Injustices moved: Lets discuss Multiclassing. That's general...

[Seranthor]

No downside?, come now Kumu do you really think we are that stupid to think that Multiclassing has no downside? a 2x100 with absolutely no other classes has an adventure rating of 111... if you add a 3rd 100 then their adventure rating becomes 122... but there is no down side is there?... other than at 120+ you are getting cr*p for exp from anything less than 85. If the game is so utterly broken to you then quit, stuff a sock in it, or make reasonable logical suggestions for its fixing... continued whining and moaning does NOT win you any supporters to your cause nor does it endear you to AE nor any potential supporters.


Nuf Said!

[PJ]

Hmmm Death penalty counting down....I guess you get the benefit of my wisdom.

Comparing a single classed biped to a dragon (disregarding hoard moves). The dragon stacks up as a fairly average class. Its not particularly powerful but is versatile. There are classes that do more damage but those classes in and of themselves have substantial holes. From a balance perspective relative to a dragon some classes are probably overpowered, some underpowered, some at the level. There's no disputing that.

Multiclassing benefits of a class only come out when that class is at or close to the same level as your main. Being 100/100 has substantial benefits. Being 100/50 however the benefit isn't nearly as great.

So compare a biped with multiple 100's to a dragon 100 (now with hoard moves). The biped gains the various benefits of the associated classes. The level 100 dragon uses hoard moves to increase his power and overcome some of these holes. He isn't better or worse, just different.

The difference comes in that while hoard and extra levels both take time to build. The use of hoard moves drains hoard size however and must be replenished. Biped subclasses dont' decay. Once gained are there forever. This is the disparity in my eyes.

Hoard moves appear to have been a shortsighted quick fix to dragons. One that while it does most of the job, falls short somewhat.

Solution?

A.) Eliminate Multiclassing & Hoard then balance as needed

Bad Idea Everybody leaves game indisgust

B.) Eliminate Multiclassing But Hoarding and Gold Rage For everybody

It'd certainly gives the "Equality" I keep hearing asked for. But would probably have the same overall effect as A.

C.) Keep Multiclassing (maybe some small tweaks) & Eliminate/Reduce Hoard attacks While providing Some parallel to multiclassing for dragons. That replicates the time/cash investment while providing a permanent increase in power/rating

[Pharcellus]

Seranthor -> Doesn't seem to have any significant effect on people's ability to attain their 6th, 7th, 8th, etc classes to L100. usually takes 1-2 weeks. Maybe 3 on the outside for the 9th or 10th one.

It happens. I see it all the time. I've been in the hunting groups with those who were doing it, watched how fast they levelled.

Rating is no longer a significant downside to multiclassing with the way XP is given out now.

[Blue Hasia]

Seranthor after a biped gets to his second 100 school they can fly to there 3rd 100 all they do is jion there friends hunting purple flys and we ge them from lvl 1 to lvl 50 in about 2-3 days and then then to 90 in just a few more days!!!!!! so tell is that baloced to gain such more power in such a short time

the reson why they lvl so fast is VEcuse there rating is out of balonced. they are lvl 1 but have a reating of 60+ so when we hunt lvl 118 flys they gain ubber xp and fly through there lvls

[Khoal]

It seems that every time a topic like this gets brought up, it turns into a non-productive two-way shooting gallery.

So without bothering to comment on the age-old fight, I'll provide an idea or two.

Idea #1) Limit the number of classes that can be leveled, or place a limit on how far certain classes can go. For example (and only as an example): You are limited to reaching level 100 in only X number of classes. However, you can decide not to max out on those X classes, and become more of a generalist in other classes - maximum of lvl50 in Y classes, say. I suppose the closest thing to it in game already is the TP system: you have a certain maximum number of TPs you can spend, so you have to decide where you want to spend them (all spread out, or in only a few highly developed zones).

Idea #2) Give dragons alternate classes so they can multi-class as well.

Idea #3) Given Ideas #1 and #2, apply the same constraints to all player races.

Idea #4) Develop a time machine, go back to when the game was first in production, and delete the word "dragon" from the race list, and add in its place "dragon-kin." Everyone has an opinion on what a dragon should be, but almost anything can go with dragon-kin.

[Seranthor]

I would actually reinstate the dragon 'classes'... dragon mage, etc... give them the opportunity to multiclass and see the benefits and the associated pitfalls... I think its more than fair and more than logical... give them exactly what they are asking for... :)


:)

then they can learn to use their TP wisely, they can learn to use their spells wisely, they can then learn to juggle their spell books like most peds and have all the wonderous joys of being multi-classed.

[Vesuvius]

Personally I dont want multiclassing or schoolsfor dragons. I think its one of the perks of being a biped, the freedom of choice. The rating may make a difference for multiclassing before 100, but after you get your first 100 school the rating increase is meaningless.You arealready 100, now your just enhancing that 100 with others. An exp hurt means nothing as far as a downside is concerned, it just makes it slightly more challenging to progress AFTER hitting 100.

I dont want to see multiclassing for dragons, I want to see the existing and mabey a few new systems make up for the LACK of multiclassing. Something different and unique to what bipeds have. Something that for an equal amount of effort can acomplish different but equally effective rewards. I want to see the progression of being a dragon be difficult as it is, but then have a great payoff at the end for enduring through it. They ARE different playing experiences, but just because they are different is no excuse to say one can be subpar and that is acceptable. Hoard would be the best place to START fleshing out dragons.

[Blue Hasia]

im with you vesuvuis thats why my idea is to let dragons lvl cap go as high as the highest rating biped on sever or somthing so right now on choas I know a biped with a rating of 153 let dragons lvl up to 153 or some were in that ragne let dragons lvl cap be a step abpve bipeds so we can be at least some whatbe in par with them

[Jaraiden]

As was posted, multiclassing is "grandfathered." AE can and should limit the total number of adventure levels, but need to be VERY quick in doing it. That way players would need to make choices . . . drop schools to level other schools.

That is for levels 1 to 100.

AE has mentioned of looking again at the classes. How abilities and skills are transferred need a HARD look. There is too much mix and matching to make an optimal battle toon with abilities and spells from here and there. There are no true classes when multiclassing is taken to the Nth degree. In the end the only difference amid biped classes are appearances (races) and even that is marginal statistic wise. A sense of roleplaying and vision of a character can easily get lost when leveling other classes for statistic, skill, or ability boosts.

And multiclassing is an alternative to wisely spending training points. Why be careful in using them when a player can multiclass another school (adventure or crafting) for it. Such as a fitter Monk, spellcrafting Druid, etc.

For dragons, they need to allow Dragon statistics to be based off the highest of Adventure or Crafting levels. That will aid dragons that enjoy leveling their crafting side more than the fighting side.

Levels 101 and higher.

Now for the epic levels, 101 and higher. The solution is simple. No multiclassing. Choose a class your character is and advance in your chosen adventure profession. If you are a Reaver, be known as a epic Reaver.

AE may slowly adjust the caps later, but just realize that character development will end at 120 and that only items from events will help improve it. And these items should aid dragon development also (such has been severely lacking since January with the exception of the 3 day Withered Scales event).

[Vesuvius]

Raising the level cap for dragons is an idea, but I think that the foundations of how dragons are set up need to be solid before building the tower up further. Raising the level cap for ancients would be interesting. Also, if we were able to say get to 200, then we should start to see new and interesting abilities in addition to upgrades to the oldrather than be a level 100 dragon with Ravage VI.

Thing is, is that doing such takes alot of effort on the Dev side. While that effort could be worth it, I feel it would be better spent first on finishing what is already there. Hoard, Quests, some tweaking to the school itself, and scales.

[Vesuvius]

I agree. I think the 'epic levels' should both be harder and make a more class defining impact and be restricted to only one school.

I dont think multiclassing should be limited otherwise. I have no problems with people continuing to put effort into their characters. AE has acknowledged that classes overlap too much, I imagine it will be ravamped one day.

However, as I have stated before, dragons need a multiclassing equivilent through other systems. They should be able to progress just as far as a biped character.

[hobojo]

Most definetely agree on Levels 100+ being limited to one class for adventurers.

Dunno about crafting though...

[Tigris]

I could totally go for 100+ being limited to one class. I only have one class I wanna take up any higher anyway.

But I couldn't deal with that in crafting. Not with Teir 6 Master Forms coming. [:^)]

[Jah]

I enjoy the game's multiclass aspect immensely, but I am not a fan of the extreme to which it has gone. I saw a player with 170+ rateing which makes no sense to me given that no one should gain xp for hunting 50+ lvs below themselves ( or 50+ above but that is another issue ). Not that I tested, but it seems thata +10 rateing will cut your xp in half when hunting at level, but after that the xp loss due to rateing is minimal per pt.

I play a dragon and 4 bipedsthat I only dual class past lv20;simply toenjoy the different play styles of various classes. I can understand a 3rd full as it can still class compliment w/o being drowned by the other 2.Battlemage literallyneeds 3 full classes. Going further with same character players are almost never playing the new class, they are simply useing all their back up classes to push the new class..I don't even see the enjoyment in that.

Given how multi-classing would lose a lot of it's effectiveness if you were forced to take only 1 for last 20 lvs I can't agree with that as it would kill a lot of players. I wouldn't mind a 3 class limit past 100 thento 1 if there is some kind of endgame.

I think dragons need to wait a month and see if ancient isas Uber as AE said it would be when game was released. Ancients may dominate... if not then look into adjustments.

[Jaraiden]

Given how multi-classing would lose a lot of it's effectiveness if you were forced to take only 1 for last 20 lvs I can't agree with that as it would kill a lot of players. I wouldn't mind a 3 class limit past 100 thento 1 if there is some kind of endgame.

I think dragons need to wait a month and see if ancient isas Uber as AE said it would be when game was released. Ancients may dominate... if not then look into adjustments.

It is not "forced to take only 1." Players should see their character as one of a primary school and opt to progress further in their favored school. And there won't be an "endgame" as the Withered Aegis OR interracial conflicts will always abound.

Ancient won't be "Uber" and AE never has said that. Perhaps a dragon beta tester can comment further on that. And the "Become an Ancient Helian/Lunus" series of questswill not be playable until February, at least (only now are the hatchling to adult "Become a True Helian/Lunus" series of quests are MOSTLY fixed).


Epic crafting levels

That is a hard one, as crafting statistics helps on the adventure side (again, spellcrafting Druid). What would be a good number? Maybe 3 classes (pick among crafting and construction).

Another post can deal with Epic crafting schools. I think players want the ability for uniqueness there with formulas (perhaps available only for schools at 101+) in that "I'm one of the few that can make this" . . . so limiting crafting multiclassing could be a compromise between longer playability (crafting or just leveling crafting for statistic benefits) and unique crafting talents (I can do tier VI of this, but can't of X . . . need to find a craft master in X).

[evilkarl]

The rating system is effective. It does make leveling more difficult in you need to kill more higher level creatures in order to gain equivilant xp.

Some multiclassed players have experienced discrimination by other players as well as a result of having a high rating.

Onlying being able to take one school to 120 would be fine..so long as when they raise the level cap again the others can advance to that stage.

The time to level up additional classes varies depending on the classes you have already. Eg if you have a nature caster and are raising a priest school it is easier than raising a pure melee or a mage school. If you have a mage background and choose to level healer you dont get a great deal of benefit from mage in healer.

The people that add a class to 100 in 1-3 weeks are generaly sticking to one school of magic (priest or arcane). Even still if you solo it takes longer than a first class. If you can't heal it will take a great deal of effort etc.

There are lots of restrictions on multiclassing some might like to see more and of course some probably less.

I like the idea suggested in the other forum for alternate advancement post 100 for dragons. Then they could just farm xp and beef themselves up.

[Anubus-Earth]

<Must resist urge to rant... muct stay calm.... argggg>

Ok this post is pretty much somone setting up a fire, pouring the gas, leaving a box of matches next to it, then walking away and watching from a bush.

But here we go anyway.

High rating is bad, its a penalty, its also going to make advancing class's past 100 much harder, especialy with the levels of the XP huntable mobs that are currently in the game.
Leveling a multiclass is easy, but time consuming. It gets easier if you have a good armour use and a set of ironsilk armour you can wear.
Dragons are a good race, they have many things going for them, although many dragon players feel persicuted and thus spend alot of time in a perminant deathslide snapping at bipeds or telling us there whoes.
I can be outdamaged by a dragon, they have great hoards abuilities.
No dragon I know wants to raise his hoard, they considder it very hard work (it is) and a waste of time (its not).
I am possitive a dragon could make 1m hoard a day IF he was 100 crafter and had the services of a biped to help. This makes a dragon need some help, thus the dragons start the I want to be able to do it alone line... you can, it just takes SO much longer.
Bipeds are NOT independant of one another, they need eachothers help all the time.

Lastly, you do not HAVE to play a dragon, you can, if you with make a biped and play it instead. You made a choise, many made an educated choise and what you have is a viable race/class. If you dont think it is, then make a biped. I've seen this happen, the dragon player ALWAYS returns to being a dragon.

More lastly... dragon scales ARE NOT ARMOUR (sorry need to chill) its jewelry not barding. Small magical scales replace a single scale in the area its placed on your doll. Yes you cant armour tech your armour scale, a jeweker cant armour tech armour jewelry either. You dont GET produced armour, you get a nice 8/level and a bonus of 4/level from hoard, I may be off on those numbers, but they seem right.


Ok Im backing away from the matches......

[Jah]

It is not "forced to take only 1." Players should see their character as one of a primary school and opt to progress further in their favored school. And there won't be an "endgame" as the Withered Aegis OR interracial conflicts will always abound.

I have no idea what your refering to.. the idea to only allow 1 class past lv100 has been suggested by a # of posts in this thread. Call it allowed or forced it is the same, just viewed from a different angle. Since Battlemage was designed as a multi-class "shell"and is pathetic on it's own that would be unfair to battlemages as they gain 8 skill lv in all combat skills [ cept 9 magic def ]. They would not gain 1 skill point from lv 100-120 since they multi-classed to get +10s in melee and magic up to lv 100 for 1000 skill and 8 X 120 = 960. 20 lvs with out 1 gain in skill that is absurd to even suggest as an option for them.

Ancient won't be "Uber" and AE never has said that.

The exactcomment on Ancient's from AE was that they "will be the most powerful class in the game".

[Vesuvius]

<Must resist urge to rant... muct stay calm.... argggg>

Ok this post is pretty much somone setting up a fire, pouring the gas, leaving a box of matches next to it, then walking away and watching from a bush.

But here we go anyway.

High rating is bad, its a penalty, its also going to make advancing class's past 100 much harder, especialy with the levels of the XP huntable mobs that are currently in the game.
Leveling a multiclass is easy, but time consuming. It gets easier if you have a good armour use and a set of ironsilk armour you can wear.
Dragons are a good race, they have many things going for them, although many dragon players feel persicuted and thus spend alot of time in a perminant deathslide snapping at bipeds or telling us there whoes.
I can be outdamaged by a dragon, they have great hoards abuilities.
No dragon I know wants to raise his hoard, they considder it very hard work (it is) and a waste of time (its not).
I am possitive a dragon could make 1m hoard a day IF he was 100 crafter and had the services of a biped to help. This makes a dragon need some help, thus the dragons start the I want to be able to do it alone line... you can, it just takes SO much longer.
Bipeds are NOT independant of one another, they need eachothers help all the time.

Lastly, you do not HAVE to play a dragon, you can, if you with make a biped and play it instead. You made a choise, many made an educated choise and what you have is a viable race/class. If you dont think it is, then make a biped. I've seen this happen, the dragon player ALWAYS returns to being a dragon.

More lastly... dragon scales ARE NOT ARMOUR (sorry need to chill) its jewelry not barding. Small magical scales replace a single scale in the area its placed on your doll. Yes you cant armour tech your armour scale, a jeweker cant armour tech armour jewelry either. You dont GET produced armour, you get a nice 8/level and a bonus of 4/level from hoard, I may be off on those numbers, but they seem right.


Ok Im backing away from the matches......

What you just posted is the classic example of a biped that knows nothing of how dragons work posting like they do. 1M a day? Yeah right, mabey if you had a team of people working 24 hourswith unlimitedvaults.I have a maxed hoard and I can tell you now it was for the most part wasted effort for the pathetic reward I got. Dragonscales are not armor?So you are saying 4ac (NOT 8)x 100for400ac at level 100 is acceptable as natural armor?

Dragons snap at bipeds because dragons are tired of ignorant bipeds making posts like this. If you dont know what you are talking about, dont post.

[Vesuvius]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Jaraiden wrote:
It is not "forced to take only 1." Players should see their character as one of a primary school and opt to progress further in their favored school. And there won't be an "endgame" as the Withered Aegis OR interracial conflicts will always abound.


I have no idea what your refering to.. the idea to only allow 1 class past lv100 has been suggested by a # of posts in this thread. Call it allowed or forced it is the same, just viewed from a different angle. Since Battlemage was designed as a multi-class "shell"and is pathetic on it's own that would be unfair to battlemages as they gain 8 skill lv in all combat skills [ cept 9 magic def ]. They would not gain 1 skill point from lv 100-120 since they multi-classed to get +10s in melee and magic up to lv 100 for 1000 skill and 8 X 120 = 960. 20 lvs with out 1 gain in skill that is absurd to even suggest as an option for them.

Battlemages would not be worthless if the epic levels were done correctly. Battlemages would recieve battlemage specific spells and abilities to complement their skills, not lesser skills to use other's abilities. If they just followed the current progression for another 20 levels then I dont see any reason to limit the 'epic' levels to one class as in that case they would not be epic at all.