T6 Adamantium scales

[Guaran]

(my post mostly copied from another thread: http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...Forms&p=292443 )

It is kinda sad that t6, adamantium, endgame scales are only approximately equal to t5 armor scales.. definitely not superior. At least, it feels that way when using them, and I have noticed you die faster.
Let's do an actual comparison, full t5 vs full t6.
t5 typical melee set, 2 sockets on head + Razor Teeth, 3 sockets on each foreleg, dragon chest techs on chest, I get (self buffed plus some biped buffs):
5% chance Primal Vengeance
5% chance stun
10% chance Vital Defiance
3425 Health
2288 Armor
320 Ethereal Armor
1389 Strength
1054 Dexterity
1079 Power
1114 Focus
1156 Evasion
1079 Magic Evasion
500 Blight Resistance
40 Flame Resistance
1298 Primal
1249 Dragon Breath
1716 Tooth&Claw

Switching to the t6 adamantium set I get
5% chance Primal Vengeance
3475 Health
1903 Armor
250 Ethereal Armor
1444 Strength
1109 Dexterity
1184 Power
1149 Focus
1161 Evasion
1006 Magic Evasion
40 Flame Resistance
1420 Primal
1372 Dragon Breath
1729 Tooth&Claw

Piercing Winds was on all 4 wing scales used in the comparison. The same buffs were on in both sets of readings. The Saris Stone of Friendship was moved into the t6 set to take the reading. Priceless forelegs were socketed, health xtal in one, saris stone of friendship in the other. Priceless Head had Razor Teeth tech.

So the differences when the t6 set is equipped are:
no Eminence Tech (no chance to stun)
no Vital Defiance Tech
+50 Health (+1.4%)
-385 Armor (-16.8%)
-70 Ethereal Armor (-21.9%)
+55 Strength (+4.0%)
+55 Dexterity (+5.2%)
+105 Power (+9.7%)
+35 Focus (+3.0%)
+5 evasion (must come from the dexterity)
-73 magic evasion (-6.3%)
-500 Blight Resistance (no crest of the blackhammer clan tech available)
+122 Primal (+9.4%)
+123 Dragon Breath (+9.8%)
+13 Tooth&claw (0.76%)

So, looking at the numbers, it looks like Primal, Dragon Breath, and Power get about 10% boost. Nice if you are a caster, except losing 17% of your armor means you will still die faster.

Tooth&claw is so close its basically no improvement. 5% for Strength and Dexterity would help, so maybe 5% damage increase there. But you lose 17% armor, still a big deal. Also lose some magic evasion, since there aren't enough sockets to use the darkstaff armor crystals.

The armor loss is really too much. Armor plays a big deal in survivability. Losing 2 of the dragon chest techs means you take even more damage (They are all defensive in nature)... So what could be done to improve these, and make people actually want them?

Allow 3 tech slots on the scales which can take sockets: Chest, Head, Forelegs. Then the dragon techs can all be used, as well as many of these newer xtals we get from quest rewards, such as the darkstaff crystals and Battlemaster's Stone.

Add about 600 more armor across the sets, which is only a net increase of 215 armor, about 9.3%.
Add 350 Health across the sets, which is about 10% increase.

Maybe the gains should be larger yet. Tiers in the game are basically 20% difference between each other (20 levels out of 100). An expected 20% improvement over the prior tier wouldn't be out a line. But at the very minimum, we shouldn't lose stats. The argument that "well there should be a tradeoff" ignores the fact that these should be t6, endgame, the best you can get gear. But really they make you die faster, especially fighting mobs with a lot of health.

******

Thinking more about the apparent buffs to Primal/power/focus... the only reason it appears to be an increase, is because my current scales have none of those techs... If I had a t5 set all teched out for primal, there would likely be the same difference I see now when looking at t&c/str/dex... Therefore, those stats as well should not get overlooked for improvement.

In any case, having same t&c, +5% strength, -17% armor... there's nothing "Epic" or even "T6" about these adamantium scales.

Dev's, can we get some improvements to these?

If you want to make them more rare as a result, that's fair. Give these pieces the same chance to drop that the speed cogs have... (where it takes days to finally get just ONE).

[Calyndrell]

I can't argue with a single thing said here tier6 scales are pretty useless. Please devs make an worth while.

[DragonOfTheFirstDawn]

No agreement here, I agree to all of this. The T6 scales should be improved. Having the same T&C, not worth it, +5% maybe, -17% armor, just no, no.. the gains should be much larger like you said. I've never had a run in with a T6 scale,(glad i haven't be looking for one. would of be disappointed) but the stats look like there from blighted armor not T6.. giving you a boost in something and not giving you a boost in something else.

[Kyala]

As of now I feel that the only real worth to the T6 scales are as a temporary set until one gets their fully teched T5 gear. That is, while waiting to gather all your comps, you can at least have somewhat decent protection and offense. Personally I would like to see an increase to the T6's value. But in doing so, I get the feeling it will drift into that conversation that everyone has had many times over about dragons. Would be difficult seeing as how you have to balance it for the two factions as they are already hybrid, and I doubt adding an extra socket would go down well. Certainly T6 should be an obvious improvement over T5 however.

[Dracillion]

As of now I feel that the only real worth to the T6 scales are as a temporary set until one gets their fully teched T5 gear. That is, while waiting to gather all your comps, you can at least have somewhat decent protection and offense. Personally I would like to see an increase to the T6's value. But in doing so, I get the feeling it will drift into that conversation that everyone has had many times over about dragons. Would be difficult seeing as how you have to balance it for the two factions as they are already hybrid, and I doubt adding an extra socket would go down well. Certainly T6 should be an obvious improvement over T5 however.

That's pretty much it.

The T6 scales do definitely fit the role of a hybrid on-the-fence TNC/Primal dragon though quite nice. (they still suck)

[Terao]

The T6 scales need definitly some love. If I compare the T6 scales with the T6 jewelry - the T6 scales are, forgive me the hards words, they are rubbish. The T6 jewelry is really great and I love to use them for all of my adventure classes for my biped, I don't use any parts of the T6 scales for my dragons, crafted scales are much better.

Just to show the boosts the T6 jewelry gives:
Priceless Ringx2
+60 Power
+60 Focus
+60 Ethereal Armour
+160 Health
(+ one tech)

Priceless Braceletx2
+60 Armor
+160 Health
+60 Dexterity
+60 Strength
(+ one tech)

Priceless Earringx2
+60 Armor
+160 Health
+60 Dexterity
+60 Strength
(+ one tech)

Priceless Necklacex1
+60 Power
+60 Focus
+60 Ethereal Armour
+25 Speed
(+ one tech or jewelry socket)

Bipeds have a large variaty of T6 items: a lot of weapons and the T6 jewelery to chose from. Dragons only have one scale set. Give it some love as you did with the T6 weapons and jewelry and consider to involve three scale sets, one for each playing style: caster, melee and hybrids, I'm sure you would make a lot players happy.

[Guaran]

The T6 scales need definitly some love. If I compare the T6 scales with the T6 jewelry - the T6 scales are, forgive me the hards words, they are rubbish....Give it some love as you did with the T6 weapons and jewelry and consider to involve three scale sets, one for each playing style: caster, melee and hybrids, I'm sure you would make a lot players happy.

If three different sets were made for t6, that would be a great idea. And, it would be quite easy to implement as well. Only the master formula would need changed.

In place of Priceless Head Scale for example, we would get three options instead of just the one:
Sharp Priceless Headscale
+90 armor
+60 health
+90 t&c
+90 dragon breath
+90 strength
+50 dex
+20 focus
+20 power
+20 primal

Keen Priceless Headscale
+90 armor
+60 health
+90 Primal
+90 Dragon Breath
+90 Power
+50 focus
+20 strength
+20 dex
+20 t&c

Battle Hardened Priceless Headscale
+120 Armor
+60 health
+60 T&c
+90 dragon breath (no dragon should be gimpy with breath)
+60 primal
+60 strength
+60 power
+40 dex
+40 focus

The components to craft each could all be the same as what the current headscale takes. The t6 weapons re-use parts, and this way nothing else has to be done to loot tables, etc.

You will notice I picked names which did NOT include the words Helian or Lunus. So the names could use more thought, but I do not think they should be tied to factions. Maybe to historical figures such as Drulkar (melee) or Allathos (spells). Drulkar's Priceless Headscale.

For Wings, substitute +15 fly speed in place of the health.

For chests, I will still ask for three tech slots for dragon techs/sockets. and for forelegs, maybe at least 2 sockets. The numbers above could of course be adjusted down by 1/3 for those.

[Calyndrell]

If three different sets were made for t6, that would be a great idea. And, it would be quite easy to implement as well. Only the master formula would need changed.

In place of Priceless Head Scale for example, we would get three options instead of just the one:
Sharp Priceless Headscale
+90 armor
+60 health
+90 t&c
+90 dragon breath
+90 strength
+50 dex
+20 focus
+20 power
+20 primal

Keen Priceless Headscale
+90 armor
+60 health
+90 Primal
+90 Dragon Breath
+90 Power
+50 focus
+20 strength
+20 dex
+20 t&c

Battle Hardened Priceless Headscale
+120 Armor
+60 health
+60 T&c
+90 dragon breath (no dragon should be gimpy with breath)
+60 primal
+60 strength
+60 power
+40 dex
+40 focus

The components to craft each could all be the same as what the current headscale takes. The t6 weapons re-use parts, and this way nothing else has to be done to loot tables, etc.

You will notice I picked names which did NOT include the words Helian or Lunus. So the names could use more thought, but I do not think they should be tied to factions. Maybe to historical figures such as Drulkar (melee) or Allathos (spells). Drulkar's Priceless Headscale.

For Wings, substitute +15 fly speed in place of the health.

For chests, I will still ask for three tech slots for dragon techs/sockets. and for forelegs, maybe at least 2 sockets. The numbers above could of course be adjusted down by 1/3 for those.

All them bonuses AND 2 techs... hmm your talking about specialising the scales to playstyles then why do all of the scales get at least some focus/power/dex/str surely a caster doesn't particularly care about str and visa versa for melee.. besides to make a hybrid you just combine the two dedicated scale sets to how you wish them to balance so you'd only really need two sets.

Just my two cent.

[Guaran]

Well, the extra tech slots are only needed in a couple places... chest and forelegs. The remainder of the scales could be single tech slot as they are now.

Making just 2 sets, one for melee, one for spells could work. and then we just mix and match to fit the hybrid playstyle if we want... That simplifies the idea by 1/3 as well.

And reviewing the health gains for t6 jewelry (+960), I probably should have put higher numbers in for the health stat. Say +100 Health per scale, on all scaleslots. +90 Armor should be on all 10 slots as well (this value is what the standard crafted armor scale in t6 would have, 15 for each tier)

[Alisto]

I like the suggested stats for the t6 repaired scales - even so...One concern.

I like that there is the option to be a dexterity based melee fighter, a strength based or a health based and that there is a difference between players who choose a different stat base for their scale set. Same for casters - there's a difference between a focus based caster and a power based caster.

Yes, one can choose different techs/crystals and such, but there is little difference between someone who has a 25 dex tech and a 25 tc tech, and while crystals do give a significant stat boost, it is still not near the

With the suggested changes, there is only...'melee', 'caster', and then 'hybrid'.

As it is now, I can choose whatever stat base I want for RP reasons and still be useful enough in a group setting that no one complains I'm not carrying my weight, and I feel like I'm carrying my weight. If the t6 changes were put in, I don't think I'd be able to do that anymore.

[Terao]

You still can choose between crafted T5 scales, T6 repaired scales or a mixture of them, I don't see a problem there. It would even improve the amount of scales you can choose from.

[Alisto]

You still can choose between crafted T5 scales, T6 repaired scales or a mixture of them, I don't see a problem there. It would even improve the amount of scales you can choose from.

I can certainly choose which scale I want to wear, but I can do that the same way I can choose to wear a, for example, t4 scale on my lv100 ancient. The t6 repaired (would) be obviously superior to the t5 - as they should be! I just would rather I be able to have the same amount of options with t6 scales as I do with t5, and not have to willingly put myself at a significant (in my mind) disadvantage to have the same options I did as before.

I was fine with the loss of combat ability when I made my focus/strength hybrid dragon. The loss was, to me, very small.
However, giving up (see below) 90tc, 25 str, 20 focus, 20 power, 65 armor so I can hunt in In-Character scales is quite a big loss (an even bigger loss if the priceless head had a tech on it)


Sharp Priceless Headscale \\\\\ x3 teched Dexterity based headscale
+90 armor \\\\\ +25 armor
+60 health \\\\\ +150 health - socket
+90 t&c \\\\
+90 dragon breath\\\\\
+90 strength \\\\ +65 strength - socket
+50 dex \\\\ +50 dex
+20 focus\\\\
+20 power\\\\
+20 primal\\\\
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \ +10 DPS/+50 to-hit - Razor Teeth tech kit

>.> Sorry for the rampant '\' marks. The forum doesn't like blank spaces, and I was trying to make it look organized.

So, I can certainly switch out a t6 repaired for a t5 if I like, but [I] would lose a lot to do so.

[Guaran]

Remember, each scale would have at a minimum, 1 tech slot, and chest and forelegs, 3 slots. Chest and forelegs you could socket, and use crystals, in other scales such as back, tail, hindlegs, you could tech on the desired tech. On my t6 set I put dragon breath on 3 or 4 of them, might have skewed my dragon breath numbers up a bit in the comparison. The proposed scales would be an increase over t5, if using strength or power based. and you could likely still manage an increase for focus/dex with techs and crystals.. but I suppose for someone wanting to just max out say dexterity, my original 3rd (hybrid) set could fill that need, where it has 40 dex, and you tech on +25, this would be only 5 more dex per scale, but it would be in the positive. Crystals in the forelegs, chest, head should give a boost.

Also, if those hybrid dragons happened to have TP's in strength, power, t&c, primal, those could be shifted to dex since the scales might gain some strength vs the old t5 dex scale set. You could likely still build that type of character.

If the dev's wanted to flesh out the idea, and give a few more choices, that's great. Maybe make the third option +50 or +60 of all the stats. Then it would be like a generic base and you could apply techs to build those dex or focus heavy scale sets.

[Guaran]

Dev's feel like taking another look at this?

Adamantium scales should be better than Mithril scales.

Both are player crafted you know...

[Berdagauret]

I'll second the suggestion...my Ancient (Tondargaet) managed to acquire a T6 scale and I was quite disappointed when comparing it to my T5 scale...so, it sits in my vault, pretty much useless. And, that should *not* be the case!

[Knossos]

A few Ancient Dragons find some merit in the Priceless Back Scale.

Knossos

[Korchak Strongbone]

I can say without a doubt that ever since the T6 Adam scales have started dropping the techs for T6 Jewelery have become a lot harder to get. They wern't that easy to get in the first place now it's harder. I think it took me 3 straight weeks of hunting blights to get the set. Be nice to have the drops of each go off different mobs or something. Not really sure of the right way to go. Peds get jwly drop, dragons get dragon drop? A tech piece to be exchanged for what you want? A gambler chance at rolling for a dragon or biped drop with the piece? Endless possiblities but It just sucks that I get alot of those T6 scale comps that I really don't want even with my dragon T5 all the way except the backscale.
-kor

[Guaran]

I really don't mind them being hard to get. I think that's fine and makes sense really.

But they've put in all this effort to add some new craftable, t6 scales, and have made them purposely worse than t5. Both are player crafted so this makes no sense to me. They shouldn't have bothered.

General thoughts would be, all these pieces should have an armor value. They should have more tech slots, even in lower tiers.

If dev's are afraid these would completely replace the normal crafted scales, they wouldn't, because you need those to be able to hunt for these. And the bits are rare drops (as they should be).

[Alisto]

An interesting idea popped up while I was talking about scales with a friend this morning.

Why not add some +speed/fly speed techs on there, or even +capacity? Rackie suggested a 'T6 exceptional scales of movement' set when I brought up the topic in skype.

Not saying that the stats themselves wouldn't still need to be balanced if these were added - but it'd certainly make them feel more t6-ish, as long as the speed increase was more than what you could get with t5 scales (+24 IIRC if you put velocity on both wings). Add a couple tech slots (two on the wings at the very least, with a fly speed built into the base stats). That would allow for piercing winds + either a move speed tech or fighting, whichever was preferred. Add + walking speed to the fore and/or hindlegs somewhere. Mind, the +walking speed I only mentioned to give a clearer idea of what I'm getting at. I've only ever seen one player routinely use khutit form, and +speed would only really be noticed during crafting.

[AmonGwareth]

Changes for this coming in the next patch.