The Severe Injustice of Balance between the Dragon Race and the bipedal Races.

[gopher65]

I didn't read this entire thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I wanted to make a suggestion in here:).

An adult dragon is HUGE. Does it seem likely that even the most decayed, inept Zombie could miss an ****** that is as big asthe broad side of a barn? How could a dragon possibly evade? It can't. I think adult (and ancient) dragons should have a big fat ZERO evasion skill (physical attacks, not magic. Magic is different, cause you aren't simply trying to jump out of the way).

Because they should have 0 evasion, they should have MASSIVEinate resistances against pretty much everything. Dragons should be easy to hit, hard to damage. In particular they should be resistant against:

Fire damage
Physical attacks (ranged and melee)
Energy damage

To me this makes sense. I shutter every time I see a 100 ton dragon tip-toe out of the way of an arrow:P. It is silly and needs to change. I know there are probably more important things about the game to change, but I think this could be used as a way to adjust dragons to make them more to their players liking.

[Joolara]

I agree it must be frustrating not to be able to develope your character after 100/100 as a dragon, except for amassing hoard. It would be nice if you could chose to do something else if you no longer wish to be a "pure dragon adventurer", like bi-ped classes can.

Nevertheless, I will develope my dragon alt one day - I so want to fly!

[Seranthor]

'Seranthor it's not my job to balance classes.' is what you said, and your exactly correct.It's AE's job. That said, if you wantAE to CHANGE that balance to something YOU want then YOU bear some if not all the responsibility to offer up alternatives.

My entire point is if you want AE to listen to you then present clear, concise, logical suggestions, sadly most of the dissertation I have seen does not even remotely meet that idea.

All you have to do is look at the beginnings of this thread to see the rants and whines.

[evilkarl]

Add all dragon quests to 100
Once that is done raise the DRAGON cap to 200
Add all quests to 200
Let them adventure to 150 as adults gaining stats at the same rate
at 150 they become eligable for AROP huge boost in stats with completion progression changes to 10/level in skills 12 in str and 25 in hp.

This would make them stronger stat wise than any biped could be at present

The down side? Each death point post 100 inccurs a perm stat reduction.

[Seranthor]

Thank you evilkarl... I was looking for some suggestions like this to wrap my mind around... :) Although I see a balance issue with raising the cap to 200 on dragons only, but this might be a beginning for those that are looking for a way to push AE into more 'balance'.

[Pharcellus]

'Seranthor it's not my job to balance classes.' is what you said, and your exactly correct.It's AE's job. That said, if you wantAE to CHANGE that balance to something YOU want then YOU bear some if not all the responsibility to offer up alternatives.

My entire point is if you want AE to listen to you then present clear, concise, logical suggestions, sadly most of the dissertation I have seen does not even remotely meet that idea.

All you have to do is look at the beginnings of this thread to see the rants and whines.

It's already been done quite a few times, Seranthor, and goes on as we speak. This thread was spawned not because we were being challenged to find solutions, but because people (such as yourself) keep challenging the existence of the problem.

No one is arguing your "entire point", because it is a priori. The dissertation from the beginning of the thread was intended to counter others' claims that the problems either do not exist, or trivialize them beyond belief.

Also, anyone knows that before you can offer an effective solution to a problem, you have to establish and understand the problem itself. Only then can you make any real headway into devising effective (and workable, within the given framework) solutions for it.

Constantly denying the problem's existence to those who are living it day in and day out doesn't go very far in enticing them to focus on solutions.

[Pharcellus]

Name me a single biped class that can do melee hits for >1k, Have 4 hots, 4 aoe spells, a bolt its own buffs. You can't because no biped class is as much of a generalist

Easy. It is called "Biped Adventurer", and it is a ******** sight more powerful as a generalist class than "Dragon Adventurer".

On stats while at present it may not be true once all the quests are in dragons will have 9/level for all skills. No biped class gets the that.

Again, "Biped Adventurer/Crafter" gets them. Biped Adventurer gets 10 in every stat per level, and Biped Crafter gets 10/11 in every skill per level.

Multiclassing does allow bipeds to become much stronger but when choosing to be a dragon you knew you would not have that option. Do I think a dragon should be as strong as someone who has 2 or 3 schools Perhaps as an ancient when they have gone through the same amount of effort as it takes a biped.

No, when making my Dragon, I didn't know squat about what the future would hold. Between developer chats, lore, and hype, I was led to believe that we would have a lot more effectiveness than we currently do at the top end.

As for effort, I have ALREADY gone through enough effort to have around 4 biped classes. Hell, Devilin has nearly TWO HUNDRED MILLION XP OVER 100. That's a point that is continually missed. Bipeds get reward for their efforts over 100. We don't. You all don't lose it. We do.

- Dragon adv gets more than any biped

Not. "Biped Adventurer" >>> "Dragon Adventurer" in ALL ways.

- I do get sick of seeing dragons complain they are not as strong as someone who has put in the time to level 2 or more adv schools

..and I do get sick of being told that I have no right to complain, even when I HAVE put in the requisite effort, and have little to nothing to show for it.

[evilkarl]

BUT YOU CAN FLY!

No one is denying the problem exists some of us are just trying to point out that as a class dragon adventurer is actually fairly well rounded. But it lacks the advancements opportunities afforded to a biped. It can't be improved upon.

The fact it can't be improved upon is one of its two major downfalls. The other major downfall being the fact that a large majority of your ability quests which are almost required to advance are not present in game. If all the adventure quests where present in game it would go a long way to helping dragons, but then we would also hear about the cost of higher tiers of GR and SS.

If for a second you do what seems to be impossible for most dragon players and asses the merits of the class it does have a great deal going for it. But every dragon wants to compare themselves to a reaver or a beserker or a healer or a mage, when in fact they are none of those things.

Once again I repeat. I do not think dragons are fine as they are. They need work, they need advancement options passed 100. Adulthood should grant more than the pathetic boost in stats and flight, they need quests completed the list goes on BUT as a class it does have a lot going for it.

Hell I would multi dragon adv if I could :). Spiked scales and some HoT's would be nice

[Pharcellus]

Let me understand this correctly,

Dragons want the healing ability of a cleric, the tanking ability of a warrior, the evasion of a monk, the melee ability of a chaos warrior or bezerker, and the spell damage of a mage or spiritist AND the ability of flight. All for the effort of leveling a single class? Please. How about review your abilities and skills and then come back and make realistic positive suggestions on how to improve your class, without the p*ssing and moaning that your underpowered and mistreated.

Make this a constructive thread quickly before the Mods move this to Rants or Dragon only.

I know I have never said any such thing, so no, you don't understand correctly.

However, since you brought it up, bipeds HAVE what you describe (save flight, for the moment). Do I think Dragons should have all of it for the effort of levelling a single class? NO! (and you will not find a post by me anywhere making any such absurd claim).

I'd be happy to make the thread constructive (as if the subject had never been discussed constructively before [8-)]), as soon as people stop telling me that us are wrong and that our arguments have no merit.

[Rocinante]

Injustice?

How can this be injustice? This the natural order.

Elves are superior to all races.

The sooner you get over it the happier you will feel.

Rocinante
Elf

[evilkarl]

Easy. It is called "Biped Adventurer", and it is a ******** sight more powerful as a generalist class than "Dragon Adventurer".

I have not seen anyone in the biped adventurer school on order could you point one out to me?

Again, "Biped Adventurer/Crafter" gets them. Biped Adventurer gets 10 in every stat per level, and Biped Crafter gets 10/11 in every skill per level.

Still not seen the school.

No, when making my Dragon, I didn't know squat about what the future would hold. Between developer chats, lore, and hype, I was led to believe that we would have a lot more effectiveness than we currently do at the top end.

I knew entering the game that dragons had no classes, I didn't even follow beta

As for effort, I have ALREADY gone through enough effort to have around 4 biped classes. Hell, Devilin has nearly TWO HUNDRED MILLION XP OVER 100. That's a point that is continually missed. Bipeds get reward for their efforts over 100. We don't. You all don't lose it. We do.

Any XP earn't over 100 is lost to us as well. However we can join a new school and be weak for a period and keep earning xp.

Not. "Biped Adventurer" >>> "Dragon Adventurer" in ALL ways.

See above request to produce example of this school.

..and I do get sick of being told that I have no right to complain, even when I HAVE put in the requisite effort, and have little to nothing to show for it.

You have a 100/100 Dragon, that is something to show for it. You also have a collection of techs and forms that would probably rival some bipeds.

[imported_Ssilmath]

I agree that dragons seem rather underpowered, but what I have come to find is that dragons and bipeds play two entirely different games that happen to have the same lore and some economic sharing...Comparing yourself to a biped is almost silly, i'ts like apples and oranges...

And for the record, the most damage I have ever done to anything was 700 damage to a level 91 mithril golem with Cleave II and maxed out buffs...I'm not a super multiclassed biped, but I do decent...

By all means, power up the dragons, they deserve it, and either let them have at least one multiclass option or raise their level cap...But understand, dragons are different from bipeds, the way you do things is different from us...

I'd like to see dragons with crazy stats, huge amounts of armor, devestating magical attacks and tremendous melee...

But I'd also like to see dragons become harder to play and rather difficult in the higher levels...multiclassing only does so much, you could be level 100 in every class and still not do more than a certain amount of damage with special attacks, while dragons seem to be clamoring for the ability to do massive damage with normal attacks and gets abilities and spells that don't really fit in with dragon lore in any world...

More content is needed, yes...
More power is needed, yes...

But perhaps you should ask those bipeds that have multiple high levels or lots of crafting levels, and ask them how much time they spent working on getting there and how much they spent on items that they couldn't craft for themselves...

I think you dragons have it a lot better than you think you do

[Jah]

Do not oversimplify our abilities to make them soundworse than what they are.

** I do think dragons deservebetternatural armor.

Gold Rage ONLY does that kind of damage if the dragon specifically specs themselves for melee damage.
All classes spec towards their skills and u only have 2 yet get 3 techs.
It costs hoard and it doesnt automatically hit.
And bipeds never miss..melee has1 attack every 5 mins that auto hits

4 HoTs? Ok, first of all its more like 2 HoTs and they only last 30seconds with a 1minute recharge (no reason to use the lower more gimp versions). The best one gives 6 tics of 72 or so hp for a total of 572hp, the second best one gives about 55 a tic for 6 tics, making 330 hp.
Lets leave out the fact that those are AoE and conviently ignore your best HoT ( self only ) refreshing breeze which heals for more, lasts for 2.5mins w/ 5min reset.

You have absolutely NO idea what kind of effort it takes to max out hoard.
yah..the difference between 1mil hoard and 25mil is 200 armor..so the last 24mil are not that usefull andhardly worth complaining about.
ly compares to leveling up two more 100 classes in time and effort, possibly more.
My friend just went from 8mil to 22mil hoard in under4 weeks..
Not only that the grind is painstakingly boring andthe rewards for hoard are pathetic.
Hoard attacks are pathetic?
all the effort I have put into my character, after I have reached the point where he can no longer progress...I care about not being able to put any additional effort in and bipeds can continue to... A dragon cannot afford to use gold rage all the time.
You could put time in building hoard enable you to use gold rage on reg basis which would enable you to do the highest damage melee in game..but that wouldn't be progress I guess..

It is unnacceptable to say that because I chose to play a dragon, that because I play this game to play a dragon, that I must be forced to be subsatisfactory.
plus Do not give me stupid examples of 'well if a monk and a dragon ect'. equals it is ok for players who like to play monks to suck, because they are not dragons. What they enjoy playing isless important.

[Jah]

Hell I would multi dragon adv if I could [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]. Spiked scales and some HoT's would be nice

Lol..and I will trade my rez for their blast, or better yet they can have all my spirit / blight spells for thier primal! [:)]

[Jah]

Again, "Biped Adventurer/Crafter" gets them. Biped Adventurer gets 10 in every stat per level, and Biped Crafter gets 10/11 in every skill per level.
And what game are you refering to? Biped and dragon get the same attribute pts per level 26 for adv and 20 for craft. Or is biped adv to you lv100/100/100/100 and crafter lv100x the # of skills you want? Dragon gets same pts/lv in craft as outfitter/blacksmith yet they dont get quests. Battlemage must lv 3 classes to 100 to have 10 melee and 10 magic while dragon gets 10/10 from 1 class + quests.

[Seranthor]

I have neither trivialized nor have I denied there is an imbalance... I'm utterly sick of folks whining about the imbalance w/o offering reasonable solutions... Pharcellus if you can find anywhere that I have done either by all means produce them... I KNOW there is a problem with the balance... and I KNOW that there are MANY problems with HZ.... I will submit to YOU that standing there with a bullhorn yelling that there is a problem without offering solutions is counterproductive and eventually sours the potential support you might gain IF you were to offer real and logical solutions.


Fact: an imbalance exists, I dont deny that nor have I ever...

Solution: No Idea, I'm not the one screaming that the imbalance exists.

When you have a reasonable, workable solution then submit it to AE and post it here. Whining and slamming your potential backers isnt wise lest you end up alienating them and instead of having them backing you they are picking apart every solution that you may offer and watching them spiral down in flames.

[DeathTiny]

Dragons may be too weak without hoardburn that´s right .. and they need lairs .. maybe more armor too .. at least i would like to see a difference in lunus and helian .. while the one gets more armor the other one should gain spellresis and magic evasion maybe ?

And without a chance for multiclassing the "Game-Over" at 100/100 and no further progress hurts and let dragons quit or switch to an biped alt as it is done much too fast compared to other games (for all incl. dragons).
But with hoard-abilities and everything else dragons atm have and the chance to multiclass they would maybe be too strong.
So there must be other ways to get a little bit more power for dragons and to avoid thefast game over for the class.

And some bipeds are game over too in some days or weeks as they reach rating 150/160+ and there is no benefit left from additional classes ... the game is since release constantly 20-40 levels short with content and that´s the main problem.
Open ended levelsystems with highest levels taking ages (and holding the best/new abilities so that players would want those levels)would be my setup for a game.
Also no free abilies for bipeds or dragons but quests/tasks for each and every of them.
Multiclassing yes but class 2 only at maybe 90% of your highest class and class 3 on 75% .... and levels above 100 maybe 10.000.000 100>101 and 20.000.000 for 101>102 and so on ....
But it´s too late to do something like this in HZ...it would only drive away more players as it is a nerv compared to what actually is possible.
And i would go for high deathpenalties above rating 100 ... high exp-lossfrom every deathbut no backwards levelling.. wouldalso make it harder for leechers to find a placeas the groups need to be a little bit better ifthey don´t want to be killed and lose the exp from the last hour(s).
But for death-penalties we need a working base(game) with no healthbar-freeze or other "strange" things going on.

my 2 cents

[cauri_order]

couple things i like to point out to ya:

1) Refreshing Breeze - great HoT now that they fixed it. but it is a 1.5 min ability on a 5 min recycle.

2) we get 8 per level in our primary skills (primal and tooth & claw) add quests (assuming up to 100) and its 9 per level. We get 10 in two skills, breath weapon and ingenuity. Please get yer info straight before you post.

I'm a dragon. 91 adv, 82 craft. I'm ok with what i am now, but only because its been almost a year and aside from gold rage/silver strike, im aabout the same that i was. There have been improvements, dont get me wrong, but as a high level dragon I feel kinda wimpy. :-) I've become accustomed to my class and can deal with it.

It's all ben said before, in Kumu's dragon issues list. They need to get aroudn to that soon or lots of dragons are going to be dropping like flies. Nobody likes to feel inferior and I think thats what most of the dragon posters are trying to get at.

You say post what you think is the problem and provider some suggestions. Well its been done. Kumu spent countless hours coming up wthi his issues list. No ranting in there, just a clear recitation of the facts. A dev looked at it, copied and pasted the info, and very little has happened. The same dev told me that change would come very soon (at teh time of the merge). Still not here.

I also feel for the monk class. They kind of in teh same position as we are in. HOwever, they can boost themselves wtih teh power of multiclassing. We cannot. Some know before hand some did not. I personally didnt know that i was stuck to a single class when i choose a dragon.

That is the key defining difference that some seem to over look. Bipeds have almost limitless ways to enhance their power. As Malt said earlier, they could theoritically attain 10 per level in all adventure stats (hell of a lot of multiclassing I know, but its possible). Most dragons can get (assuming quests to 100) is 9 level.

Boost some tooth and claw, boost some primal. create two separate classes. hell i dunno. maybe limit the number of classes a biped can take (oh i hear the screaming already :P).

Ok I'm done.

[Pharcellus]

No one is denying the problem exists some of us are just trying to point out that as a class dragon adventurer is actually fairly well rounded. But it lacks the advancements opportunities afforded to a biped. It can't be improved upon.

Never argued it. You all keep arguing "classes" and specific mechanics. I am arguing "net effect of the current state". Completely different problem spaces. Maybe the specifics of the "Dragon Adventurer" class are "well-rounded", but the net effect is that we aren't good at anything, which means we are less effective characters in a game that hypes us as being, in my estimation, as effective, viable characters.

I am aware as you are of the specifics and issues, probably moreso as I LIVE them every day. I just get tired of being told that I am "OK", when I know different. I cannot farm techs/forms like a biped (who hasn't put in the time and effort that I have with my Dragon, btw), so telling me that I can (or inferring it from an incorrect assertion on your part) is denying the problem exists, in my eyes. Istaria knows I have tried.

The fact it can't be improved upon is one of its two major downfalls. The other major downfall being the fact that a large majority of your ability quests which are almost required to advance are not present in game. If all the adventure quests where present in game it would go a long way to helping dragons, but then we would also hear about the cost of higher tiers of GR and SS.

First, Silver Strike automatically maxes out, because it is an acquired ability, not a quested one. I already have Silver Strike X. Gold Rage, on the other hand is quested up to level 70. Three more levels of Gold Rage won't do a whole lot except deplete hoard faster, because plenty of mobs are more resistant to base slash/T&C damage, or have hideous amounts of evasion. Thus, I get to blow another 300-400 hoard for the same net effect. That's why many SMART Dragons won't bother upgrading GR at least until claw slots are in (AND WORK -- HINT HINT).

If for a second you do what seems to be impossible for most dragon players and asses the merits of the class it does have a great deal going for it. But every dragon wants to compare themselves to a reaver or a beserker or a healer or a mage, when in fact they are none of those things.

I know what the merits of my class are. Dammit, I have been playing it for a year now. I know what I can and cannot do. I know my specific strengths and weaknesses. To assume otherwise is to effectively consider me an idiot, which I hope was not your intent. I don't compare myself to a specific class. I compare my success towards my goals to that of other players who play bipeds who have expended the same (or often much less) effort as I did. I find myself wanting. I want to know why. Is it something I can fix myself? What can I do? Where can I go? How can I resolve this?

The short answer is no, I can't do anything about it as it currently stands, but repeatedly point it out, and try to drum up support for it to be fixed. Yes, that includes coming up with possible solutions, ONCE the problem is acknowledged and understood by people who are in a position to correct it (ie, the developers). Support for it from the playerbase would help, if naught but for morale, though it isn't necessary. However, derision and general attacks on the premise will be met with fervent defense, because it is tantamount to telling me that my take on something that I have lived through / experienced for the last year is "wrong".

Hell I would multi dragon adv if I could [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]. Spiked scales and some HoT's would be nice

Why? Biped damage shields do about the same damage and biped heals blow away the Breeze HoTs, especially since they can be teched to the gills. Try a Quick Powered Revitalize V of Purifying sometime; they are awesome.

[Varraven]

Here's the solution:

Provide necessary alterations so that Dragons and Bipeds are interlinked, Dragons can turn into Bipeds and multiclass, Bipeds can transform into Dragons and gain their abilities along with RoP.....we could have it all [I]