On Personal Investment

[Machaeon]

As I recall, the last time I did a new character, the quests on the islands only got you to level 3 or four.

I don't think grinding on the new islands is a good idea...

As a player with a good-sized-handful of alts (biped and dragon) I can say I've never had a problem getting them to about lvl 6 on the starting islands before moving on. All you have to do is kill a few more mobs or create a few more items than the quest asks for before you turn it in. I agree... Spirit Isle and Skalaar are no place to grind for any school, but with the time it takes to get to level 5 or 6 or so it's not quite gotten into the realm of grinding. I think it would be a great idea to implement a level requirement of let's say level 5 for a craft school and an adventure school to leave Skalaar or Spirit Isle. Even if you don't complete the tutorial quests, a vet could easily raise a new character to that level within an hour.

1. Make the tutorials user friendly and engaging. Keep each page short and sweet. A new player does not want to read a wall of text, they want to jump into the game. Use visuals!! A picture speaks a thousand words.

Example: Welcome to Spirit Isle *insert new player's name*! Please choose what you would like to learn:

Adventure *insert a picture of a character fighting a mob* - please speak to *insert NPC's name and a picture of that NPC* to choose your class and get details about it.

Crafting *insert a picture of a character building something* - please speak to *insert NPC's name and picture* to choose your class and get details about it.

If they choose to get more details about a class GIVE THEM PICTURES!! Fire their imagination. Make them WANT to play. Show them a fancy outfit or a cool looking weapon. Give them the idea, the goal, and the knowledge, right from the start that they can achieve this themselves.

Choosing one of these should point the player in the direction of the NPC and bring them past NPCs that are actually doing what the player has chosen. Watching a half-giant doing battle with a skeleton warrier or seeing a dwarf mining ore and making tools is going to capture their interest; even if it's nothing the player can interact with at this point, just something to give them a visual idea of gameplay and draw them into game interaction. Then the trainer they need to speak to should be right there - not half-way around the island.

I agree with Holth, the tutorials are not all that engaging. Back when I first started on Skalaar I got extremely frustrated because the tutorials will point you in the right direction (usually) but they don't tell a new player who has no idea about how the game mechanics work what they need to know. I ended up going on to find a youtube tutorial for Skalaar because I just couldn't figure out what the NPC was telling me to do. The crafting system in particular always seems to be a stumbling block with many of the new players I've encountered. Several times I've checked New Player or Marketplace to find a new player screaming their head off about not understanding how the crafting system works.
If you add in some sort of visual aid somewhere to help new players understand the following: how to add an ability to hotkeys, how to edit a hotkey, how to scribe a formula and craft an item, what tools/abilities/machines they need to use and what they look like, how to set your keybindings, and a basic set of commands like: /groupinvite, /tell, /group, /chatinvite, /selectnearestenemey, /help. This could be done in a short opening clip when a new account creates their first character and sends them in-game for the first time. Any subsequent logins or characters would skip this and head straight to the game.

What I think is most important for new players is knowing how to find your own information for what you need, if that knowledge is provided right from the get-go they'll be less likely to pester others when they can't or don't want to figure out how something works.

[LOVWYRM]

(sorry steelclaw for further derailing)

I said it before and will say it again: Our game is too demanding at the first 30 lvl.
We can`t hold new playwes-(while we can`t get rid of vets^^)
I have no idea why- they do not talk much-simply leave.
They do not post here or write to devs (as far as I know).
I have no idea why exactly- and how to solve this.
I think dragons have it a bit more easier-cause there is always a wing or claw- willing to help a newborn dragon.
Green-horned bipeds are left alone- with all the question, the weakness and the dataoverload concerning crafting and multiclassing.
As said- I`m clueless.
Maybe we should make a "talk to the team" where devs ask very precise questions.
Maybe that could help with anylysis- and make us go new ways.

Btw- similar prob goes for returning players (more than 3 years).
They ask and complain for a wile- and leave again.
Just what I observed- and my 2 cent (again- sry Amon^^)

[AmonGwareth]

Just what I observed- and my 2 cent (again- sry Amon^^)

No need to be sorry for speaking the truth. The game has a very steep learning curve, perhaps not as steep as Eve Online, but much much steeper than WoW or EQ2 or many MMOs. The game is not nearly as polished as newer (and larger) MMOs, particularly in the area of UI and interaction with new players. The tutorial is sadly about as interactive as we can get.

The game is not WoW or EQ2 or Rift or any of those and I think people come into it expecting that. The game is 10 years old (older if you count development time) and I think people are less forgiving for the most part of older games. WoW is the exception, but its also had billions of dollars to spend on upgrades throughout the years.

I don't have stats for what types of players stick around longer, Dragons or bipeds, but that might be interesting to see. I often wonder if the method by which players choose schools is a problem (in most MMOs you choose up front during character creation) that leads to retention or introduction issues. The tutorials are meant to attempt to cater to this flexibility and that likely causes some issues, confusion, etc. Add to that the fact that people rarely read text in MMOs and expect MMOs to work like most others and you would definitely run into issues (especially since Istaria came before most MMOs on the market).

Anyway, we definitely would take suggestions and feedback on the tutorial to attempt to improve the new player experience.

[Terao]

As I've raised a dragon not long ago from lvl 1 to 100, dragons have so many ability quests - the good thing is you always get a reward that makes your dragon stronger, this gave me a lot of motivation doing all those quests. Next to the dragon related quests I've done all quests I know off from New Trismus (tier 1) up to the doom (tier 6). Doing all the quests gave the exp to level up the dragons, only very few adventure levels I needed to grind.

This may be one of the problems with bipeds. They have only very few adventure school related quests, you need to grind a lot more to grow up. Bipeds need a lot more equipement, dragons "only" have 10 scales and a claw. I think generally there needs to be much more starting quests for the first 30 lvls for bipeds, for craft and adventure schools, giving exp and useful rewards helping to get started.

The problem is you need to know the quests, you need to know on which level you can start them and which NPC gives the quest and so on. As a experienced player it was easy for me, but new players need much more advise and information, the wikia often does not help because of missing information about level requirements and a lot of quests are missing on the wikia. A complete list of quests which lists requirements of school, race and level and where it starts would really be a great help, a good solution would be to make this a part of the quest window.

In my opinion there needs to more information, more advise, more useful rewards - at least for the first 30 levels to help the new players finding their way and to lower the learning curve a bit.

[hallucin8]

The game has a very steep learning curve...

I think the point I've selected there is something of a debate. At the basic level, for a new player selecting a base adventure school and crafting school, and who wishes to continue with these schools without multiclassing, they are probably adequately catered for with the limitations we have. It would be fantastic if tutorials could have pictures embedded in the chat windows, and subsequently available at a moments notice via the orb menu. That way, if someone forgets, they just select "Lumbering tutorial" which would then walk them through collecting raw wood (bark?) and turning it into boards and finally a wood tool (with the option to simply close the window once they've found the information they were after). Many of the tutorials would share procedures, for example, making a wood tool would share similar steps to making wood weapons, and metal tools/weapons would share steps with, well, anything else metal related.

If someone can take the time to go through the tutorials and gets a bit lucky along the way (ie. nothing going wrong or not getting lost), then they will usually get enough experience, coin and hopefully knowledge to move into lvl20+ and start exploring.

I think something we might have lost sight of is, with a 'normal' (non-MMO)RPG, the base schools are usually the easier to start, and you won't get access to Prestige schools until much later. Sometimes Mage schools will be more difficult at the start, but get much easier towards the end. This feature is even more evident with our Prestige schools, especially given the rating hit. Someone who's invested 20hours+ into getting 2 (or more) base schools to 20, to then try and move onto a prestige school who now has a rating of 25+, always has a huge problem continuing. No one wants to hit such a huge barrier so early in the progression.

I think part of the problem for peds is that we don't have a lot of use unless we've multiclassed, yet the possibility of doing so, especially earlier on, can be extremely difficult. Something that might help would be to make the 'drop adv school' quest immensely simpler, ensure that one would not have to keep the base schools, and ensure that the prestige schools get the masterable base school abilities. I have to say, the way the schools are setup, with the base schools, hybrid schools and prestige schools, it really puts some of the prestige schools simply out of reach. Who in their right mind would want to grind out Cleric, Mage, Spiritist and Druid... just to take Shaman?!? Shaman can be a really fun school, but if you had to get 4 schools to lvl 10-20 before you could even start it... your rating is shot and you've probably already burnt out from grinding all those low level mobs with almost no return for your efforts.

Dragons certainly get the easy end of the leveling stick. Just keep going with all the quests you have... bam 100 Now, I know this is not the actual case, but it's not that far from the truth. Putting in a ton of quests for peds to get to lvl 100 is not the answer, of course... but you need both the stick and the carrot...

Anyway, not sure how on topic this still is, but hopefully you get the point about personal investment. You want to get out what you put in.

Happy huntings all, see yas in Istaria!

[hallucin8]

Perhaps further to my comment about prestige schools... Why not simply make them all available from the start? Or lower the requirements so that no school need be leveled beyond 10 (ie skill req 100)? Sure would let more players explore the many mutliclassing possibilities.

[Guaran]

Perhaps further to my comment about prestige schools... Why not simply make them all available from the start? Or lower the requirements so that no school need be leveled beyond 10 (ie skill req 100)? Sure would let more players explore the many mutliclassing possibilities.

I do not agree that dropping schools should be easier.. Anyone who plays long enough will want those schools back, and regret deleting them.

Lowering the start requirements to 10, on the surface, sounds like a good idea. This would affect the skills/level though, for example Reaver requires 20 warrior, 20 spiritist to join (or something close to that). Spiritist gets 10 spirit/level, reaver only gets 7. So a level 100 reaver with 20 base spiritist levels, ends up with 760 spirit skill (20x10 + 80x7), which isn't enough for t4 spells without some training points. Same is true for 2hand slash skill. If they can join reaver at 10, and only have 10 warrior, 10 spiritist, they would only get (10x10 +90x7) 730 spirit skill. I guess 30 skill isn't that huge of a difference. But a serious reaver would want to go back and take spiritist and warrior to 100, to raise spirit and 2 hand slash from 730 to 1000.

Ultimately, the players are better off taking one base, non-prestige school to 100 first. Then they have decent HP, Armor use, Strength, Power, weapon and/or spell skills, etc.. which make leveling the next school easier. Changing when they can join the prestige school, just ultimately gives them a weaker school to try and level in, and then they get frustrated anyway. A level 80 reaver who joined it at 10, would only have 590 base 2 hand slash. Then they will be whining about not being able to equip t5 swords (they would still be in the skill range for t3 swords), and it's just a whole different mess. Same story for equipping plate armor.

Better to keep the prestige schools as they are imho.

[hallucin8]

Unfortunately, Guaran, while your argument had me worried at first, I checked the numbers and I think you might want to as well Reaver actually gets 10 2hs and 8 spirit per level, and as you said I really don't think anyone would obviously notice a difference of 30 skill points at lvl 100. However, there maybe a school who would noticeable suffer from starting at 10 rather that 20, so perhaps slight adjustments on a case by case basis could be achieved. No doubt a 'serious' Reaver would want a whole raft of schools at 100, but that's a bit of a way off for newbies. We all really want everyone to keep having fun and wanting to keep playing, but if they don't even get as far as the first school, the we've lost them anyway

[Calyndrell]

Unfortunately, Guaran, while your argument had me worried at first, I checked the numbers and I think you might want to as well Reaver actually gets 10 2hs and 8 spirit per level, and as you said I really don't think anyone would obviously notice a difference of 30 skill points at lvl 100. However, there maybe a school who would noticeable suffer from starting at 10 rather that 20, so perhaps slight adjustments on a case by case basis could be achieved. No doubt a 'serious' Reaver would want a whole raft of schools at 100, but that's a bit of a way off for newbies. We all really want everyone to keep having fun and wanting to keep playing, but if they don't even get as far as the first school, the we've lost them anyway

Yep example battle mage would suffer massively

[hallucin8]

Yep example battle mage would suffer massively

Battlemage probably already suffers massively by only getting 8/lvl in most skills. But by starting it 10 levels earlier, when at lvl 100, skills would be reduced by at most 20 points and I couldn't say one way or another if you would honestly notice that. In hindsight, I hadn't even thought too much about the skill changes, and I couldn't support any change that would negatively impact on anyone. But a way to make the prestige schools more accessible should to be investigated, I think. I find it difficult to advertise such wonderful schools and mutliclassing options when it requires so much time to even explore those options in-game.

[hallucin8]

To late to edit: but if, in the case of battlemage, that meant they could no longer wear t5 armor, then yes they would massively notice that sucks to be pure btlm

[Guaran]

Hmm, I remember leveling Reaver, and it has been many years... But I am pretty sure it got 7 spirit, the 2hs I can't recall. I do know that I leveled warrior and then later berserker to max out 2hs skill for reaver.

But, lets say those numbers are right, 8 spirit/level. at level 100, starting at 10, you would have only 820 spirit skill, only enough for the t5 regular spirit bolt. Nothing else in the t5 range would be available, and this does jive with what I recall back then. With the school starting at 20, as a level 100 reaver you have 840 base spirit skill. So it's only 20 points.

But remember, the weapon skill, spell skills, armor use, etc. for some of the prestige schools is usually less than a pure school that gains the same skills. So, someone would try out a prestige school and be limited as lvl 100, to tier 4 spells, tier 4 armor, tier 4 weapons.

Of course, even joining it at level 20, the same may be true... in which case I would support letting someone join it at level 10.

I just think it sends the wrong message, to join an elite school (at really low level), but be overall somewhat weak, because they didn't do say warrior and spiritist first...

I just know that I recommend players do one school to 100 before really jumping into multiclassing.

I am all for anything to help improve the new player experience. I am just not convinced that the level you join a prestige school would really help it.

I would say, for the base schools Mage, Warrior, Healer/Cleric, Monk, Druid, should all get some class specific questlines added. Even if they only go to level 30... give them new quests, maybe even a new ability or 2 that is quested for (bring back Spirit of the Monkey for Monk for example). Have the quests be well written, entertaining, with good directions/instructions... This would be the way I would go about improving new player experience.

[AmonGwareth]

Warrior, Mage, Cleric and Scout already have class-specific quest lines to level 10 on New Trismus. And then the larger grouping of classes have class-specific in T2 (Sources of Power for mage schools, Holy Symbols for healer schools, Battlefields for Warrior schools).

[Guaran]

Warrior, Mage, Cleric and Scout already have class-specific quest lines to level 10 on New Trismus. And then the larger grouping of classes have class-specific in T2 (Sources of Power for mage schools, Holy Symbols for healer schools, Battlefields for Warrior schools).

Thanks. That explains why my healer alt has a few t2 quests that went disabled and I wasn't sure why.

What are your thoughts about some additional quests for say warrior, mage, healer/cleric, monk, and maybe druid as well? Say a questline which starts after the level 10 quests are done, which threads along to level 30. with say a new section of the quest opening up every 5 levels. Sort of a mini-epic quest?

I know there are already a lot of good t2 quests.. but those skulks are tough, and the dragons in the chiconis battlefield can overwhelm a new player too. Not suggesting changing those. Just maybe some additional quests that are say about the history of the warrior or something. Something they can solo, that has a story to carry them from level 10 to level 30. and at the conclusion at level 30, they get say spirit of the monkey for monks, spirit of the warrior for warriors (+30 strength passive), Knowledge of Life for the healer/cleric (+30 life passive), Blessing of the Forest for druid (+30 nature passive). Nothing overpowering, but still nice to have. And quests that were fun to do. The npc's giving the quests should always instruct the player to come back in 5 levels for his next piece of training (or mention the level at which he should return to continue).

[LOVWYRM]

Thanks.
I know there are already a lot of good t2 quests.. but those skulks are tough, and the dragons in the chiconis battlefield can overwhelm a new player too. Not suggesting changing those.

Those are a big prob-really- but I do not want them to be changed either.
I know they discouraged some newbies. So I think your ideas are a good solution, Guaran.

[AmonGwareth]

Really the only thing holding more class-specific quests back is time-investment in developing them. Focus has been on quests/changes that benefit a wider number of players - Crystalshaper, Barrier Vale, upcoming T3 revamp, etc.

[Guaran]

Perhaps after those projects are done...

I did say mini-epic quests.. so nothing huge.

Just a series of say 4 or 5 quests for each school at level 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30. Could all start with class trainers in Tazoon. All be about the history of previous (famous?) warriors/monks/druids/healers. First one could just be go around tazoon interviewing/talking to some npc's. Last one could be an exploratory adventure that walks them from mahagra, across the ice, into the tower of sorcery, up to the top, teleport to trandalar, and the gatekeeper there could be the final step. (quest would have triggers that track the progress across the ice, so they actually have to WALK it, and not just teleport and be done).

That's how I would do it

The quest to trandalar could be for one of the schools (Warrior, since there is no "Warrior" tower). The druid one would require a trek to the top of the nature tower. healer/Cleric one a trek to the top of the healer tower (in tazoon desert).. etc. etc. Do a spiritist one where as lvl 30 they get to try and safely make it to the spirit tower in the swamp. That would be a fun quest. And it is totally doable. And it would be exciting and scary for a new player. That was the kind of thing I loved doing on my hatchy when he was in his 20's.. i explored ED, Spiritous Swamp, WD, all over the place.

[Arzel Rashemi]

Does the lack of time to develop quests like these also extend to those player made quests which are submitted?

Just curious. Afterall if we want to see more content and its there, why not use it.

[AmonGwareth]

Does the lack of time to develop quests like these also extend to those player made quests which are submitted?

Just curious. Afterall if we want to see more content and its there, why not use it.

Less time, but it still takes time because even player written quests have to be adapted for the system and then all of the content entry/development done. I've got two rather large player-written quests involving half-giants and trandalar that were submitted a long time ago that I've partially adapted but they have become part of the T3 revamp.

If you have ideas for specific story-lines, please either post them here or send me a message. I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you further.

[Arzel Rashemi]

Thank you very much amon.