The Severe Injustice of Balance between the Dragon Race and the bipedal Races.

[Vesuvius]

Adding life to Helians would be sickly powerful, not to mention ice. My secondary character is currently an 81 cleric and I can clear the entire spawn minus the undead on the island of alged (in combination with my dragon).

Granted, two characters are certainly better than one (I can chain heal while chain AoE), but it would be highly unfair both to lunus dragons and also bipeds. Also, I dont see any real reason why dragons should get access to biped spells except /perhaps/ at ancient.

I would like to see dragon only solutions to our problems, rather than making us into bipeds with wings.

[Pero Salmon]

I dont know about you, but Im kind of tired of all you dragons complaining that you are underpowered. Underpowered in what? In dealing damage to a mob? i dont know if you dragons realize this but you are playing a massive multiplayer role playing gaming.Maybe dragons are suppose to be underpowered in the damage dealing department to be in a kind of role in the game. You dragons could do very well in a group, which this game is trying get you to do which means this might not be a soloist game for you dragons. If I was playing a dragon I would take all the advantages in grouping with a powerful biped and Im sure many bipeds would have no problem in hunting with three other people plus having a dragon around.If anyone who have seen me or known me in the world of horizons I would be more then happy to havea dragon acompany me all you do is ask, amazing the power of saying hello to me in a tell. In a word of advise use your advantages not your disadvantages in the game if you were to try to group you might see this, you guys could easily stand back 30 meters while a warrior is tanking a mob for you while you shoot it with a flame bolt, or provides heals, or provide support. With that extra 500 pts total damage you do it adds upto defeat a mob faster. Believe or not your advantage actually fill in the disadvantages with most bipeds.

In the multiclassing arguement, no i dont think this should be allowed. It doesnt provide a sense of "role" in the game. As in a player who choices to be a cleric stays a cleric in the whole game, but I thinkpresitges (Sp)classes should be allowed, providing it have some sort of content with it like quests to add content.
what I mean "role" asin acleric you provide the heals of a group, you dont have large amount of strength nor armor, just mainly the support of the tanker to keep him alive while the tanker provides the aggro of the whole group keeping a damage dealer alive, while a controller, another supporter, binds five other mobs to keep everyone from getting mauled. Where the dragons fill in lunus would be the damage dealers and helian would be the controllers.

But let me ask you this,if multclassing is thrown out and bipeds had to do quests or a series of quests to get more powerful abilities or weapons should the reward reflect to difficulty of the quest. For example, a lvl 40 warrior is doing a quest to get more a advanced cleave that would do 5x the damage of a normal damageand have a cycle period of 1:30, so if the biped was doing 100 pts in normal damage the cleave would be500 ptsdamage. The biped is required to kill four lvl 38 orges (minion mobs) each have 1500 health points, plus a named mob that is lvl 42 with 4000 health points. If the biped is at lvl 40 he cant solo this quest he would have to have adequate group of five or more to defeat these mobs.

Pero Salmon

[Vesuvius]

If your tired of seeing it then dont come into a thread in the dragon forums that relates to it. Period.

Mabey dragons are supposed to be underpowered in the damage dealing department? Well then where is the part that makes up for being underpowered there? It certainly isnt in tanking ability, nor is it in spell support or heals. There isnt a single areawhere a biped character can notpotentially outperfom a dragon, and in many cases a biped will outperform a dragon in all areas. A dragon is limited in its progression and receives limited rewards for the effort that it can put in while with a biped the opposite holds true. Period.

And guess what. Being underpowered/imbalanced takes away from my fun in Horizons, and I as a player have every right to complain until something is done to change that. I am tired of seeing bipeds tell me and every other devout dragon player to 'stop complaining'. We play this game too and have just as much right to voice our opinions.If you dont want tohear it then stay the hell out of ourthreads, muchless our forums.

[Pero Salmon]

Vesuvius,

Didnt you read any of posting, I think in the second paragraph I did suggest bipeds shouldnt multiclass where theoverpowering comes in. Again use bipeds advantages in grouping. Again dragons are just fine ifyou guys are willing to group, but you're notwilling so you see the downside of being a dragon more.

I would stop complaining about it and suck it up. If I was going to be a dragon I would do actually what I suggested group with a biped. You have seen me right a level 100 warrior, I would be more then happy to aggro a mob for you so you get little or zero damage and get decent experience points. If this game would to stop multiclassing your obiviously see my disadvantages toward another class. By the way dragons do have an advantage over meas a warrior, I have a harder time dealing magical damage then a dragon for some reason you guys have a better time with it. I mean why complain when you plenty of bipeds you could group with? Group with mea lvl 100 warrior. There is alot you could work with if you try.

Pero Salmon

[Vahrokh]

Once upon a time there was a dragon. He never exploited anything but hunting he could find one hoard drop every 30 mobs. He could excel in dealing damage in groups since in the other departments... let's forget them.

Now he still does not exploit, and AE makes him feel like a stupid mor.on because he did not do it and take some advantage. And since now that hoard does not drop almost any more he's denied his combat role in groups, he just stays in an angle, blasting off a distance, like a Helian he is not. Sure, his added 500 damage help in group. But replacing him with a mage dealing in the same time 3000 damage would help more plus crowd control etc.

Once that dragon used to group with other dragons. True, a biped cannot conceive a dragons only group because they are, well, the dominors. But once it was possible and successful. Full Rites of Passage were done with dragons only groups. Full expeditions to the W deadlands were possible. With dragon killable mobs and more readily available hoardables.
All is in the past now.
Now, either you bring "heavy chivalry" of uberpowered bipeds or you simple dragon and your mates are slain en masse.

I still love to recall how I am asked in tells to come in groups at Kaa and Saliena as level 22 cleric alt without even a teched spell or item and in bronze armor and not as level 100/100/86 dragon with the best equipment V with full techs V...

There has to be a reason why, don't you think?

[Vesuvius]

Vesuvius,

Didnt you read any of posting, I think in the second paragraph I did suggest bipeds shouldnt multiclass where theoverpowering comes in. Again use bipeds advantages in grouping. Again dragons are just fine ifyou guys are willing to group, but you're notwilling so you see the downside of being a dragon more.

I would stop complaining about it and suck it up. If I was going to be a dragon I would do actually what I suggested group with a biped. You have seen me right a level 100 warrior, I would be more then happy to aggro a mob for you so you get little or zero damage and get decent experience points. If this game would to stop multiclassing your obiviously see my disadvantages toward another class. By the way dragons do have an advantage over meas a warrior, I have a harder time dealing magical damage then a dragon for some reason you guys have a better time with it. I mean why complain when you plenty of bipeds you could group with? Group with mea lvl 100 warrior. There is alot you could work with if you try.

Pero Salmon

I do group with a biped, a level 81 cleric: Vesuvive Veix, who is also played by myself. But grouping with a biped doesnt change my situation at all. Another biped could still do the job my dragon does, only better. I dont want to be inferior to another person in a group andI have a very serious problem with that. As a dragon in a group, mycontribution is tolerated, rather than desired.

You obviously haventread any of my posts because no where have I called out to nerf multiclassing or abolish it.

[Pero Salmon]

You obviously haventread any of my posts because no where have I called out to nerf multiclassing or abolish it.

You wanted dragons to be less inferior, Im telling you how it work that is stopping bipeds from multiclassing. Since dragons cant multiclass, bipeds shouldnt either. However, I never said it was you, a few others I have read do have a problem with it so Im pretty much talking to them. Again the perfect imbalance comes from bipeds from multiclassing in the adventures skills. If a person decides to be cleric is forever a cleric and in future when they are lvl 60, with the appropriate quests and so forth (besides my question in the third paragraph never been answered), they have very limited attack strength and defense, but have the ability to heal a tanker or anyone in a group, but main job keeping the tanker alive, that would be a warrior, with 500 health pts in every 5 seconds or so, pretty much keeping him alive.This a set of "role" that a cleric is in a group, they cannot get into a fight with a mob at their own lvl or they will lose with out being the right group. If you want to know what im talking about, City of Heroes andEverquest 2does this same thing in having their classesto be placed in a role.

You want AE (Tulga Games now), to make you able to do more damage or whatever doesnt solve anything. It comes in solving the issue with the bipeds as in making them be in a form of role in a group. When the bipeds start having their disadvantages facing monsters and unable to kill a monster at their own level they will have to seek another persontogroup withto fill in the disadvantage.

To where a dragon fit all this, I really have no idea, Its like comparing apple and oranges like someone said.

[Jaraiden]

Multiclassing is a feature in Horizons, at least from levels 1 to 100. It is not going anywhere (and yes it was stripped from Dragons). AE failed to realize and then account for players taking multiclassing to the extreme with self-healing, tanking, perfect multicasting flame bombers rounding up groups of 10 or so monters to reap in huge XP bonuses. Players can solo WA anchors and their forces.

Then they compounded that with non stop spawns in certain areas, ending with Purple necroflies and other beast-like monsters that give good XP/effort. A repeat of pre-merge cursed wolves.

Then they absolutely refuse to complete the dragon race to better match lore, refuse to complete the adventure quests to 100, refuse to add in the abilities described in the Official Strategy Guide (that info came from somewhere reliable, correct?), and continue to provide biped only content (as listed above).

Yes, dragons have a role, but a da.mn narrow role due to their incompleteness. And being Ancient is not completness. I want a playable adult dragon where I can enjoy the game putting in the similar effort a modest multiclassed biped did - is that too much to ask? As others have stated repeatedly, multiclassing taken to the extreme diludes the synergy of characters in a party with roles because most bipeds can do nearly anything - melee tank, caster blaster, healer, crowd control, etc.

Lunus dragons are militant, and have essentially no role in a biped group (lore says to serve me or get out of my sight). Helian dragons are teachers, and may tend to scout (fly) and strategize, then heal with Breezes and cast spells (due to size, physically cannot melee besides a tanking meleer). In either case, it is degrading for a dragon to be so outclassed, consistently, in melee and spells, by the other Living Races. AE refuses to create content to allow adult dragons to earn abilities to give them balance toward biped characters rated 110, 120, 130, 140, and higher.

Dragons are NOT supposed to be weak. AE created the lore for a reason, but opts to not follow it more closely.They were worshipped at one time, honored, statues made. Magic was derived from the Primal magic. AE just refuses to complete the race and opts to dally on blighted items and the Ancient Rite of Passage to allow incomplete Ancient dragons.

AE sees dragons as a marketing ploy. I hope one day they will reward the players that came to Horizons to play a dragon by completing the race and giving dragon players the same reward/effort as they so overwhelmingly and consitently give to players of biped characters.

:: sighs :: maybe Chris T and Tulga Games can get AE on track.

[Larus-Fel]

i hear ya on that jarai [Y]
if you haven't noticed a lvl 80 mage.. in 5 minute timers can wipe out an entire Purple necrofly spawn. 30+mobs 100 rating.. instant level. just get a dwarf to masse' pull hit Dwarven toughness. blam.. instant killage. (dont believe me. go there and see for yourself) in respect to that a dragon can barely solo 2 without skills/regen etc. with gold rage/ shield possibly 3.. and no special ability that does area damage above 200 dmg repectively, to any mob of that level

[KD]

i to am a 100/100 dragon with 10m+ hoard. it is a very belittling experance to see a bi ped with lvl 90 and a 100 rating go where a lvl 80 dragon and myself die.

here is a few ideas to help dragons and not go to far i hope.
1 hoard as it is now gives very little return for the efort.. my next 15m hoard will give me +72 armor. come on to get that 15m hoard i could dam near get a scond class to 100. could any one tell me i would see much improvment in combat WITH 72 PTS incress?
my suggestion is to change the points we get with hoard. ie from 1-500k 4 pts armor per lvl. 500k-1.5m 5pts. 1.5-5m 6 pts and so on.

2 RoP give 1 group heal and another castable heal with both being techable.( will give us at lest some role in a group) or a group heal and reduced instant heal timer.
reduce timer on all breath weapons. breath weapons are next to useless right now. ie 2 min timer on breath of fire III with incressed hit%. acc quests to 100 may fix this. bottom line breath weps should be one of our most used weps

3 ARoP reduce breath weps timer even more. reduce heal timers and add to stats( dont know exatly what and how much as that will have to be game tested).
maybe add new breath wep that does not have a stupidly long timer as to make useless.
4 to make up for our lake of multi classing give us more lvls than bi peds but make it so each lvl or group of lvls takes as many points as lvling the additional class and gives simular benifets.
5 make it so we get some benifets from our crafting class for adv.

6 finish all quests to 100.

7 give dragons res ether for RoP or ARoP

[Dragonboy]

In order for things to be fair right now a lvl 100Ancient Dragon should be just as strong as a biped with his rating on max (150 I think)...
But right now a lvl 100 adult dragon is barely stronger then a rating lvl 100 biped...

First we must ask ourselves 1 question namely:
Isit the Dragons who are weak or the Bipeds who are massively overpowered?
Personally I think that at this particular time Bipeds are overpowered to the extreme, but I will never say that I am weak....

As a lvl 64/98 Adult Lunus I can solo golems up to lvl 90 (sometimes I win, sometimes I die)... The problem with high rating bipeds is that they can do simular stunts only then with multiple mobs...
Do I really wanna be like them? Not anymore, I have to be honest that in the beginning I really wanted to be multiclass like the bipeds and part of me still does, but I feel more for a massive restriction of schools a biped is allowed to join...

I personally think it is kinda stupid that a (rating 5)lvl 2 warrior can use the flame bolt I from his multiclass school lvl 9 mage and take on mobs of lvl 8-9 without even having decent armor except for the cleric armorhe bought from consigner also without a decent weapon fitting for a warrior and this allfor massive xp and extremely fast leveling (my own saris alt a few weeks ago)...
In a mere few hours I was lvl 9 cleric/lvl 9 mage/lvl 7 warrior...
In other words 25 lvl's gained while as a dragon that took me 2-3 weeks of constant playing and killing stuff...

Maybe a nice idea for the bipeds:
1) Amax of 2-3 adv/craft schools
2) Unlimited adv/craft schools BUT only gaining stats and/or skill bonusses for the first 2-3 joined so in other words gaining the fighting or crafting abilities but not the additional stats and skill bonus normally gained by gaining a lvl.

I personaly think Dragons are stronger then bipeds with only 1 school, but it is the massive unlimited multiclass ability which almost turns them into gods in comparrison to dragons.

Some limited multiclassing wouldnt hurt Dragons as well maybe 2-3 schools...
Fighting, spellcasting and healing (rez included).

But it is doubtfull this will ever happen as long as bipeds keep whining that we are good enough as we are because we are able to fly...
While in fact I rather have the ability to use 20 stacking breezes, gifts and other temp. stats improvers, but this is personal of course...

The morale of this story...
Dragons are strong!!!
Multiclass bipeds are massively wayto strong!!!
And these factsare simply ruining the game for many (dragon) players

[imported_Lycaunoss]

The morale of this story...
Dragons are strong!!!
Multiclass bipeds are massively wayto strong!!!
And these factsare simply ruining the game for many (dragon) players

As much as I agree with you nerfing bi-peds is the wrong thing to do to fix it.

[Jaraiden]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Dragonboy wrote:


The morale of this story...
Dragons are strong!!!
Multiclass bipeds are massively wayto strong!!!
And these factsare simply ruining the game for many (dragon) players
As much as I agree with you nerfing bi-peds is the wrong thing to do to fix it.

The simple fact is that AE has created a playing system that, when taken to the extremes, creates a very unbalanced playing experience. Nerfing is a word used also to balance the playing experiences. For example, let's say the Reaver class was not adjusted back in January/February . . . . how would you like to see Reavers as a dominant class in all biped characters?

AE has not foreseen the actions of the players for extreme multiclassing and thus buildingoverpowered, self-healing, multi-attack style combat toons. If such was unintended, they have every right to fix an exploit they created (sure AE was ignorant, but doesn't mean they can't fix the problem they allowed to fester). If it was intended, then they owe it to the player base to beef up dragons to match both the lore they created and to a similar playing experience for effort as the rest of the player base.

The two major choices are to rebalance the biped multiclassing system to try to achieve more distinguishable classes - see http://www.istaria.com/page.php?pg=n...hool%20Changesand/or beef up the dragon race/class. Unfortunately the players, mature or not, will all cry nerf and whine and say"why? there is no PvP" andthreaten to quit the game. For the most part they enjoy the power they wield over the monsters and dragons. And, of course, they boast about their uberness (like primal did with Dwarven Toughness) and whine of lack of uber content to keep their uber toon happy.

Maltavorn had an excellent post about multiclassing and why traditionally there have been limits to multiclassing. Most just ignored it.

And, as we have seen, AE is moving like molasses in the winter to empower adult and Ancient dragons so they match Istarian lore and to achieve some balance in reward (playing experience) for effort. They won't even finish the adventure skill tasks (most stop at 70, two at 40). They have a video of a dragon with whirlwind attack, but we don't have it . . . . seems they like to hold back dragon content then say it is "added" later for Ancients. Even our Prime Bolt spell was added 2 months after release (and STILL retains the animation of Flame Bolt).

The content AE adds favor the biped style of playing - combine farming for techniques, expert formulas, technique resources, and blighted items. Hatchlings, for the most part, need biped healers and their overpowering fighting style to get their wings (well, those that don't like the challenges of becoming an adult anyway). And don't forget plots - AE continued to add functionality to the plot system, thus purposefully delaying dragon lair plots.

[Raak2]

I'm going to use an example to get my point across.

Bicycle = Non Dragon Race, aka Biped, hehe

Dragon = 777 Jumbo Jet

Logical thinking --

Crash a bicycle into something small damage if any, then crash a jumbo jet into something it's utterly destroyed

Horizons logic --

Bicycle has shocks, playing cards in the spokes, tassles on the handle bar grips, banana seat with sissy bar and flag, saddle bags, basket on handle bars, moto cross fenders, mud grip tires, 20 speed, a horn and bell, mutli-colored paint with training wheels with room for upgrades. Equipped with thermal nuclear devices under the seat, fenders andhandle bar grips.

The jumbo jet has to land, stopand be pushed into something and it's very slow because there are dips and bumps on the ground and the tires are flat. Cargo and passenger doors have been weldedshut, all thefuel is gone and the plane is madefromaluminum cans.

I would love to see everyone get charged to use their good damage and defense abilities. What is it, 1 Hoard point cost 10 copper. That is a good starting point. Itwill cost everyone copper to cast/use their abilities and if they don't use themand die, we will ridicule them for not using the abilities and tell them to stop complaining because it only cost 6or 7 silver per use. I won't even get into what it would cost for theDefense ability. I'm sureafter one day of seeing every cent you have go to waste and knowing there is hour upon hour of crafting to get some money to go fight again, most would have a different view of the Severe Injustice.

[Marco]

I would love to see everyone get charged to use their good damage and defense abilities. What is it, 1 Hoard point cost 10 copper. That is a good starting point. Itwill cost everyone copper to cast/use their abilities and if they don't use themand die, we will ridicule them for not using the abilities and tell them to stop complaining because it only cost 6or 7 silver per use. I won't even get into what it would cost for theDefense ability. I'm sureafter one day of seeing every cent you have go to waste and knowing there is hour upon hour of crafting to get some money to go fight again, most would have a different view of the Severe Injustice.

Ya, it makes sense that either everyone pays or noone pays.

[Marco]

Bicycle has shocks, playing cards in the spokes, tassles on the handle bar grips, banana seat with sissy bar and flag, saddle bags, basket on handle bars, moto cross fenders, mud grip tires, 20 speed, a horn and bell, mutli-colored paint with training wheels with room for upgrades. Equipped with thermal nuclear devices under the seat, fenders andhandle bar grips.

Can I borrow that thermal nuclear device of yours for a second? I believe you'll be pleased with the result [A]

[Raak2]

I'm thinking about adding a new one, A Triped, it will be a tricycle with a Hemi (blower and NOS included), Unlimited Heat Seeking Missles, Laser Guided Bombs, retractable wings, 60 ft trailer to haul stuff in, flip flop paint and Platinium wheels.

[Marco]

I'm thinking about adding a new one, A Triped, it will be a tricycle with a Hemi (blower and NOS included), Unlimited Heat Seeking Missles, Laser Guided Bombs, retractable wings, 60 ft trailer to haul stuff in, flip flop paint and Platinium wheels.

and a clown

[Stingray]

ROFL[:D]


Good analogy