclusion: No one has access bar the ower, no matter structure permission

Scenario2: Guild Only at plot level
Now if you set Open at structure level, the Guild only will be in effect as it being the most restrictive.
If you set it to Locked, then it will be locked to everyone else since Locked is more restrictive than Guild Only
Conclusion: Either the entire guild or ONLY the owner will have access to a structure based on structure permission

Scenario3: Friends at plot level
Set the structure to Open, then Friends list will take precedence since is more restrictive and only Friends will have access
Set the structure to Guild only, then Friends list will take precedence since is more restrictive
Set the structure to Locked, then it will be locked since Locked is more restrictive
Conclusion: Either the Friends list or ONLY the owner will have access to a structure based on structure permission

Scenario4: Allow All
Structure to Open: means the structure is Open to all - that is Public.
Structure to Guild: means the structure is open to Guild only, Guild setting being more restrictive and taking precedence
Locked: means the structure is locked to all, Locked setting being more restrictive and taking precedence.
Conclusion: Structures can be Public, open to Guild or only to owner based on Structure permission settings.

So, as it is now, we cannot have on a plot both Public and Friends structures NOR Friends and Guild structures. Which is a rather harsh limitation.

How can that be corrected?

1. Keep the current system but add Friends setting on structure level.
If we would have that, then we could set the plot to Allow all, then set permissions on each and every structure to be either Public, open to Guild, open to Friends list or Locked. The Friends list could be common to both Plot and Structure.

2. Drop the current system, have the Plot and Structure having the same permissions (Allow All, Deny All, Guild, Friends) and make the Plot settings to make bulk settings to all structures. You could then go and customize each structure individually. That's what I said in post #2 and also Andrakhyn "translated" it at the end of post #3

[Andrakhyn]

Sorry Northwind, but you seem to just be arguing for the sake of it.

You misrepresent what I say and then demand that I defend a position I don't hold. I'm not going to waste my time with this - let's just use the first one to show your intentions.

Seriously? No.
Actually it only needs a single place to store the permissions (at structure level), not two, and that place obviously will store only the LAST SETTING.
You came to the same conclusion at the end of post #3 but using a different phrasing

This is tragically obvious lie.

In my OP - post 1 - I explicitly and clearly suggest storing permissions only at the structure level.

In your first post - post 2 - you suggest storing it at two levels, plot and structure, and then suggest a time-based precedence component.

Wouldn't be easier to make individual structure permissions to take precedence over general plot permissions while having the exact same set of permissions at both levels (Allow All, Deny All, Guild Only, Friends)?

Or, even better, to have the last setting to take precedence over previous: setting Deny All at plot level will set "deny all" to all structures, then you go to those structures you want to open and set them to Friends/Allow All/etc individually.
If you change your mind and don't want to reset permissions individually on structures, then you can go again at plot level and set Deny All again

This way you can set a global permission for the entire plot/lair, then customize the permissions at structure level if you want to set different permissions to certain structures.

Thank you for your suggestion that led to the inclusion of a mass-update option, but I don't think I'll be reading any more of your posts.

[Northwind]

I'm not arguing.
Because you want to change a system without apparently knowing how it works in the first place, I just showed to you in detail how plot permissions work, what are the limitations and what could be done, in my opinion of course, to have it improved.

If you already knew them, then I'm sure a recap didn't hurt, plus it may provide useful information for some of the fellow players that don't have a plot yet.

And my advice is for you to take the forum "arguments" lightly. I'm pretty sure the dev team could picking up nice ideas from our, more or less heated, brainstorming sessions

[Zorbin]

So, as it is now, we cannot have on a plot both Public and Friends structures NOR Friends and Guild structures. Which is a rather harsh limitation.

you can (under friends list) set plot structures for friends and guild, individually. but you are correct that under allow all, you can not set public and friends. which i requested a month ago or so, for friends to be added to the allow all setting. instead of just deny all / guild only / allow all

[Northwind]

I tested it above. And it didnt worked. I mean you can set it, but Friends will take precedence and will deny access to any guildie that is not on the friends list

[Zorbin]

I tested it above. And it didnt worked. I mean you can set it, but Friends will take precedence and will deny access to any guildie that is not on the friends list

the reasoning behind that, is the entire reason for setting a friends list to access a plot. no real reason your guildies aren't in the list for silo and other such access anyway. unless of course, you don't trust some, which make this option even better as they can not access the guild only feature, if they aren't in listing for friends. but the option "is" there and is usable so not all listed friends have access.

[Northwind]

I simply don't get what you mean.
Maybe my English is not that good as I thought it is.

Still I can assure you that I tested personally every scenario that raised my doubts, Friends especially, by dual logging my both accounts.
So yes, you can set the plot to Friends and the Silo to Guild.
Who will have access?
Only the people that are in the friends list. A guildie that is not on that list won't be able to use the silo.

[Zorbin]

I simply don't get what you mean.
Maybe my English is not that good as I thought it is.

Still I can assure you that I tested personally every scenario that raised my doubts, Friends especially, by dual logging my both accounts.
So yes, you can set the plot to Friends and the Silo to Guild.
Who will have access?
Only the people that are in the friends list. A guildie that is not on that list won't be able to use the silo.

as i said this is correct and the whole reason for someone to use a friend list setting. if you wanted everyone not in friends listing to have access to something, then you don't use the friends list. you would use allow all setting on 4th tab, then set the guild only per structure.

if you choose to use the friends list setting, then yes anyone needing access via guild only structures or open, need to be on friends list. this is also the reason that friends list, allow all and guild only can not be combined into one tab.

but as per your earlier statement "we cannot have on a plot both Public and Friends structures NOR Friends and Guild structures. Which is a rather harsh limitation. " the guild setting is still usable, just need to add all guild members to the list. it will still keep normal everyday friends from accessing guild only structures, and allow the guild members in. otherwise, their is no real purpose to be using the friends only setting.

it's not a big deal to add your guildies to your list. and they will be the only ones able to access guild only structures

[Smaug]

I simply don't get what you mean.
Maybe my English is not that good as I thought it is.

Still I can assure you that I tested personally every scenario that raised my doubts, Friends especially, by dual logging my both accounts.
So yes, you can set the plot to Friends and the Silo to Guild.
Who will have access?
Only the people that are in the friends list. A guildie that is not on that list won't be able to use the silo.

I do believe if you set plot to friends and structure to guild only you have to be BOTH to access. A guild mate not in the friends list cannot access nor can someone in the friends list but not a guild mate.

Its meet both or don't have access. Maybe I'm wrong but its the way seems to work for me.

Smaug

[Smaug]

To make this real easy why not add a structure permit PUBLIC setting that overrides or ignores plot permission setting and allows any to use.

Wouldn't that be simplest solution?


Smaug

[Zorbin]

To make this real easy why not add a structure permit PUBLIC setting that overrides or ignores plot permission setting and allows any to use.

Wouldn't that be simplest solution?


Smaug

you wouldn't want to know what could happen if you add an override/ignore of plot settings. plots foul up now and then. what would you do when/if it fouls up and everything defaulted to allow all, including silos and GH's?. because you chose to ignore/overide plot setting?

[Smaug]

That can hapen now, I've had plot permissions going to allow all from friends only setting. Hopefully devs would be extra careful coding it.


Smaug

[Zorbin]

That can hapen now, I've had plot permissions going to allow all from friends only setting. Hopefully devs would be extra careful coding it.


Smaug

so far i've only ever seen a plot default back to 1 of 2 settings. locked if on friends list setting, or deny all if on allow all setting

[Northwind]

...
...but as per your earlier statement "we cannot have on a plot both Public and Friends structures NOR Friends and Guild structures. Which is a rather harsh limitation. " the guild setting is still usable, just need to add all guild members to the list. it will still keep normal everyday friends from accessing guild only structures, and allow the guild members in. otherwise, their is no real purpose to be using the friends only setting.

Ah, I see.
But adding guild members to the friends list kinda invalidates the Guild setting completely, isn't it? Cause a guildie still need to be on the list to have access.
It's exactly like setting the Plot to Friends and Silo to Open. Everyone that need access, guildie or not, have to be on that list.
That's why i said that, with Friends set, you cannot have a silo open to several friends and another silo open to the entire guild.
And also you cannot have a silo open to several friends and another silo open to everyone (that's for plot setting: Allow All).

I do believe if you set plot to friends and structure to guild only you have to be BOTH to access. A guild mate not in the friends list cannot access nor can someone in the friends list but not a guild mate.

Its meet both or don't have access. Maybe I'm wrong but its the way seems to work for me.

Smaug

Hmm, have to kick northpole out of the guild and retest it.
I only did the tests with both toons in the same guild.
But it makes no sense to me. Again, Friends list should be enough as a limiting factor.
At best this setting should allow both guildies and friends list - a "limited public" setting.

[Zorbin]

no, if it bypassed the friends list setting to allow guild member "not" in list, then friends list would have been invalidated, since your setting entire plot to friends, anyone and every one needs to be on it for any access. be it guild or normal friends