On Personal Investment

[Steelclaw]

Right now, a person can create a free or trial account and have access to the majority of Istaria within a few minutes of loading their character. While in the spirit of being open, this arrangement leads to situations that degrade the play experience, both for the above person and other players.

Consider the following example situations:

Situation 1: The person may be a new player and completely skip all of the introductory content, go to New Trismus, and get frustrated from not being able to do anything. The frustrated new player then irritates other players by asking fundamental questions that would have been answered, had the player at least gone through the first few minutes of the tutorials.

Situation 2: The person has no interest in actually playing Istaria. They want to cause trouble by being a pest to other players or spamming. Account banned? No problem. Make another!

Situation 3: The person wants everyone else to play their character. They don't want to do anything for themselves -- someone else kills the mobs, leads them around on their quests, makes their items, fights the epic mobs.... Then the person gets bored and leaves!

I have seen variations of these situations come up in the forum, in support tickets, rants from other players, and personal observation. However, I'm not sure how big of a problem this is, so I won't say it's an emergency that we need to fix immediately. Nonetheless, I have given it some thought, and would like to have a discussion on addressing these situations, or at least containing their damage.

I think that all of these situations stem from a lack of personal investment in the player's character. This investment may be emotional; social; financial; or at the very least, time. By not forcing a player to make an initial investment, the player has no commitment to their character or Istaria, and behaves accordingly.

This is part of a larger phenomenon that extends to just about everything that's “free”. Free things usually have no value, and are thus treated accordingly. Consider a simple pen, for example. If you had to buy the pen from the store, you're probably going to make sure you don't forget it. If someone borrows your pen, you'll make sure they don't walk off with it. Now, if you acquired that pen for free, say, it was promotional swag, you would be much less inclined to care if someone walked off with it, even though it was still “your pen”.

So, back to Istaria. In the interest of creating some form of personal investment, I make the following proposal that effectively restricts new characters to their respective starting island until the player demonstrates an effort to commit to playing:

1. Flag the New Trismus destination pad to require attunement.

2. Create a very short quest to attune a character to the New Trismus destination pad.

3. The quest in (2) requires a token to complete.

4. The character may receive the token in (3) in one of two ways:

4a. The token is given to the character upon completion of either the adventure or craft (or both?) tutorial quest lines.

4b. The token is created by someone else through a mildly time-consuming process (say, on the order of creating a cargo disk) and traded to the character.

Thus, in order to get off the starting island, a player must either run their character through a tutorial quest line (something they should do anyway, since it does teach the fundamentals); or get sponsored by another, established player.

Note that this proposal may also involve adjusting or redoing the tutorials to make them more fun and less degrading. That said, the actual content of the tutorials is off the table for this discussion -- assume for the moment that we'll fix them.

So, I open the floor to a discussion of the above proposal, and whether the frequency or severity of the example scenarios warrants any sort of action to begin with.

I know this can be a sensitive subject, so please, try to stay on topic and keep it civil -- don't accuse other players of misconduct. If your post mentions another player, character, or guild; or indirect reference to another player, character, or guild; you're probably accusing someone of misconduct. Please PM me with your anecdote if you feel that it cannot be presented within this guideline.

[Dracillion]

Not a sensitive subject at all, it's a method to eliminate the trolls. I mean, it's reminiscent of Battle.net or any other largely free online community where there's no repercussion or true penalty to losing an account, especially one that doesn't even require a form of card or other verification.

All that said, I find that for the most part at least on Chaos people know what they expect when they land in NT. There's more than just free accounts that is problematic there. It would be nice to add some weeding out process though, perhaps even disallowing joining of channels or certain chat features until those NT attunement quests were finished. I believe though, that if you have a current subscription, that this attunement quest should not be required. It would be annoying running mules or plot holders through all of those quests. The token idea is great for this implementation.

[Guaran]

Excellent idea, at least as far as free accounts go.

And not too much problem to sidestep for established players with new alts with the craftable token.

An alternate way to attune should be provided for existing players with toons already off spirit isle/skalkaar, such as a gatekeeper in new trismus and few more on lesser aradoth. Just use existing gatekeepers in kion and sslanis, add a link to attune to new trismus. Maybe one on genevia too.

Or, just make the teleporter to get off spirit isle/skalkaar the only one which requires the quest/token before it can be used, but the rings in say genevia or dalimond can still port someone to new trismus in any case.

[Kyala]

I can relate to the situation above quite well, and I like the suggestions put forward already. I had always thought it would be nice to have some sort of block on that portal to New Trismus until that player completed their quests to at least guide them along on the basics. Perhaps something like the assessors in New Trismus? The adventure NPC and craft NPC in Skalkaar can each give out a token upon the completion of their tasks, and those two tokens can be used in a quest to attune to New Trismus.

A second idea (but possibly far more tedious) is to copy the example of Eastern Outpost. That is, you cannot attune to New Trismus until you reach a certain level in your school. The new player could be told, via chat, that they should spend some time working on given tasks there, then further time on combat. Maybe up to..Adv (7-8)? Just a thought.

The token idea, I'm not totally sure. It has it's benefits no doubt (such as for alts), but, it also has the ability to completely nullify the idea in the first place. I have a feeling someone eventually will just hand them out. *Shrugs her wings*

Regardless, I'm glad to see some thought has been put forward in relation to the quiet, and not so quiet, issues many have been having about 'a new player'.

[terrox]

AS A FREE ACCOUNT MEMBER I take offense to some of these comments .. I started over 4 years ago and played solo without logging into chats or groups for a year and a half . this problem is also used by paying accounts members . I finished multiple adventure and crafting classes over 10 before I even thought about leaving New Trismus . This is just way I like to play . i like to be self sufficient .There are others like me that are free account members and respect Istaria more than some paying account members

[Malicore]

i'll tell you where the real problem lies, and it's not the new/free accounts. place the blame on the vets that help plvl them. they can just instruct the player to start at the beginning and get all info needed from the npc's during their training. there's always ignore for the new players that are becoming a nuisance.

as i see it, it's not the general players that are free. it's more the ones that make dragons (which are paid accounts). so lets not drop the dime on "free" accounts being the problem. but they should be required to to do all quests on starter island before being "given" access to the teleporter to NT. that i agree with. after that, the rest are the vets that go and help them level.

guiding them is one thing, but plvling is another

[Northwind]

My limited (limited as in only 20 months of playing) experience with new players on Order shard point to the fact that almost all annoyances are coming from dragons on trial accounts and very few from free accounts.
Implementing 30 days timer for RoP was a good measure and I also like some of the ideas presented by Steelclaw.

[Azath]

I like the idea very much!
Players who can create tokens should only be giving them to alts, and not to a new player really, but as Kyala said:
"The token idea, I'm not totally sure. It has it's benefits no doubt (such as for alts), but, it also has the ability to completely nullify the idea in the first place. I have a feeling someone eventually will just hand them out. *Shrugs her wings*"
It's inevitable there'll be someone. Personally, i don't think tokens should be craftable. It doesn't take long to complete the skalkaar/spirit isle quests.
By needing to attune it's getting rid of one problem anyway.

[Arzel Rashemi]

I do like that idea at least 70% of the way, and I know a number of other FTP games I play require you to finish off the all of the tutorial stages before letting you into the greater world at large. The major downside to using this, and the reason I really find it difficult to give it a 100% agreeance, is that if you are a veteran player, every time you start a new character you have to go through a very long set of quests, even tho you know the system and you know what you need to do already. That is a repeatativeness that would put me off and prevent me from making new toons and exploring the other races the game has to offer.

Also I don't think that doing this will actually break the cycle that is going on to create the issue. Problems 1, 2, and 3 are not limited to free accounts. I see them mostly in paid accounts. I actually have to agree with North and terrox's points. I've been on order shard for several years and every one of the problems I've come across that are mentioned in the OP, are actually players who have dragons and are on paid accounts. I've never run across a biped where I have had the problems the OP mentions. The problem is caused as much by the system set up for dragons ascention rights as it is the other players in the community feeding and enabling that problem.

The players who don't appreciate the time or value that go into these things, get powerleveled and carried through their RoP/ARoP rites from the point of character creation at NT/Kion all the way through to ARoP. The problem does start at NT/Kion where the player gets carried and PL'd by older players, and by not doing it themselves what gets set in place of a sense of pride in personal achievement and knowledge, is instead a sense of entitlement.

They get carried through their RoP by other dragons at a adventure levels that do not make it possible for them to even hit, much less survive a hit, from the level 40 mobs needed. Not to mention the crafting aspect of it which really requires the hatchling to be at around level 45 to do for themselves. That is as much the system's fault because dragons are allowed to start their RoP at level 30/30 when really the levels required to be effective at it, are about 10 to 20 higher. But in being carried through like this, the player learns nothing except how to gain abilities and stats quickly for little to no effort on their part.

The problem I see too is that because of being given everything, the players gain no knowledge of the system or how things work. It is just given to them with no explaination or information provided by those aiding them, and on the situation marches through to the finish like this. Then they get frustrated and it leads to situation 2 in the OP because of a knock on effect.

That knock on effect being that the free aid and handouts are all these players know. They've been built up on this idea that they don't need to give any effort for the achievement of greater abilities, stats, and items. They just need to ask, or demand, or create enough drama and someone will fold and give it to them. So if presented with the need to give effort or time on their part to achieve something, they get frustrated and severely impatient. If there is an easier way than time and effort, then it is understandable why they will find it and take it, as this has been the result of what these players have learned.

And then of course this all plays a massive part when it comes to doing the ARoP because often times these players lack something essential to it. A really good knowledge of how to use their character to its fullest effect in combat and in crafting. If the player lacks this information, then it is no wonder they would fail so badly at doing the things required for their ARoP on their own, and get frustrated and create problems until they are again by being lead through it by others.

Of course then the cycle goes on and on, as the players then defends others on their right of entitlement to the easiest path possible to the end goal, regardless of what methods are used to accomplish that. Because they got it that way, and that is the only way they know how to do things, so it is the right way in their view. They don't learn a different way. All in all, the problems do occur at the very start and continue on to the end, but the real conundrum is how to break the cycle. The game mechanics are to blame for a portion of it, but it is as much the rest of the players that enable the problem. It doesn't matter whether the account is paid, free, or trial, as long as this cycle is allowed to continue you will run into the problems the OP lists.

[Arzel Rashemi]

Oh, and as a side thought. As much as I do like the idea of keeping new players on the training isles, perhaps keeping the veteran players off of them also, may do alot to address the overall issue as well.

[Tondargaet_Glit]

As a fairly new player (~3-4 months?), I agree that a player shouldn't be allowed to gate to NT until they've completed the tutorial; there does need to be some way around this, as well, for veteran players creating an "alt," as long as they can also get the various formula that are given during the tutorials (no idea if that's already the case!).

Also agree that the "problem" isn't just with players asking/demanding to be power-leveled, but, it's also with veteran players who are quite happy to do so. In fact, while I've never asked for that sort of help, I've had numerous adult and ancient dragons offer to power-level Tondargaet....I politely declined each offer. No way to keep that from happening, of course.

[Kyala]

Aye, more pretty good points raised. And in no case did I mean offence, sorry to those who took it. On the dragon side of things, there really is some spot along their line that needs to be dealt with, something to turn away thoughts of going straight for 30/25 or whatever it is. And yes, I do notice a large amounts of them tend to be the 'troublemakers' in some way.. But, trying to keep it in focus, I understand that veterans wouldn't obviously want to replay all those tutorials. I myself have made many and in turn, finished them again. No fun task mind you hehe.

Some way to at least guide the newer player towards learning the steps would be fantastic. I appreciate the fact that some would like to head straight to the village to simply just converse, not too pushed on advancing. But for those that skip it, then raise all these questions to those who are now tired of responding..it's not good. Even a sign placed in front of the Skal -> NT pad pointing them to Kerian might just help a little more.

*Chuckles* I suppose..this thread is more suited to the new dragon player, then the ped player. I can agree with a previous post, that I myself never had an issue with a ped, save for a few rare encounters.

[Guaran]

...Players who can create tokens should only be giving them to alts, and not to a new player really, but as Kyala said: "The token idea, I'm not totally sure. It has it's benefits no doubt (such as for alts), but, it also has the ability to completely nullify the idea in the first place. I have a feeling someone eventually will just hand them out. *Shrugs her wings*"
It's inevitable there'll be someone. ...

True. Maybe we should just scrap the token portion of the idea. The vet's can deal with 30 minutes of killing and crafting on spirit isle/skalkaar if we make a new toon. It isn't going to kill us. (I agree this change should affect ALL accounts... not just free or trial).

...The problem is caused as much by the system set up for dragons ascention rights as it is the other players in the community feeding and enabling that problem.

The players who don't appreciate the time or value that go into these things, get powerleveled and carried through their RoP/ARoP rites from the point of character creation at NT/Kion all the way through to ARoP. The problem does start at NT/Kion where the player gets carried and PL'd by older players, and by not doing it themselves what gets set in place of a sense of pride in personal achievement and knowledge, is instead a sense of entitlement.

They get carried through their RoP by other dragons at a adventure levels that do not make it possible for them to even hit, much less survive a hit, from the level 40 mobs needed. Not to mention the crafting aspect of it which really requires the hatchling to be at around level 45 to do for themselves. That is as much the system's fault because dragons are allowed to start their RoP at level 30/30 when really the levels required to be effective at it, are about 10 to 20 higher. But in being carried through like this, the player learns nothing except how to gain abilities and stats quickly for little to no effort on their part.

The problem I see too is that because of being given everything, the players gain no knowledge of the system or how things work. It is just given to them with no explaination or information provided by those aiding them, and on the situation marches through to the finish like this. Then they get frustrated and it leads to situation 2 in the OP because of a knock on effect.

That knock on effect being that the free aid and handouts are all these players know. They've been built up on this idea that they don't need to give any effort for the achievement of greater abilities, stats, and items. They just need to ask, or demand, or create enough drama and someone will fold and give it to them. So if presented with the need to give effort or time on their part to achieve something, they get frustrated and severely impatient. If there is an easier way than time and effort, then it is understandable why they will find it and take it, as this has been the result of what these players have learned... Of course then the cycle goes on and on...

Agree.

Years ago, likely in multiple threads, I have argued for the Rop requirements to be raised. At 30/20 they cannot do it by themselves at all. And they aren't doing it with other players all doing rop for the first time (like initially was happening when rop was new), where a large enough group of hatchies can actually manage some of the hunts. The new player base is too thin for that, and as mentioned above, there are players who will just PL them through it. Perhaps consideration is now warranted for some increases on the starting requirements for Rop. 40/30 seems reasonable.

I myself will not PL anyone, my guild learned this the hard way back in early 2005. We powerleveled a new player as healer to 100, thinking that then should would be able to help herself better as well as come along on hunts and heal, yet she ended up quitting once we didn't provide t5 teched out gear for her (this was when t5 comps as well as the techs themselves were fairly hard to get). We decided right then no more PL'ing new players. I charge for just about everything, not because I need the coin, but because I firmly believe people need to work for the things I provide them. Giving things away is the worst thing you can do for a new player. They are furnished with refurbished gear on new trismus, even cargo disks. We can help them plenty well enough by answering questions in new player assistance channel, and making sure NT connie has the common essentials they need such as cargo disks and tools. Everything else in already there on a vendor (refurb armor and the spell vendor).

I don't know what can be done to get this into the heads of some of the other vets...

[Tamianth]

Oh, I really shouldnt dip my toe in here, I will start a riot if I voice my own opinions on this whole subject. But suffice to say, I agree wholeheartedly that the problem is NOT with the free ped accounts, it rests totally with (usually trial, not paying) dragon accounts. In all my many years playing, I can count the number of times Ive come across "problem" ped chars on the fingers of one hand - yet could never begin to count how many issues there have been with dragons. Hatchlings rushing through Skalkaar, not even looking at the tutorials, arriving in NT to stand and DEMAND and scream and stamp feet until an adult/ancient agrees to do everything for them......they disguise this under wanting "parents", but we all know, they just want to be powerlvlled. - and before the screams start, I dont doubt there are a few who do want the whole roleplaying family thing, but you have to agree, most just want others to do it all for them. And the problem isnt just with the demanding hatchlings, it also lies firmly at the door of those adults and ancients (undoubtedly powerlvlled themselves), who
encourage this behaviour by waiting at the arrival pad in Skalkaar and offering their services as powerlvllers. Hell, there are whole guilds who are reknown for this.

The other day, there was a lvl 100 adult, standing in NT begging for someone to tell them WHERE TO START THEIR ABILITY QUESTS. Yes, I meant the caps - this "player" was a lvl 100 ADULT wanting to start their AROP, who had never done ONE SINGLE ability quest. I was beyond speechless. But it just demonstrated the way the game has headed over the past couple of years. I for one would truly welcome ANY way of having this changed and improved, so that people somehow have to develop some sort of pride in their own chars, because they have to actually PLAY the game themselves, not have others do it all for them, be it in the form of powerlvlling them by doing all their hunting/crafting for them, or by force-feeding them trophies so that they arrive at lvl 100 without ever actually killing a mob themselves.

[Chasing]

True. Maybe we should just scrap the token portion of the idea. The vet's can deal with 30 minutes of killing and crafting on spirit isle/skalkaar if we make a new toon. It isn't going to kill us. (I agree this change should affect ALL accounts... not just free or trial).

Agree with above (and also Arzel's comments)

In terms of dragons;
I'm in the same camp that the requirements should be higher (the burnout/powerlvling factor needs to be slowed down)

ROP i'd suggest regardless of Lunus or Helian a player must be 40 craft/adv to be able to finish it (or even 50/50). Doesn't matter what level they start at, as long as they have to achieve something by themselves (which the craft element would force).

AROP drives me nuts. Reason is that there is no craft requirement. From my point of view, if you want to be an ancient dragon, then you should be skilled in adventure and in craft. The craftable items required in the arop you should be capable of making yourself. If I see a Level 100 dragon that is only 30 craft asking for something T5/T6, then I will not help them.

Further point, if ability quests have not been completed (and the tempered scale quests), then a player should not be able to start the rop (i think arop already has this restriction but only on adv)

[jerk-o]

When it comes to the requirements for RoP, I'd rather have them be 250k hoard minimum, and complete the following quests: Gold Rage 4, Instant Heal 4, Primal Mastery 4, Accurate Breath 4, Dimensional Pocket 4 and possibly the level 40 mastery quests such as Quarrying Mastery 4. Having those quests required means that the person will be level 40+ in adventuring and crafting, and it means that they can't have somebody just powerleveling them with trophies.

[Malicore]

as for tokens on leaving areas, they should not be player made. they should only be given by NPC's after quests are completed in that region. in that respect, keep the token idea open.

this referring to the starter and NT islands only.

[Azath]

...But suffice to say, I agree wholeheartedly that the problem is NOT with the free ped accounts, it rests totally with (usually trial, not paying) dragon accounts...Hatchlings rushing through Skalkaar, not even looking at the tutorials, arriving in NT to stand and DEMAND and scream and stamp feet until an adult/ancient agrees to do everything for them......they disguise this under wanting "parents", but we all know, they just want to be powerlvlled. - and before the screams start, I dont doubt there are a few who do want the whole roleplaying family thing, but you have to agree, most just want others to do it all for them. And the problem isnt just with the demanding hatchlings, it also lies firmly at the door of those adults and ancients (undoubtedly powerlvlled themselves), who
encourage this behaviour by waiting at the arrival pad in Skalkaar and offering their services as powerlvllers. Hell, there are whole guilds who are reknown for this.

Can't tell you how many times i've had people whine and have a hissy fit after they've sent a tell to me, begging to be power leveled and obviously been rejected. I can even name a guild off the top of my head usually seen in ED doing, guess what! Even considering writing a paragraph or two on why "traditional" leveling is the best way and making it a hotkey so when people do ask, press it and dealt with.
I shan't keep banging on about examples and such here. I will instead ask:
How can we stop/lessen this? How do steelclaw's suggestions prevent problems?
As for steelclaw's suggestions, already those annoying little hatchlings who whine and ask for powerleveling or families just so they can get dragged along are mostly ruled out. Not only that, but, experienced players who drag their alts acorss skalkaar and straight to ED and end up with hatchlings at lv100/0...By -forcing- them to do the tutorials, hopefully they learn it's not just laying back while someone else plays for you. This also means that people who sit at the shrines and offer to drag new players across the game are detered because well, the players who they -would- drag across, now must complete the tutorial to get on with the game, so they can't be dragged otherwise it'd compromise their play experience completely.

Personally, i'd love more reinforcement on the "safe" path to the fyakkis to make sure that only high level players can get there. By not allowing hatchlings to powerlevel, hopefully it will have gotten into their minds that leveling properly is the best way before they can fly, thus, they wouldn't powerlevel after they fly and teach people that powerleveling is not that way. Increasing the rite requirements also contributes to this - if they must do quests before they can do the rites, and increased level, more time to learn how to level properly, more time to know why leveling properly is good. Also, the skalkaar quests for dragons -- why do bipeds need to use abilites, and dragons not? This will also help as they must learn to use abilities and see why they're good to use (so they'll be willing to find more - i.e. do the quests) aswell as making it hard to be dragged acorss skalkaar. Perhaps in the second skalkaar quest - looting a grulet tusk, maybe you need to use bite? or breath of fire? on it, for the quest to advance. Maybe when killing the grass beetles you need to use silver strike at least twice or three times?

[Calyndrell]

The initial quests are quite tedious after the first time. Perhaps if it's possible have the account be flagged upon completion of the tutorial so as not to force alts to repeat the process.

As for the rop requirements I stand whole heartedly by the idea of rising the adventure rating or force players to complete all level 40 adventure to start it and all level 50 to actually ascend.

Just my ideas.

[Arzel Rashemi]

This also means that people who sit at the shrines and offer to drag new players across the game are detered because well, the players who they -would- drag across, now must complete the tutorial to get on with the game, so they can't be dragged otherwise it'd compromise their play experience completely.

True. Even better to strengthen that detterent would be if the veterans and other players were kept out of the tutorial areas such as NT, spirit isle, and skalkarr as well. Then it would make it so there can be no interference at all, no pre-plans made for later for being dragged across the game to be PL'd and carried after the hatchling/biped has left the tutorial area. It literally would be up to the player from the start to learn the basics of self dependance and achievment with no interference.

Then you have the issue of the chats. I know this one may be a touchy subject too, but in more than a few games, until you have finished the tutorial areas you aren't allowed to speak in world chats or in some cases join them. This would further deter any who would whisk the new toon/player to PL and carry them as well. It would also keep would be trolls at bay as well from bothering the community at large and creating drama on trial/free accounts.