My Suggestion for Dragons

[Vesuvius]

Made the change under Magic and Spellcasting Equivilants to Melee Hoard abilities.

[evilkarl]

Hmm I just had an Idea for a caster dragon hoard ability

Call it primal rage.
Recycle: 300 sec
Duration: 60sec
Effects:
Doubles the dragons base power and focus
50% increase to primal skill
Primal spells do 200% damage
-15% delay on spells
HV cost: Same as GR on a tier per tier basis

Casting has better burst damage in general but its always less frequent than melee.

Also I think each time you reach a hoard level you should gain an ability passive stat increase
Even if it was just +1 all stats/skills, +2 health, +1 ac Below 50 and double that above 50. It would add additional strength to a dragon.

+150 all stats and skill
+300 health
+150 armour

Its not much but it would help

[Vesuvius]

Something like that could work as well. There really are many possibilities. The one I gave is just an example, as are many things in this (though I try to keep the numbers given as examples realtively around what they would be).

[DeathTiny]

The system i would like to have for a dragon (to avoid running into a "game-over" too quick) looks like:

A "switch" to choose where the adv.-exp gained goes into ..

If you put it into adv.-levels all will work as it is atm ..
But if you put it to "specialized"-mode you could set the route in what those exp-points will be changedinto ..

A: more armor (lets say 5 armor per "level" in this and to avoid too tough beasts no mob can damage in melee every next levelcould takea much higher exp than the one before .... say30-40% more as the last one did)
B:magic-resistance or wards (same as armor ...)
C: Melee-damage (additional damage for claw-attacks)
D: Spell-damage ( sameas melee but for breath-weapon)
E:AoE-Radius/recast of area-breathspells(getting faster area-timers by maybe 1 or 2%with every level and a radius increase with every 4th or 5th level too. Radius capped at maybe 10 or 12 ..but recast could go up to 40 or 50% shorter timers in higher levels with tons of exp put in here)
F:dex (as armor adding additional 2dex to the dragon per level)
G: str (same as dex)
H: power (same here for power)
I: focus (and focus)
J: HPs(maybe 4/level here and more exp needed per level as for the other statz and armor)
K: Heal-mastery (heals over time will bring back additional points of HP with higher levels in here)

With those options dragons could boost their melee/breath damage .. they could gain some more points for craftskills too with the statz .. and if the player puts enough time and effort into the char they could be the real nasty killers they should be in the endgame.
Caps on those specialized sublevels would not be needed if the exp-curve is high enough... the only thing i would not allow is to gain the spezialized levels first and then start adv.-levels after beeing PLed to death.
Maybe they should set the actual cap %-based of the adv.-level until adv. is at80 or 90+ and then get away with the check.
That would be a valid system for me to finallyplay a dragon for a longer time and to have something to do that does bring benefits to the char.

[Marco]

Hmm I just had an Idea for a caster dragon hoard ability

Call it primal rage.
Recycle: 300 sec
Duration: 60sec
Effects:
Doubles the dragons base power and focus
50% increase to primal skill
Primal spells do 200% damage
-15% delay on spells
HV cost: Same as GR on a tier per tier basis

Casting has better burst damage in general but its always less frequent than melee.

Also I think each time you reach a hoard level you should gain an ability passive stat increase
Even if it was just +1 all stats/skills, +2 health, +1 ac Below 50 and double that above 50. It would add additional strength to a dragon.

+150 all stats and skill
+300 health
+150 armour

Its not much but it would help

I strongly disagree on the +1 all stats/skills part. As of now dragons get 7 evasion/level, plus as Lim level->infinity one addational point per level. 7+1 = 8. In addition there's also about 1.4/points/level from snarl yielding 9.4 (anyone but me see a problem with this?). Then there's your skill points that avarage out to 1.5... 9.4+1.5 = 10.9 (remind me, how much evasion do monks get..?)

Still not done yet though, dexterity. 7/level, + the promote vitality which gives what, 1.2 points avarage? 8.2, add the 1.5 from this and you'll get 9.7.

Anyone but me see a problem with dragons evading about as good as monks?

[Vahrokh]

No, I see a problem with dragons being similar in behavior to a monk in the fullest.

They should act more or less the opposite instead (slow, hard hitting dragons with little evasion and vice versa monks).

[evilkarl]

The numbers were only a suggestion to get the general point across.

I don't see a dragon as being as dextrous as a monk nor anywhere near as evasive the should be slow and hard hitting and not agile...

[Vesuvius]

I was thinking about adding a portion regarding the evasion thing.

Something along the lines of (For Adult Racial Bonus):

8ac*Current Level
25HP*Current Level
(Strength/Power +3)*Current Level
-3 Evasion*Current Level

(Note: The 8ac is a change not a cumulitive bonus to the original 4ac a level. The rest are cumulative as they are not currently race oriented bonuses. Current level would use the highest level, be it crafting or adv)

This would make adults easier to hit, but be able to take more and do abit more damage. What do you guys think?

[Vesuvius]

Added Skills adjustment from 8 a level in tooth and claw/primal to 10 a level before quests.

[Marco]

Added Skills adjustment from 8 a level in tooth and claw/primal to 10 a level before quests.

Do you have any data to support that or are you just flinging out numbers?

[evilkarl]

hmm 10/level before quests would (once the quests are all in) give dragons 11/level in their primary weapon skill. 12/level if you include other things like dragons gift. Seems like a good idea to me for ancient.

[Fireclaw]

When I think of what a dragon should be I think of D&D dragons. Dragons in D&D are a force to be reckoned with. Typically they have:

1. They are at least as fast and usually faster than a human running on the ground.
2. They are vastly faster than a human when they fly, though need room to maneuver and most cannot hover unless they master a special hover feat.
3. They have extremely high armor (which in D&D terms, makes them very difficulty to hit, because their armor deflects most blows).
4. They have damage reduction making them difficult to damage with most weapons (this corresponds to the effect armor has in HZ).
5. Dragons have spell resistance, which makes them have a chance to shrug off spell effects (this corresponds most closely to magic defense in HZ)
6. They have reach due to their long limbs and can hit targets a little further away with melee weapons than a biped with a sword.
7. They can hit very rapidly. While a high level biped in D&D might get 4 attacks using a sword, the dragon gets 6 different attacks each round (bite, 2 claws, 2 wing slaps, tail slap). Base damage on attacks is usually less than a biped weapon, but dragons get a heavy bonus from their incredible strength, which is higher than a biped's.
8. They have an extremely powerful breath weapon. The breath weapon typically does less damage on average than the full round of melee attacks, but has the advantage that it can hit multiple targets. If the dragon can hit at least two targets with its breath weapon, its oten better off using the breath weapon than melee. The breath weapon can be used VERY rapidly (once every 1d4 rounds, which equals once every 6 to 24 seconds). The breath weapon is long-range and can hit over a very large area. It is the dragon's signature weapon.
9. Dragons can cast the same spells as bipeds, though their spell selection is limited (casting like a D&D sorcerer). However, the same challenge rating biped is typically a much stronger spellcaster than the dragon and can cast higher level spells.
10. Dragons have a lot of life - probably 1.5-2x what a biped warrior it might face has. However, they typically do not have very good healing (though some dragon types can cast cleric healing spells).
11. The biggest dragons have some interesting special attacks: They can land on multiple targets in a crush attack. They also have a PBAOE tail slap attack.
12. Dragons can attack with melee, breath or spells while in flight. Until major changes are made in how combat works in Hz, this is not practical.

The above is what I would love to see ancient dragons in HZ having even a fraction of, though it would be impractical giving us all of it due to balance issues. Still something to work towards. If the most powerful dragons had the above, they would finally be the powerful and respected creatures they should be.

[evilkarl]

But your not playing D&D you are playing horizons. They are two different beasts.

Some of these things should be present already pbaoe tail whip for adults would make sense. more health is already in at adult but imo it should be +600 or more as opposed to +200.

Breath weapon is aoe...but it should a) do more damage b) have a much shorter recycle.

In terms of damage.. Dragons should do more they should have 2-3x the strength of a human (1.5-2x that of a giant) and this should cause some nasty pain. Not sure if I agree dragons should attack fast probably as fast as a 2 handed weapon does at present but for more damage

[Jaraiden]

This is not a "tearing" apart, but just a few constructive comments.

Skills:
Dragons should receive 10T&C and 10Primal per level BEFORE any quests or other bonuses. There really is no excuse for 8/Lvl as dragons are not a hybrid class, they are a single pure dragon class.

Hatchlings should have 8/level. Adults 9/level, then Ancients 10/level. To balance with the primary skills of the other races, perhaps the 10 Tooth and claw / 10 levels and 10 Primal / 10 levels given by the trainers should be current (or a package deal - spellcasting the primal only is base, melee the Tooth and claw only is base).

As for Dragon magic, I don't get why AE has 3 spell heal over time Breezes. I would think a simple Revitilize type spell and two Breezes should be good (as in Breeze and Improved Breeze).

Definately need a Promote Mind like spell.

For balance, not all of the other spell classes have the same access to the same spell techniques - lowered resistance, stun-type, damage over time. However, something besides the Damage, Range, and generic Accuracy/Gale/Romp/Piece/Critical Damage would be fitting.

Gifts should have the same limits as those of the other races - no two statistics on one Gift spell (except that Toughness that has some Armor and Health).

Hoard and armor . . . well still natural armor shouldincrease due to a better lore based balancelevels (adventure, craft) and hoard levels. The current 4/adventure level is good for hatchlings, NOT for adults and definately NOT for Ancients. But all of that is in another post.

I agree, per lore, dragons need to derive more of their power from hoard besides + 100 breath weapon damage (after the long delay, if it hits, and long recycle) and + 480 AC (really, max hoard is nice . . . but for + 80 armor?).

Dragon scales are jewelry (without the gem requirements) . . . I'd suggest no change on their properties. Change the convoluted, assymetrical gaining of scale slots though, but that would take too much AE programming and introduce MANY bugs. Again, per Istarian lore, natural armor should dominate.

In summary, adult dragons should be more distinguishable from hatchlings in statistics, skills, and abilities. Same for Ancients from adults. Then there is reward for effort (adventure, forced crafting, hoard) for players of dragons to have the same sense of game enjoyment as players of the other races (especially at the adult and Ancient levels).


What we really need is SOMETHING, ANYTHING from AE of what they are doing to complete the dragon race. A "special December" would mean that all dragon skill tasks are in place to 100 AND bug free. Something which has challenged AE for over a year.

[Vesuvius]

Do you have any data to support that or are you just flinging out numbers?

On the basis of dragons being the only characters with access to tooth and claw and primal. They are pure class skills, they should progress faster than 8 per level, regardless of ability quests.